joining debian-science and pkg-scicomp

[Ondrej Certik]

Hi,

I joined the Debian Scientific Computation Team

http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam

about half a year ago, because I thought that is the scientific team in Debian.
Now I noticed there is also a Debian Science team:

http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScience

What is the purpose of Debian Science -- isn't it better to join the two teams?

Here is a list of packages that we maintain in the Debian Scientific
Computation Team:

http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-scicomp-devel@...

Some notable ones are: paraview, abinit, gmsh, suitesparse (e.g.
umfpack), superlu, netgen, libmesh, slepc, tetgen

Here is a list of packages maintained by the Debian Science:

http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-science-maintainers@...

is that it, or are there some more packages?

I am asking to find out where is the best place to maintain the
atlas3.8 packages. It seems to me the Debian Scientific Computation
Team is more suited for that, given
that it already maintains many similar packages.

Let me know what you think.

Ondrej


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[Sylvestre Ledru-3]

Hello,

> Hi,
>
> I joined the Debian Scientific Computation Team
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam
>
> about half a year ago, because I thought that is the scientific team in Debian.
Scientific computing software != Scientific software
Debian Science is much more general.

We exchanged a few emails with Christophe Prud'homme about that before
starting the Debian-Science team and we arrived to the conclusion that
both teams are important and when overlaps happen (like the one on
Atlas), we should keep an open mind where a package should go.

[...]
>
> Here is a list of packages maintained by the Debian Science:
>
> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-science-maintainers@...

> is that it, or are there some more packages?
>
More package are coming like Worldwind, Scilab, libmatio (for me) and other are managed under the git and svn vcs...

> I am asking to find out where is the best place to maintain the
> atlas3.8 packages. It seems to me the Debian Scientific Computation
> Team is more suited for that, given
> that it already maintains many similar packages.
I agree with you. Blas/Lapack & Atlas are core packages of numerical
computing software and should be maintained actively by people coming
from this "world".

Sylvestre



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[Manuel Prinz-2]

Am Dienstag, den 08.07.2008, 16:29 +0200 schrieb Sylvestre Ledru:
> Ondrej Certikwrote:
> > is that it, or are there some more packages?
> >
> More package are coming like Worldwind, Scilab, libmatio (for me) and
> other are managed under the git and svn vcs...

Also, some are under the Debian Science hood but not uploaded for just a
maintainer change. So the list will grow once these are uploaded.

> > I am asking to find out where is the best place to maintain the
> > atlas3.8 packages. It seems to me the Debian Scientific Computation
> > Team is more suited for that, given
> > that it already maintains many similar packages.
> I agree with you. Blas/Lapack & Atlas are core packages of numerical
> computing software and should be maintained actively by people coming
> from this "world".

Yes, I think maintaining them in Sci-Comp is appropriate.

In the long run I'd really love to see the clans unite and grew into one
Debian Science team with specialized "subgroups". But there is much more
to do first and I doubt that everyone is with me in this respect. So
we'll see where all this goes.

Best regards
Manuel

[Chris Walker-2]

Manuel Prinz <debian@...> writes:

> Am Dienstag, den 08.07.2008, 16:29 +0200 schrieb Sylvestre Ledru:
> > Ondrej Certikwrote:
> > > is that it, or are there some more packages?
> > >
> > More package are coming like Worldwind, Scilab, libmatio (for me) and
> > other are managed under the git and svn vcs...
>
> Also, some are under the Debian Science hood but not uploaded for just a
> maintainer change. So the list will grow once these are uploaded.
>
> > > I am asking to find out where is the best place to maintain the
> > > atlas3.8 packages. It seems to me the Debian Scientific Computation
> > > Team is more suited for that, given
> > > that it already maintains many similar packages.
> > I agree with you. Blas/Lapack & Atlas are core packages of numerical
> > computing software and should be maintained actively by people coming
> > from this "world".
>
> Yes, I think maintaining them in Sci-Comp is appropriate.

Inded.

