www.python.org/doc and docs.python.org hotfixed

[Thomas Wouters-4]

I hotfixed docs.python.org and www.python.org/doc with some cutesy improv -- the URLs changed from .../lib/ to ../library/, and any HTML pages inside them are completely different. So, any http://docs.python.org/lib/... URL now redirects to the toplevel http://docs.python.org/library/ (and similar for www.python.org/doc/lib.) If anyone feels particularly frustrated by the old URLs breaking, I wouldn't mind adding a redirection for each individual URL as long as I don't have to build that mapping :-)

Georg is working on fixing the main www.python.org/doc page, I believe, as well as providing downloadable docs.

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[Antoine Pitrou]

Thomas Wouters <thomas <at> python.org> writes:
>
> If anyone feels particularly frustrated by the old URLs breaking, I wouldn't
mind adding a redirection for each individual URL as long as I don't have to
build that mapping

Well in general URLs aren't supposed to break (except the ones which are
deliberately temporary). Could a RewriteRule do the trick?


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[Thomas Wouters-4]

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 12:44, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@...> wrote:

Thomas Wouters <thomas <at> python.org> writes:
>
> If anyone feels particularly frustrated by the old URLs breaking, I wouldn't
mind adding a redirection for each individual URL as long as I don't have to
build that mapping

Well in general URLs aren't supposed to break (except the ones which are
deliberately temporary). Could a RewriteRule do the trick?

Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)

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[Antoine Pitrou]

>
> Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single
> one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for
> most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is
> quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better
> mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)

My bad. I thought it was just a matter of doing a generic substitution.
Well, then we'll have to live with it I suppose :)

Regards

Antoine.


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[Doug Hellmann-3]

On Oct 2, 2008, at 7:28 AM, Thomas Wouters wrote:

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 12:44, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@...> wrote:

Thomas Wouters <thomas <at> python.org> writes:
>
> If anyone feels particularly frustrated by the old URLs breaking, I wouldn't
mind adding a redirection for each individual URL as long as I don't have to
build that mapping

Well in general URLs aren't supposed to break (except the ones which are
deliberately temporary). Could a RewriteRule do the trick?

Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)

Perhaps it has already been suggested and rejected for some reason, but we could include the major/minor version numbers in the URLs.  That would make it easier to rewrite old URLs, and I assume there will be 2.x and 3.x documentation available online for some period of time?

docs.python.org/lib/* could redirect to docs.python.org/2.5/lib/*

docs.pyhton.org/ (note no *) could redirect to docs.python.org/2.6/ and include a link to docs.python.org/3.0/

That way all of the old references (in Google and bookmarks) would still work.

Perhaps we should restore the old version of the files until this is resolved?  Being redirected to the top landing page is a little disconcerting if you come to the site through a search engine and aren't familiar with the organization of the manual.  For example, I went to look for the documentation on how slots work, and ended up at the top of the reference manual.  The local search didn't work (no results), "slots" isn't in the index, and google still has the old URL.

Doug

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[Georg Brandl-2]

Doug Hellmann schrieb:

>> Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single
>> one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for
>> most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is
>> quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better
>> mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)
>
> Perhaps it has already been suggested and rejected for some reason, but
> we could include the major/minor version numbers in the URLs.  That
> would make it easier to rewrite old URLs, and I assume there will be 2.x
> and 3.x documentation available online for some period of time?
>
> docs.python.org/lib/* could redirect to docs.python.org/2.5/lib/*

That would be possible, but not sensible IMO -- it doesn't make people
update their links, instead keeps links to outdated documentation.

> docs.pyhton.org/ (note no *) could redirect to docs.python.org/2.6/ and
> include a link to docs.python.org/3.0/

We already have archived versioned docs at http://www.python.org/doc/X.Y.

