question that i wonder on

[tigerbody]

I want to put a windmill on my EV so I will never have to chargethe
batteries. The windmill can charge the batteries while I drive
on the highway. Since it is so efficient, I dont have to have
the windmill up while I am parked.

;o)

--
Patrick Ira Donegan
TigerBody Electric Vehicles

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[Haudy Kazemi]

Peter VanDerWal wrote:

>> I must admit at one point I considered using some form of compressed air
>> or
>> hydraulic system as a braking system on the front wheels to recover a
>> higher
>> percentage of the energy of braking.  Compressed air was also interesting
>> because, as previously noted, you can pick up a little at a gas station if
>> it happens to be a hot day.
>>    
>
> Sheesh, I guess I should have responded on list.  The 2-3 SCM @ 90-100 PSI
> you find at gas stations is a far cry from the THOUSANDS of PSI these air
> cars run on.
>
> The compressed air at gas stations is practically useless as an energy
> source for EVs.
>
> Assuming you could build an incredibly efficient Air motor and couple it
> to an incredibly efficient generator it would probably take 2-3 hours to
> recharge you EV enough to go 1 mile.  It would only take 30-40 minutes to
> push it that far.
> If you are in moderately good shape, you could recharge faster with a
> pedal powered generator.
>
>  

Thanks Peter...I was about to type up the very same note on the air
supplies.  At best, gas station compressors are going to give you
120-150 psi, with 300 psi being an extreme stretch.  Most tires and air
tools need quite a bit under a 100 psi, and that's what these
compressors are intended for.

It is basically the same problem as the compressors needed for filling
the hydrogen tanks needed for fuel cell vehicles.  Air, CNG, and H2
tanks are all run at 3,000-10,000 psi in order to get enough in there to
have a measurable range.  Trying to use a standard automotive compressor
to recharge these tanks (assuming you have an onboard air-driven
pressure booster) is probably going to be like charging an EV using
solar panels mounted on its roof...i.e. ineffective.  I have not run the
energy calculations for running these compressors, but I don't think it
would take much in losses to do worse than the losses seen in batteries
and chargers.  The specialized compressors required means that for any
home refilling tasks, strong electrical service is going to be necessary
to keep the refueling time down to a few hours, and the compressor
energy cost is going to be significant.  These combined mean that
overall an EV is about at parity in terms of home refilling time, and at
an advantage in terms of overall energy consumption.  (BTW, I have put
together a fairly thorough side by side comparison of EV and CNG
infrastructure and costs that David plans to include in the FAQ.)

Someone also provided a link about rotary air engines.  That's similar
to piston rotary engines, which have been around for a while:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistonless_rotary_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine


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[Peter_VanDerWal]

> As you didn't quote (or read?) the rest of my post where I talk about
> replacing the air conditioning system with a compressed air system and
> using it for that purpose and then go on to say even that is most likely
> to large and inefficient to work compared to the standard AC.  It is one
> of those many ideas I considered early on but had to dismiss due to weight
> and size issues.

The reason I didn't comment on the rest is you appeared to have figured
out already that it wasn't practical.  Forgive me if I misread you.

Compressed air cooling isn't practical for EVs.  Try building a system on
the bench and seeing how effective it is.
Using a compressor might give you some breaking (how would you control
it?) but not much compressed air.

If you don't have a compressor, go to a hardware store and look at them.
The 110V ones take  several minutes to fill a small tank to 100psi.  This
is using approx 1 kw energy input.  think about how long that would take
to fill the same tank if you used it for a few seconds worth of regen at a
time.

Do the bench test above and see how quickly the tank empties if you try to
use it for cooling.
A better cooling idea than your turbo is a Vortex tube, but even it
requires way to much air to be useful.

Yeah you might get a tiny bit of cooling (basically useless) for a large
amount of extra weight and complexity.  You'd be better off carrying an
extra battery and using a peltier cooler (and peltiers are a poor solution
for cooling an EV)


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[Peter_VanDerWal]

> You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
> this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell
> bent
> on replacing all the cars in the world with electric. What if something
> better comes along. Too bad! It sounds just like where we are stuck today
> by
> the petrol and car companies.

