question that i wonder on

[Roland Wiench]

Hello Norm,

There is two ways that I could uses a clutch unit.  First I went to my Dodge
Power Transmission Dealer who sells all type of power drive units, plus the
taper lock units, pulleys, drive shafts etc, and ask them how much will a
inline Dodge electric clutch coupler would cost and they said it would cost
them over $1000.00 to purchase a very uncommon unit.

I then went to the second way, which was down to my independent Auto Parts
store.  I wanted to see any of the new A/C clutches they have and see if I
can couple or connect it to a drive shaft with I can install a solid steel
double V pulley on it.

The guy said, wait a minute and went into the back and brought out a huge
old air conditional compressor that had a very large clutch unit on it which
they took off a diesel truck.  He said here, see what you can do with this.
We normally have to toss these anyway.

I broke this unit down, and the drive shaft had plenty of length and was 3/4
inch in diameter.  So far $0.00 cost.  I went back to the Dodge dealer and
pick up a 1-1/8 inch diameter cold roll steel shaft that had a full length
key way on it and bore for a 3/4 hole about 10 inches long.

This shaft slid over the A/C shaft and welded it on.  Rework the clutch unit
with a permanent seal bearing.  These units have a friction type bushing
which is lubricated by the compressor oil, so that had to be change.  I
first tested out the bushing by packing it with heavy white bearing grease
and adding a zirk to grease it once in awhile.

Pick up a 5 inch double steel industrial pulley, to go on the pilot shaft of
the motor with taper lock bushing.  A double VX 6 industrial drive belts and
a idle pulley all by Dodge Power.  Cost is about $100.00.

I use the existing Dodge face bearings that are mounted on both sides to
hold a existing 4 grove pulley.  Just slide out the existing shaft and
install the electric clutch with the shaft attach to it.

If you are just going to drive a A/C unit, just use the clutch on the A/C
compressor which is already there.  These clutches are control by the A/C
relay which is in turn control by the high pressure switch and a low
pressure switch which will not allow the compressor to run if you lose
pressure.

If you are using a a three wire or even a 6 wire industrial alternator like
I have, the regulator circuits can be turn off or on.  Turning the regulator
off, the alternator will still free wheel without any power output.

Anytime you press the accelerator, a micro switch then will operated a relay
to turn off these units.  As you release the accelerator, it's turn on these
units.

You can have a on console or dash selector switches to either have these
units work full time or in the de-accelerator mode.

I would test out the electrical control first before trying a clutch unit.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Norm Woodward" <normw@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using regen energy for air conditioning