> That way all of the old references (in Google and bookmarks) would still
> work.
>
> Perhaps we should restore the old version of the files until this is
> resolved?  Being redirected to the top landing page is a little
> disconcerting if you come to the site through a search engine and aren't
> familiar with the organization of the manual.  For example, I went to
> look for the documentation on how slots work, and ended up at the top of
> the reference manual.  The local search didn't work (no results),
> "slots" isn't in the index, and google still has the old URL.

__slots__ is in the index (with the underscores). The local search shows me
__slots__ as the first result when I search for "__slots__" or "slots".

As for Google, I can only assume it will soon update its index.

Nevertheless, I will come up with a mapping for the old module URLs,
which is relatively easy.

Georg

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[Nick Coghlan]

Doug Hellmann wrote:
> Perhaps it has already been suggested and rejected for some reason, but
> we could include the major/minor version numbers in the URLs.  That
> would make it easier to rewrite old URLs, and I assume there will be 2.x
> and 3.x documentation available online for some period of time?

The old doc directories are already kept around (all the way back to 1.4
in fact: http://www.python.org/doc/1.4/)

As a quick fix for the old links, a rewrite rule to map such links to
the 2.5 docs seems like a very good idea to me. Since old URLs all use
abbreviations in the directory name (tut, lib, mac, ref, ext, api, doc,
inst, dist), it should be straightforward to redirect them without
affecting the links to the new docs (tutorial, using, reference, howto,
extending, c-api, install, distutils, documenting).


> Perhaps we should restore the old version of the files until this is
> resolved?  Being redirected to the top landing page is a little
> disconcerting if you come to the site through a search engine and aren't
> familiar with the organization of the manual.

A redirect rule to the 2.5.2 docs for the old naming scheme is probably
a better short-term solution.

>  For example, I went to
> look for the documentation on how slots work, and ended up at the top of
> the reference manual.  The local search didn't work (no results),
> "slots" isn't in the index, and google still has the old URL.

The quick search is actually working for me these days (it wasn't for a
while when the new docs were still in development). (e.g. the first hit
I get when searching for "slots" now is
http://www.python.org/doc/2.6/reference/datamodel.html?highlight=slots#__slots__)

I believe it's a Javascript based search though, so there may be issues
with browser compatibility (or user's with JS disabled).

Cheers,
Nick.

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[Rhamphoryncus]

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Georg Brandl <g.brandl@...> wrote:

> Doug Hellmann schrieb:
>
>>> Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single
>>> one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for
>>> most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is
>>> quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better
>>> mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)
>>
>> Perhaps it has already been suggested and rejected for some reason, but
>> we could include the major/minor version numbers in the URLs.  That
>> would make it easier to rewrite old URLs, and I assume there will be 2.x
>> and 3.x documentation available online for some period of time?
>>
>> docs.python.org/lib/* could redirect to docs.python.org/2.5/lib/*
>
> That would be possible, but not sensible IMO -- it doesn't make people
> update their links, instead keeps links to outdated documentation.
>
>> docs.pyhton.org/ (note no *) could redirect to docs.python.org/2.6/ and
>> include a link to docs.python.org/3.0/
>
> We already have archived versioned docs at http://www.python.org/doc/X.Y.

Why not use versioned URLs, but with a  link at the top of old pages
saying they're outdated, linking to the new version.  Either way they
should update their links, but this way you don't shoot them in the
foot to do it.

Breaking old links should be avoided if at all possible.


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[Nick Coghlan]

Georg Brandl wrote:
> Nevertheless, I will come up with a mapping for the old module URLs,
> which is relatively easy.

Best solution of all :)

I was actually only suggesting redirecting to the old docs until such a
mapping was available - but if that mapping will be available fairly
soon, then bumping old links up to the base URL for a day or two won't
be too bad.

Cheers,
Nick.