I agree that some folks on the list go overboard on EVs being a solution
to ALL problems, witness discussions in the past on how to convert a
Peterbilt to electric for long haul trucking (rolls eyes)

> Mind you I'm still neutral and actually still on the EV side of the fence
> but here's what really bugs me. You are bantering at this air car idea
> with
> no basis in fact. I have seen no hard data from you on how it is a
> failure.
> Even a simple comparison of costs would be acceptable. List it like this.

However, the air car thing has been beat to death on this list in the
past.  Even using the data provided by the makers, it is at best equal to
and in most respects worse than an EV.  It doesn't have any better range.
It can't be recharged much if any faster (there are heat issues even when
filling one tank from another), and all of the proposed "filling" stations
use electricity to run the compressors.  When you look at the real data
for miles per kwh from the outlet, EVs win hands down.

If you don't believe me check the archives or do the research yourself.
This is not the place for it and I'm not going to waste any more time, or
bandwidth, on it.


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[Neon John]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:51:57 -0700, "Marty Mercer" <m2megagroup@...>
wrote:

>For the rocket scientist who are hell bent in their ignorance....
>
>http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm
>
>David, I'm done... So no need to comment.

Threads like this make Baby Jesus cry!

I don't think that I could conceive of a more INefficient method of storing
energy than compressed air. Industrial compressed air system efficiency runs
in the single digit range. It's that physics thang again.

Why don't you google something like "compressed air systems efficiency" and
similar terms.  Add a "-car -automobile -transportation" if you'd like to
filter out all the crap.  The physics don't change when you wrap a car body
around something.  

Industrial compressed air systems have been around forever, represent a huge
operating cost for facility that use a lot of compressed air and therefore
have been optimized to the extent possible.  The "wall to tool" efficiency is
STILL in the single to low double digit range.

Or consider common sense.  When your shop air compressor runs, where does most
of the energy end up?  That's right, heat.  That's why air compressors have
finned heads, intercoolers between stages and for large compressors,
post-coolers.  All that heat is wasted, dissipated to air or water in the case
of water cooled compressors.

Or more common sense.  Consider that air powered die grinder that generates
perhaps 1 HP but can suck the guts out of a 5 HP air compressor.  Where did
the difference in energy go?  Yep, to the atmosphere as heat.

The calculations aren't complicated.  Simple gas law stuff.  There are gas law
calculators on the web so that you don't have to do any manual calculations. I
strongly suggest that you avail yourself of these resources.

Very large scale (utility scale) energy storage using compressed air has been
considered for a couple of reasons, despite the inefficiencies.

1) Other than pumped storage, it is the only technology that would scale to
utility sizes. (sodium sulfur battery banks are a new alternative)

2) the huge volume to surface ratio of the expended salt mines and gas wells
considered for the project mean that most of the heat of compression is
available for the expansion cycle.  That is, the air remains hot, retaining
much of the input energy.  This is simply not practical (if theoretically
possible, I suppose) on a small scale.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save a tree, kill a beaver


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[Roger Heuckeroth]

I have been trying to stay out of this thread since it is a bit OT,  
but I feel compelled to say something in this regard.  John, your  
correct that most of the energy goes into heat, but does it need to be  
wasted?  That heat can be recovered and used to heat a hot water  
storage tank, or provide space heating, etc.  I thought about and  
dismissed the air powered car idea quite a while ago, but in a niche  
application where you can recover and use the heat of compression and  
frictional heat, it could work.  Also, it is possible to compress air  
without oil, so those who suggest that there is oil pollution  
inherently involved are not correct.  All electric is just such better  
way to go.

On Jul 23, 2008, at 7:30 AM, Neon John wrote:

> When your shop air compressor runs, where does most
> of the energy end up?  That's right, heat.  That's why air  
> compressors have
> finned heads, intercoolers between stages and for large compressors,
> post-coolers.  All that heat is wasted, dissipated to air or water  
> in the case
> of water cooled compressors.


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[Jeff Miller-12]

As you didn't quote (or read?) the rest of my post where I talk about
replacing the air conditioning system with a compressed air system and
using it for that purpose and then go on to say even that is most likely
to large and inefficient to work compared to the standard AC.  It is one
of those many ideas I considered early on but had to dismiss due to weight
and size issues.

My only point is before you try to question my line of thought please at
least read the conclusion.

> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>> I must admit at one point I considered using some form of compressed
>>> air
>>> or
>>> hydraulic system as a braking system on the front wheels to recover a
>>> higher
>>> percentage of the energy of braking.  Compressed air was also
>>> interesting
>>> because, as previously noted, you can pick up a little at a gas station
>>> if
>>> it happens to be a hot day.
>>>
>>
>> Sheesh, I guess I should have responded on list.  The 2-3 SCM @ 90-100
>> PSI
>> you find at gas stations is a far cry from the THOUSANDS of PSI these
>> air
>> cars run on.
>>
>> The compressed air at gas stations is practically useless as an energy
>> source for EVs.
>>
>> Assuming you could build an incredibly efficient Air motor and couple it
>> to an incredibly efficient generator it would probably take 2-3 hours to
>> recharge you EV enough to go 1 mile.  It would only take 30-40 minutes
>> to
>> push it that far.
>> If you are in moderately good shape, you could recharge faster with a
>> pedal powered generator.
>>
>>
> Thanks Peter...I was about to type up the very same note on the air
> supplies.  At best, gas station compressors are going to give you
> 120-150 psi, with 300 psi being an extreme stretch.  Most tires and air
> tools need quite a bit under a 100 psi, and that's what these
> compressors are intended for.
>
> It is basically the same problem as the compressors needed for filling
> the hydrogen tanks needed for fuel cell vehicles.  Air, CNG, and H2
> tanks are all run at 3,000-10,000 psi in order to get enough in there to
> have a measurable range.  Trying to use a standard automotive compressor
> to recharge these tanks (assuming you have an onboard air-driven
> pressure booster) is probably going to be like charging an EV using
> solar panels mounted on its roof...i.e. ineffective.  I have not run the
> energy calculations for running these compressors, but I don't think it
> would take much in losses to do worse than the losses seen in batteries
> and chargers.  The specialized compressors required means that for any
> home refilling tasks, strong electrical service is going to be necessary
> to keep the refueling time down to a few hours, and the compressor
> energy cost is going to be significant.  These combined mean that
> overall an EV is about at parity in terms of home refilling time, and at
> an advantage in terms of overall energy consumption.  (BTW, I have put
> together a fairly thorough side by side comparison of EV and CNG
> infrastructure and costs that David plans to include in the FAQ.)
>
> Someone also provided a link about rotary air engines.  That's similar
> to piston rotary engines, which have been around for a while:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistonless_rotary_engine
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_engine
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

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[markgrasser]

You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell bent
on replacing all the cars in the world with electric. What if something
better comes along. Too bad! It sounds just like where we are stuck today by
the petrol and car companies.

Mind you I'm still neutral and actually still on the EV side of the fence
but here's what really bugs me. You are bantering at this air car idea with
no basis in fact. I have seen no hard data from you on how it is a failure.
Even a simple comparison of costs would be acceptable. List it like this.

                    Air car cost Electric car
cost
Recurring expenses compress air 3.00/day
recharge battery 2.00/day
Maintenance none 0.00
new batteries every 5 years 30,000.00

Maybe we would find it different then you say, maybe not but without basis
in fact all you are doing is wasting my bandwidth.


Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 7:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:51:57 -0700, "Marty Mercer" <m2megagroup@...>
wrote:

>For the rocket scientist who are hell bent in their ignorance....
>
>http://www.engineair.com.au/index.htm
>
>David, I'm done... So no need to comment.

Threads like this make Baby Jesus cry!

I don't think that I could conceive of a more INefficient method of storing
energy than compressed air. Industrial compressed air system efficiency runs
in the single digit range. It's that physics thang again.

Why don't you google something like "compressed air systems efficiency" and
similar terms.  Add a "-car -automobile -transportation" if you'd like to
filter out all the crap.  The physics don't change when you wrap a car body
around something.  

Industrial compressed air systems have been around forever, represent a huge
operating cost for facility that use a lot of compressed air and therefore
have been optimized to the extent possible.  The "wall to tool" efficiency
is
STILL in the single to low double digit range.

Or consider common sense.  When your shop air compressor runs, where does
most
of the energy end up?  That's right, heat.  That's why air compressors have
finned heads, intercoolers between stages and for large compressors,
post-coolers.  All that heat is wasted, dissipated to air or water in the
case
of water cooled compressors.

Or more common sense.  Consider that air powered die grinder that generates
perhaps 1 HP but can suck the guts out of a 5 HP air compressor.  Where did
the difference in energy go?  Yep, to the atmosphere as heat.