> Roland, where did you get the clutch units?  I am currently running A/C
> off the pilot shaft of the traction motor full time, but would like the
> option.  Thanks.
>
> ..
> Norm
> http://www.wacparts.com
>
>
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Doug,
> >
> > This is exactly what I do with my EV accessory drive.  The pilot shaft
> > of
> > the main motor is connected to my accessories unit with a electric
> > clutch
> > not only to the A/C compressor, but also to a rotating
> > inverter-alternator
> > and a vacuum pump that is control by the micro switch on the accelerator
> > control.
> >
> > There is also a bank of selector switches that can program the sequence
> > of
> > operation any way I want or stay in one drive method.
> >
> > The Zilla does not have regen yet, but may have in the future according
> > to
> > Otmar.  So I had to do something to slow my EV down long steep icy
> > hills.
> > So instead of having the three accessory drive motors running the
> > accessory
> > units while the EV is going down these hills,  the micro switch operates
> > a
> > selector contactor unit, something like a reversing contactor, where it
> > runs
> > the accessories motors using the main battery power.
> >
> > As the accelerator is let up, the micro switch then turns off the
> > contactor
> > which switches the main battery power off and then turns on the electric
> > clutch which connects the main motor pilot shaft to the accessory units.
> >
> > Every day I climb a very steep hill from my home for about a mile to the
> > highest point in the city.  During this climb, the main battery power is
> > running the accessory motors.  Coming down this hill, my main motor is
> > now
> > running the accessory unit.  The main motor is now reading 0 motor amps
> > and
> > the main battery pack is reading 0 amps.
> >
> > My accessory inverter-alternator during the down hill run, is producing
> > up
> > to 50 amps of 14.5 vdc which is charging a EV deep cycle 12 volt
> > accessory
> > battery and about another 25 to 40  amps of 120 vac 60 hz which runs two
> > pumps, four fans, three heaters and a electric power steering pump.
> >
> > This type of REGEN holds the EV better than my ICE does with a 2.76:1
> > final
> > gear ratio.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Doug Weathers" <dougw@...>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 9:26 AM
> > Subject: [EVDL] Using regen energy for air conditioning (was: question
> > thati
> > wonder on)
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Jul 23, 2008, at 6:41 AM, jeff@... wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> As you didn't quote (or read?) the rest of my post where I talk about
> >>> replacing the air conditioning system with a compressed air system and
> >>> using it for that purpose and then go on to say even that is most
> >>> likely
> >>> to large and inefficient to work compared to the standard AC.
> >>>
> >> Hi Jeff,
> >>
> >> There's actually a much more direct (and efficient) way to use regen
> >> energy for air conditioning.
> >>
> >> Put an electric clutch on the tail shaft of your main motor.  Run a
> >> belt from the clutch to your AC compressor.  Hook up the electric
> >> clutch to engage when the brake lights come on.
> >>
> >> There's a beautiful VW bus on the EV Album that does this:
> >>
> >> <http://www.evalbum.com/384>
> >>
> >> Look at the last picture to see the arrangement.
> >>
> >> BTW, I'm not sure why this thread is being called OT.  I understood the
> >> question to be about adding an onboard power source to an EV.  This
> >> topic comes up all the time.  The diffference this time is the
> >> suggestion that the onboard power source be powered by compressed air.
> >>
> >> Bad idea, but not off topic, IMHO.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Doug Weathers
> >> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> >> http://www.gdunge.com/
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> >> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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[papertiger00]

OK to get away from the air car and my stupidity for the can of worms i think i found what i am looking for. it is www.aurasystems.com auragen. it is a continous generator of 8.5Kw and peak 10Kw runs 14 or 28v with a belt drive should be able to charge the batteries don't know how well. it also have a charging unit you can build into it that allows you to charge from the wall running through that. in either 120 or 240v. very interesting. it is 75-85% effievent for those that mentinoed that. but check it out would that be a better choice

[Peter_VanDerWal]

>
> OK to get away from the air car and my stupidity for the can of worms i
> think
> i found what i am looking for. it is www.aurasystems.com auragen. it is a
> continous generator of 8.5Kw and peak 10Kw runs 14 or 28v with a belt
> drive
> should be able to charge the batteries don't know how well. it also have a
> charging unit you can build into it that allows you to charge from the
> wall
> running through that. in either 120 or 240v. very interesting. it is
> 75-85%
> effievent for those that mentinoed that.

Ok this is JUST a generator.  You need something to provide motive power,
spin the input (I.e. an ICE, etc.).  All this does is convert mechanical
motion into electricity.
It's better than the typical automotive alternator, but not particularly
efficient.  You could use a Lynch motor as a generator and probably get
better efficiency.

You mentioned you wanted to get away from a gas powered generator, so I
don't see how this solves your problem.


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[Peter_VanDerWal]

>
> no why can you run it using gear proportioning to the electric engines. so
> running 25k rpm can be reduced down to the same as a gas engine turns and
> it
> will run accordingly

???  Come on, you can't be serious.

ALl this will do is run down your battery pack QUICKER.

You have to use electricity to run the electric motor.  Let's say you
start with 10kw going into the motor.
Let's say the motor is about 85% efficient, so you get 8.5 kw worth of
mechanical energy output from the motor.
The gears/belts used to change the RPM will also loose some energy.  Let's
say they are 95% efficient, now you have approx 8.1 kw worth of mechanical
power spinning the generator.
The generator is 75-85% efficient, let's give it the benefit of the doubt
and call it 85%.  So you get 6.9 kw electrical energy out of the
generator.

You take 10 kw out and put 6.9 kw back in leaving a net loss of of 3.1 kw
of power.  If you do this for an hour, your battery will loose 3.1kwh
worth of energy.

You can NOT use the batteries to charge themselves, no matter how many
steps you go through.  It violates the laws of physics.