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[Georg Brandl-2]

Adam Olsen schrieb:

> On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Georg Brandl <g.brandl@...> wrote:
>> Doug Hellmann schrieb:
>>
>>>> Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single
>>>> one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for
>>>> most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is
>>>> quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better
>>>> mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)
>>>
>>> Perhaps it has already been suggested and rejected for some reason, but
>>> we could include the major/minor version numbers in the URLs.  That
>>> would make it easier to rewrite old URLs, and I assume there will be 2.x
>>> and 3.x documentation available online for some period of time?
>>>
>>> docs.python.org/lib/* could redirect to docs.python.org/2.5/lib/*
>>
>> That would be possible, but not sensible IMO -- it doesn't make people
>> update their links, instead keeps links to outdated documentation.
>>
>>> docs.pyhton.org/ (note no *) could redirect to docs.python.org/2.6/ and
>>> include a link to docs.python.org/3.0/
>>
>> We already have archived versioned docs at http://www.python.org/doc/X.Y.
>
> Why not use versioned URLs, but with a  link at the top of old pages
> saying they're outdated, linking to the new version.  Either way they
> should update their links, but this way you don't shoot them in the
> foot to do it.

If linking to the new version could be done easily, we could as well directly
redirect. The problem is that having that mapping in the first place is hard.

Georg

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[Doug Hellmann-3]

On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:17 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:

> Doug Hellmann schrieb:
>
>>> Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single
>>> one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for
>>> most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is
>>> quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better
>>> mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)
>>
>> Perhaps it has already been suggested and rejected for some reason,  
>> but
>> we could include the major/minor version numbers in the URLs.  That
>> would make it easier to rewrite old URLs, and I assume there will  
>> be 2.x
>> and 3.x documentation available online for some period of time?
>>
>> docs.python.org/lib/* could redirect to docs.python.org/2.5/lib/*
>
> That would be possible, but not sensible IMO -- it doesn't make people
> update their links, instead keeps links to outdated documentation.

The documentation isn't outdated if you're still running Python 2.5,  
as a lot of people will be.  Not everyone gets to upgrade right away  
when there's a new release.  For example, the product we build at work  
depends on 2.5 and we don't have time in our schedule to upgrade right  
away.  It may be several months before we do.

>> docs.pyhton.org/ (note no *) could redirect to docs.python.org/2.6/  
>> and
>> include a link to docs.python.org/3.0/
>
> We already have archived versioned docs at http://www.python.org/doc/X.Y 
> .

Great, so we can just redirect the old links over there.  If you can  
make them point to the correct form of the new docs, that would be  
even better, but at least sending them to the old docs means they  
point to *something* useful.

>> That way all of the old references (in Google and bookmarks) would  
>> still
>> work.
>>
>> Perhaps we should restore the old version of the files until this is
>> resolved?  Being redirected to the top landing page is a little
>> disconcerting if you come to the site through a search engine and  
>> aren't
>> familiar with the organization of the manual.  For example, I went to
>> look for the documentation on how slots work, and ended up at the  
>> top of
>> the reference manual.  The local search didn't work (no results),
>> "slots" isn't in the index, and google still has the old URL.
>
> __slots__ is in the index (with the underscores). The local search  
> shows me
> __slots__ as the first result when I search for "__slots__" or  
> "slots".

OK, searching for "slots" at http://docs.python.org found several  
results this time.  I don't know why it would have given me no results  
the last time, but I found what I needed.

Doug

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[Doug Hellmann-3]

On Oct 2, 2008, at 8:34 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:

>
> If linking to the new version could be done easily, we could as well  
> directly
> redirect. The problem is that having that mapping in the first place  
> is hard.


I was looking for the easy route.  If the layout of the new docs  
changed completely, anything that starts with the old abbreviations (/
lib/, /tut/, /ref/, etc.) could just go over to the 2.5.2 docs,  
right?  You don't need to map every sub-section to its new URL unless  
you feel really strongly that links to pages in the old organization  
should point to the new location.