The calculations aren't complicated.  Simple gas law stuff.  There are gas
law
calculators on the web so that you don't have to do any manual calculations.
I
strongly suggest that you avail yourself of these resources.

Very large scale (utility scale) energy storage using compressed air has
been
considered for a couple of reasons, despite the inefficiencies.

1) Other than pumped storage, it is the only technology that would scale to
utility sizes. (sodium sulfur battery banks are a new alternative)

2) the huge volume to surface ratio of the expended salt mines and gas wells
considered for the project mean that most of the heat of compression is
available for the expansion cycle.  That is, the air remains hot, retaining
much of the input energy.  This is simply not practical (if theoretically
possible, I suppose) on a small scale.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save a tree, kill a beaver


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[EVDL Administrator]

Come on, guys.  This thread is off topic and is generating some glowing
embers (not flames yet).  Please end it voluntarily now, so I don't have to
get down the moderation club.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[Neon John]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:47:32 -0400, "Mark Grasser" <markgrasser@...>
wrote:

>You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
>this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell bent
>on replacing all the cars in the world with electric. What if something
>better comes along. Too bad! It sounds just like where we are stuck today by
>the petrol and car companies.
>
>Mind you I'm still neutral and actually still on the EV side of the fence
>but here's what really bugs me. You are bantering at this air car idea with
>no basis in fact. I have seen no hard data from you on how it is a failure.
>Even a simple comparison of costs would be acceptable. List it like this.

I'm almost at a loss for words.  Such pervasive ignorance of basic physics.
This isn't even high school physics.  I studied Charles' and Boyle's in the
8th grade.  I feel like I've drifted into some kooky over-unity free energy
discussion.

In the time you spent to compose the above message, you COULD have educated
yourself on the subject.

I'm not going to do the calculations to "prove" the inefficiency of
compressing air because I've done that many times since the 8th grade.  This
is at about the same level as being asked to mathematically prove that the
earth isn't flat.  Educate yourself!

Did you REALLY graduate from high school not knowing the gas laws?  Is
government education really that bad?

OK, I'm outta this thread.  I feel soiled even participating.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
What do you call a blonde's dildo?  Pneumatic tool.


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[markgrasser]

John, David, all.
Sorry I needed to defend my purported inability to read.

This below is the conclusion from a study done on the viability of the air
car. It has nothing to do with the losses of compressing air, same as Lee
explaining that it has nothing to do with the cost of pumping the crude out
of the ground and turning it into gasoline. It has EVERYTHING to do with the
cost to the consumer and the cost to the environment.

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME

OK, I think I'm done.



Thermodynamic Analysis of
Compressed Air Vehicle Propulsion
Ulf Bossel
European Fuel Cell Forum
Morgenacherstrasse 2F
CH-5452 Oberrohrdorf / Switzerland

For the operation of a compressed air car the overall "plug-to-road"
efficiency is
one of the key criteria. The optimum is obtained when maximum technical work
Wt34 becomes available at a minimum of technical work Wt12 input for air
compression. From the foregoing analysis it becomes clear that both
compression and expansion must proceed close to the isothermal limit. This
can only be accomplished with multi-stage compression and expansion
processes with heat exchangers for removal or addition of heat to the medium
to establish close to ambient conditions.
The foregoing analysis may not be the first of its kind and certainly needs
refinements. In particular, the thermodynamics of heat exchange, mechanical
and aerodynamic losses, electrical efficiencies etc. need to be considered.
All
these effects may reduce the overall efficiency to 40% or less. The total
process
efficiency may be improved by increasing the number of compression and
expansion stages. However, such efficiencies may still be attractive in a
sustainable energy future when renewable energy is harvested as electricity
and transportation needs must be satisfied from available energy sources.
With
respect to overall efficiency, battery-electric vehicles may be better than
air
cars, but hydrogen fuel cell systems may be worse. However, with respect to
system and operating costs, air cars may offer many advantages such as
simplicity, cost, independence, zero pollution and environmental
friendliness of
all system components.
All in all, the compressed air car seems to be a viable option for clean and
efficient short range transportation. Further analyses, additional research
and
development are most welcome to fully identify the potentials of this
unconventional source of transportation energy.

Mark Grasser
Balyntec
Marine Products, LLC
828-581-4601
mark.grasser@...