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[Robin Lawrie]

Oh...erm... what would be..mmm.. powering the generator here?  Im
assuming you'd be running it from a small gas engine or suchlike?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of papertiger00
Sent: 24 July 2008 08:23
To: ev@...
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on AN UPDATE


OK to get away from the air car and my stupidity for the can of worms i
think
i found what i am looking for. it is www.aurasystems.com auragen. it is
a
continous generator of 8.5Kw and peak 10Kw runs 14 or 28v with a belt
drive
should be able to charge the batteries don't know how well. it also have
a
charging unit you can build into it that allows you to charge from the
wall
running through that. in either 120 or 240v. very interesting. it is
75-85%
effievent for those that mentinoed that. but check it out would that be
a
better choice
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/question-that-i-wonder-on-tp18583701p18626607.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.


_______________________________________________
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


a


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[papertiger00]

no why can you run it using gear proportioning to the electric engines. so running 25k rpm can be reduced down to the same as a gas engine turns and it will run accordingly. there is a design already to use a supercharger comeing from an ICE to run one so it can be run at fairly high rpms

Robin Lawrie wrote:

Oh...erm... what would be..mmm.. powering the generator here?  Im
assuming you'd be running it from a small gas engine or suchlike?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On
Behalf Of papertiger00
Sent: 24 July 2008 08:23
To: [e-mail]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on AN UPDATE


OK to get away from the air car and my stupidity for the can of worms i
think
i found what i am looking for. it is www.aurasystems.com auragen. it is
a
continous generator of 8.5Kw and peak 10Kw runs 14 or 28v with a belt
drive
should be able to charge the batteries don't know how well. it also have
a
charging unit you can build into it that allows you to charge from the
wall
running through that. in either 120 or 240v. very interesting. it is
75-85%
effievent for those that mentinoed that. but check it out would that be
a
better choice
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/question-that-i-wonder-on-tp18583701p18626607.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.


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For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


a


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[Doug Weathers]

On Jul 24, 2008, at 10:58 AM, papertiger00 wrote:

> no why can you run it using gear proportioning to the electric
> engines. so
> running 25k rpm can be reduced down to the same as a gas engine turns
> and it
> will run accordingly. there is a design already to use a supercharger
> comeing from an ICE to run one so it can be run at fairly high rpms

Yeah, you can do that - but it will slow down the car.  It would work
as a regen system.  The more power you generate with the Auragen, the
more drag you put on the electric motor.  More drag on the motor =
harder deceleration.  This is good if you want the car to slow down.

It would be worse than useless to run it when you don't want the car to
slow down.

This is a very common mistake that people make when they first start
thinking about EVs.  We call it the "generator on the wheel" question.  
As in, "Why don't you hook a generator up to the wheels and generate
electricity while the car is moving?  Then you can go further, since
you're charging the batteries while you're moving!"

I believe the reason for this mistake is our familiarity with
gasoline-powered vehicles.  There's the gas-powered engine, steadily
burning gas and moving the car.  And there's the alternator, whirring
away and charging the battery while the car is moving.  It's natural to
think of taking an alternator and hooking it up to the EV's electric
motor.

The way to see the mistake is to consider energy.  Where does it come
from, and where does it go?

In a regular car, the energy to move the car comes from the gas.  Some
of this is used by the alternator to charge the battery.  So the energy
in the car's battery originally came from the gas.

However, in an EV, the energy to move the car comes from the BATTERY
PACK.  If we add the alternator/generator/Auragen, we're taking energy
from the BATTERY PACK and putting it back in the BATTERY PACK!  All the
energy put back into the battery pack originally came from the battery
pack to begin with.  You should just leave it there, instead of taking
it out and putting it back!

Why is that?  Since this process can't be 100% efficient (nothing is),
some energy will always be wasted.  It's IMPOSSIBLE to take out some of
the energy, and put all of it (or MORE than all of it, which is what
you'd have to do if you hope to extend the range of your EV) back in.  
You can only put back part of it.  This means you just wasted some of
your battery pack's energy.

Give this some thought and see if you can get it clear in your head why
putting a generator on an EV that's powered by the car's motion is not
going to extend the range of the EV.

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/


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