Doug

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[Tres Seaver]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Georg Brandl wrote:

> Adam Olsen schrieb:
>> On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:17 AM, Georg Brandl <g.brandl@...> wrote:
>>> Doug Hellmann schrieb:
>>>
>>>>> Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single
>>>>> one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for
>>>>> most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is
>>>>> quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better
>>>>> mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)
>>>> Perhaps it has already been suggested and rejected for some reason, but
>>>> we could include the major/minor version numbers in the URLs.  That
>>>> would make it easier to rewrite old URLs, and I assume there will be 2.x
>>>> and 3.x documentation available online for some period of time?
>>>>
>>>> docs.python.org/lib/* could redirect to docs.python.org/2.5/lib/*
>>> That would be possible, but not sensible IMO -- it doesn't make people
>>> update their links, instead keeps links to outdated documentation.
>>>
>>>> docs.pyhton.org/ (note no *) could redirect to docs.python.org/2.6/ and
>>>> include a link to docs.python.org/3.0/
>>> We already have archived versioned docs at http://www.python.org/doc/X.Y.
>> Why not use versioned URLs, but with a  link at the top of old pages
>> saying they're outdated, linking to the new version.  Either way they
>> should update their links, but this way you don't shoot them in the
>> foot to do it.
>
> If linking to the new version could be done easily, we could as well directly
> redirect. The problem is that having that mapping in the first place is hard.

Why would you remove the old docs (ones with 2.5 in the URL)?  They
still provide value for folks who can't yet move to 2.6 / 3.0;  forcibly
redirecting a versioned URL to "current" can't possibley be sane.


Tres.
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[Georg Brandl-2]

Tres Seaver schrieb:
> Georg Brandl wrote:

>>>>> docs.pyhton.org/ (note no *) could redirect to docs.python.org/2.6/ and
>>>>> include a link to docs.python.org/3.0/
>>>> We already have archived versioned docs at http://www.python.org/doc/X.Y.
>>> Why not use versioned URLs, but with a  link at the top of old pages
>>> saying they're outdated, linking to the new version.  Either way they
>>> should update their links, but this way you don't shoot them in the
>>> foot to do it.
>
>> If linking to the new version could be done easily, we could as well directly
>> redirect. The problem is that having that mapping in the first place is hard.
>
> Why would you remove the old docs (ones with 2.5 in the URL)?  They
> still provide value for folks who can't yet move to 2.6 / 3.0;  forcibly
> redirecting a versioned URL to "current" can't possibley be sane.

That's true; it's also not what I meant. The versioned docs will of course
always stay there. The question is what to do for URLs that refer to
docs.python.org, but with old filenames.

Georg

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[Nick Coghlan]

Georg Brandl wrote:
> That's true; it's also not what I meant. The versioned docs will of course
> always stay there. The question is what to do for URLs that refer to
> docs.python.org, but with old filenames.

I still like the idea of redirecting such URLs to the old 2.5.2 docs as
a short-term fix, with a more complex remapping to the appropriate 2.6
files when it is available.

(Whether or not the first part is worth doing obviously depends on how
much time you expect the second part to take).

Cheers,
Nick.

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[smontanaro]

    >> Not a single one, no. The URLs *all* changed. There is not a single
    >> one that's the same. We may be able to do a single rewrite rule for
    >> most of the module-*.html URLs, but everything else -- and there is
    >> quite a lot of 'else' in the 2.5-and-earlier docs -- needs a better
    >> mapping. Feel free to send me that mapping :-)

    Antoine> My bad. I thought it was just a matter of doing a generic
    Antoine> substitution.  Well, then we'll have to live with it I suppose
    Antoine> :)

Unfortunately, without some mapping the search engines will toss everything
out.  While they will eventually get around to fetching
http://docs.python.org/ and traversing the tree of pages, but that might
take awhile.  I won't have time for the next day or two to scan the docs
error log, but if I can come up with a list of the ten most frequent
failures I suspect we can easily define RewriteRule directives for them.

Skip
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