>
> In the long run I'd really love to see the clans unite and grew into one
> Debian Science team with specialized "subgroups". But there is much more
> to do first and I doubt that everyone is with me in this respect. So
> we'll see where all this goes.


http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam says "The
aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
scientific packages in Debian. " and doesn't mention
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience (and vice versa).

Perhaps the two could link to each other. If suitable text can be
agreed, I'll volunteer to commit it to the wiki if I'm not beaten to it.

Chris


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[Sylvestre Ledru-5]

> > In the long run I'd really love to see the clans unite and grew into one
> > Debian Science team with specialized "subgroups". But there is much more
> > to do first and I doubt that everyone is with me in this respect. So
> > we'll see where all this goes.
>
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam says "The
> aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
> scientific packages in Debian. " and doesn't mention
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience (and vice versa).
>
> Perhaps the two could link to each other. If suitable text can be
> agreed, I'll volunteer to commit it to the wiki if I'm not beaten to it.

Please go for it. Neither of Manuel or I are native english speakers. I
am sure you will find a better phrasing than us.

Btw, this point concerns also debian-med and debichem.

Sylvestre



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[Ondrej Certik]

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Sylvestre Ledru
<sylvestre.ledru@...> wrote:

>
>> > In the long run I'd really love to see the clans unite and grew into one
>> > Debian Science team with specialized "subgroups". But there is much more
>> > to do first and I doubt that everyone is with me in this respect. So
>> > we'll see where all this goes.
>>
>>
>> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam says "The
>> aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
>> scientific packages in Debian. " and doesn't mention
>> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience (and vice versa).
>>
>> Perhaps the two could link to each other. If suitable text can be
>> agreed, I'll volunteer to commit it to the wiki if I'm not beaten to it.
> Please go for it. Neither of Manuel or I are native english speakers. I
> am sure you will find a better phrasing than us.
>
> Btw, this point concerns also debian-med and debichem.

Does it look better now:

http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam

?

Feel free to edit the wiki.

Ondrej


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[Chris Walker-2]

On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 07:00:34PM +0200, Ondrej Certik wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Sylvestre Ledru
> <sylvestre.ledru@...> wrote:
> >
> >> > In the long run I'd really love to see the clans unite and grew into one
> >> > Debian Science team with specialized "subgroups". But there is much more
> >> > to do first and I doubt that everyone is with me in this respect. So
> >> > we'll see where all this goes.
> >>
> >>
> >> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam says "The
> >> aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
> >> scientific packages in Debian. " and doesn't mention
> >> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience (and vice versa).
> >>

And I was being slighlty unfair here - there is a link to
http://pkg-scicomp.alioth.debian.org/ under

http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience/ContributingToDebianScience.

> >> Perhaps the two could link to each other. If suitable text can be
> >> agreed, I'll volunteer to commit it to the wiki if I'm not beaten to it.
> > Please go for it. Neither of Manuel or I are native english speakers. I
> > am sure you will find a better phrasing than us.
> >
> > Btw, this point concerns also debian-med and debichem.
>
> Does it look better now:
>


> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam

Yes, but it still doesn't make the distinction Scientific computing
software != Scientific software.

AIUI, scientific computing is a subset of science - specifically it is
the hard core numerically intensive/modelling stuff - used by people who do
experiments on computers, rather than experimentalists who use
computers to collect and analyse data.

Shouldn't there be a link to http://pkg-scicomp.alioth.debian.org/ on
there too?


>
> ?
>
> Feel free to edit the wiki.


I'll try to think of something suitable.