-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces@... [mailto:ev-bounces@...] On Behalf
Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 10:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:47:32 -0400, "Mark Grasser" <markgrasser@...>
wrote:

>You know John, I was going to stay quiet on this after my last comment but
>this thread won't die so here I am again. People on this list are hell bent
>on replacing all the cars in the world with electric. What if something
>better comes along. Too bad! It sounds just like where we are stuck today
by
>the petrol and car companies.
>
>Mind you I'm still neutral and actually still on the EV side of the fence
>but here's what really bugs me. You are bantering at this air car idea with
>no basis in fact. I have seen no hard data from you on how it is a failure.
>Even a simple comparison of costs would be acceptable. List it like this.

I'm almost at a loss for words.  Such pervasive ignorance of basic physics.
This isn't even high school physics.  I studied Charles' and Boyle's in the
8th grade.  I feel like I've drifted into some kooky over-unity free energy
discussion.

In the time you spent to compose the above message, you COULD have educated
yourself on the subject.

I'm not going to do the calculations to "prove" the inefficiency of
compressing air because I've done that many times since the 8th grade.  This
is at about the same level as being asked to mathematically prove that the
earth isn't flat.  Educate yourself!

Did you REALLY graduate from high school not knowing the gas laws?  Is
government education really that bad?

OK, I'm outta this thread.  I feel soiled even participating.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
What do you call a blonde's dildo?  Pneumatic tool.


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[papertiger00]

I am sorry that this went the way it did it was never meant to start this whole mess. as i said i know it is ineffcient but a gas car is only 20% effcient. you can run thermoelectric conductors in oder to make more energy so the loss can be recovered. i was just looking for something besides running a gas generator making a hybrid and the ev concept useless.

but as the mods have said this needs to end so i apologize for starting a war in small numbers

[lyn williams]

wow...what a neat idea!  bet that one takes solar panels on the roof AND a windmill!

> I agree that some folks on the list go overboard on EVs being a solution
> to ALL problems, witness discussions in the past on how to convert a
> Peterbilt to electric for long haul trucking (rolls eyes)

--
lyn williams <lyn@...>


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[Doug Weathers]

On Jul 23, 2008, at 6:41 AM, jeff@... wrote:

> As you didn't quote (or read?) the rest of my post where I talk about
> replacing the air conditioning system with a compressed air system and
> using it for that purpose and then go on to say even that is most
> likely
> to large and inefficient to work compared to the standard AC.

Hi Jeff,

There's actually a much more direct (and efficient) way to use regen
energy for air conditioning.

Put an electric clutch on the tail shaft of your main motor.  Run a
belt from the clutch to your AC compressor.  Hook up the electric
clutch to engage when the brake lights come on.

There's a beautiful VW bus on the EV Album that does this:

<http://www.evalbum.com/384>

Look at the last picture to see the arrangement.

BTW, I'm not sure why this thread is being called OT.  I understood the
question to be about adding an onboard power source to an EV.  This
topic comes up all the time.  The diffference this time is the
suggestion that the onboard power source be powered by compressed air.

Bad idea, but not off topic, IMHO.

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/


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[Bob Rice-2]

----- Original Message -----
From: "lyn williams" <lyn@...>
To: <evdl@...>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@...>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] question that I wonder on


> wow...what a neat idea!  bet that one takes solar panels on the roof AND a
> windmill!
>

    Nah! All it takes is two skinny little wires hung up over the road<g>
That they could neither push nor shove, It's witchcraft? Nah? simple
electricity, been arounfd for hundreds of years. Or hang ONE up over a RR
trak?Put that 'ol truk on the TRAIN! It and 300 others wafted along with the
"breath of Lightning"

   No EV's aren't the answer to the World's Problems, but show me anything
that works better for getting about locally?Simply, easy to make and own,
etc. Well I'm preaching to the Choir here, but still?

    Seeya

    Bob

>> I agree that some folks on the list go overboard on EVs being a solution
>> to ALL problems, witness discussions in the past on how to convert a
>> Peterbilt to electric for long haul trucking (rolls eyes)
>
> --
> lyn williams <lyn@...>
>
>
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[Sarah & Erik]

From: "Mark Grasser" <markgrasser@...>

<snip> People on this list are hell bent on replacing all the cars in the
world with electric. <snip>

In other news the Pope is reportedly Catholic.

This is an EV list. Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

Erik

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