Chris








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[Ondrej Certik]

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 9:27 PM, Chris Walker
<chrisw@...> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 08, 2008 at 07:00:34PM +0200, Ondrej Certik wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:21 PM, Sylvestre Ledru
>> <sylvestre.ledru@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> > In the long run I'd really love to see the clans unite and grew into one
>> >> > Debian Science team with specialized "subgroups". But there is much more
>> >> > to do first and I doubt that everyone is with me in this respect. So
>> >> > we'll see where all this goes.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam says "The
>> >> aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
>> >> scientific packages in Debian. " and doesn't mention
>> >> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience (and vice versa).
>> >>
>
> And I was being slighlty unfair here - there is a link to
> http://pkg-scicomp.alioth.debian.org/ under
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience/ContributingToDebianScience.
>
>> >> Perhaps the two could link to each other. If suitable text can be
>> >> agreed, I'll volunteer to commit it to the wiki if I'm not beaten to it.
>> > Please go for it. Neither of Manuel or I are native english speakers. I
>> > am sure you will find a better phrasing than us.
>> >
>> > Btw, this point concerns also debian-med and debichem.
>>
>> Does it look better now:
>>
>
>
>> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam
>
> Yes, but it still doesn't make the distinction Scientific computing
> software != Scientific software.

Yes, feel free to fix it.

>
> AIUI, scientific computing is a subset of science - specifically it is
> the hard core numerically intensive/modelling stuff - used by people who do
> experiments on computers, rather than experimentalists who use
> computers to collect and analyse data.
>
> Shouldn't there be a link to http://pkg-scicomp.alioth.debian.org/ on
> there too?

I didn't know about this page... I thought our webpage is the wiki.
That's a problem of bad organization. :)

Ondrej


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[Andreas Tille]

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:

> What is the purpose of Debian Science -- isn't it better to join the two teams?

Well, Debian Science is a little bit more than just packaging and the
scope is wider than just "computing".  If you look at the tasks page

    http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/science/tasks/

you get a good overview what we are doing.

> Here is a list of packages that we maintain in the Debian Scientific
> Computation Team:
>
> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-scicomp-devel@...
>
> Some notable ones are: paraview, abinit, gmsh, suitesparse (e.g.
> umfpack), superlu, netgen, libmesh, slepc, tetgen

It is great that there is a team that maintains these computing packages
and I would be really happy if anybody could work down this list of packages
and either add packages to existing tasks of Debian Science or perhaps
it turns out that it is reasonable to add another task with all these
packages.  Because it seems that it can not be mentioned often enough:

     svn://svn.debian.org/cdd/projects/science/trunk/debian-science/tasks

is the place where you can influenze the tasks pages mentioned above (as well
as the metapackages).  Just go on adding information to the tasks files.

> Here is a list of packages maintained by the Debian Science:
>
> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=debian-science-maintainers@...
>
> is that it, or are there some more packages?

No, not yet.  But the intention is different.  We just try to take over
any scientific software that is *not* *yet* group maintained.  So if the
maintenance of a pckage is fine there is no need to take it over.  Do you
think that the list above fits in the scope of "Scientific Computing?"
I do not think so.

BTW, the Debian Science effort is much older than pkg-scicomp-devel - so
whoever this effort started pkg-scicomp-devel outside of Debian Science
seemed to have had his reasons.  I do not want to question these reasons
and if it is a pure packaging effort I see no problem in a small team
that consist of computing experts caring for a more narrowed topic.

> I am asking to find out where is the best place to maintain the
> atlas3.8 packages. It seems to me the Debian Scientific Computation
> Team is more suited for that, given
> that it already maintains many similar packages.

I'd suggest to ask there and if you might find coworkers there who
are volunteering to help you in packaging you should probably accept
this help.

Kind regards

          Andreas.
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[Andreas Tille]

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:

>>> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam says "The
>>> aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
>>> scientific packages in Debian. " and doesn't mention
>>> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience (and vice versa).
>>>
>> Btw, this point concerns also debian-med and debichem.
>
> Does it look better now:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam

Well, as long as

    The aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
    scientific packages in Debian.

it either has to be corrected or specified what exactly this might mean.
Before we started the Debian Science repository there was a quite longish
discussion on the debian-science mailing list - feel free to search the
archive.  If I remember right there was not that much effort to make
clear that DebianScientificComputingTeam is really keen on fullfilling this
task.

Kind regards

          Andreas.

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[Ondrej Certik]

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:
>
>>>> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam says "The
>>>> aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
>>>> scientific packages in Debian. " and doesn't mention
>>>> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience (and vice versa).
>>>>
>>> Btw, this point concerns also debian-med and debichem.
>>
>> Does it look better now:
>>
>> http://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebianScientificComputingTeam
>
> Well, as long as
>
>   The aim of Debian Scientific Computing Team is to provide home for all
>   scientific packages in Debian.
>
> it either has to be corrected or specified what exactly this might mean.
> Before we started the Debian Science repository there was a quite longish
> discussion on the debian-science mailing list - feel free to search the
> archive.  If I remember right there was not that much effort to make
> clear that DebianScientificComputingTeam is really keen on fullfilling this
> task.

It was me who wrote this wiki, as I thought that the
DebianScientificComputingTeam was the only scientific team in Debian.

Now that I learned that there are two, I think the purpose of Debian
Science team could be to cover sort of everything, as you have said,
while
DebianScientificComputingTeam could cover high performance computing +
visualization?

Ondrej


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[Andreas Tille]

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:

> It was me who wrote this wiki, as I thought that the
> DebianScientificComputingTeam was the only scientific team in Debian.
>
> Now that I learned that there are two, I think the purpose of Debian
> Science team could be to cover sort of everything, as you have said,
> while
> DebianScientificComputingTeam could cover high performance computing +
> visualization?

Kind of that.  As I said I see more than an exclusive packaging team
in Debian Science: It is about contacting users and developers providing
a technical basis for not only packages but _a_ _set_ _of_ _packages_,
just working as a Custom Debian Distribution (and no, before this stupid
name couses another misunderstanding: a Custom Debian Distribution is
_defined_ as beeing completely internal in Debian - it's just the name
that sounds confusing ...) [1]

Thanks for your work on the Wiki anyway

          Andreas.

[1] http://people.debian.org/~tille/cdd/

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[Ondrej Certik]

On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 11:42 PM, Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:
>
>> It was me who wrote this wiki, as I thought that the
>> DebianScientificComputingTeam was the only scientific team in Debian.
>>
>> Now that I learned that there are two, I think the purpose of Debian
>> Science team could be to cover sort of everything, as you have said,
>> while
>> DebianScientificComputingTeam could cover high performance computing +
>> visualization?
>
> Kind of that.  As I said I see more than an exclusive packaging team
> in Debian Science: It is about contacting users and developers providing
> a technical basis for not only packages but _a_ _set_ _of_ _packages_,
> just working as a Custom Debian Distribution (and no, before this stupid
> name couses another misunderstanding: a Custom Debian Distribution is
> _defined_ as beeing completely internal in Debian - it's just the name
> that sounds confusing ...) [1]

Great -- if it's internal to Debian, then all is fine. When I read
that, I said -- hell no, I don't want another derivative. :)
But you clarified that immediatelly.

>
> Thanks for your work on the Wiki anyway

Chris Walker has fixed our wiki in the meantime -- thanks a lot!
Now it looks much better.

> [1] http://people.debian.org/~tille/cdd/

On the page:

http://people.debian.org/~tille/cdd/ch-existing.en.html#s-debian-edu

change the link:

http://wiki.debian.net/?DebianEdu

to:

http://wiki.debian.org/?DebianEdu

Andreas --- so the Debian Science CCD just provides the metapackages?
I mean -- all you have to do is to make sure that the user just
installs one metapackage and he gets a fully working system ready to
do whatever he needs in his field? And then you also make sure that
all the packages work nicely together?
Or is there something more that I don't see. :)

Ondrej


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[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:

> Great -- if it's internal to Debian, then all is fine. When I read
> that, I said -- hell no, I don't want another derivative. :)

I really love people who think "hell no" if they hear about just another
derivative from Debian. ;-))
Welcome in the boat of people who try to make Debian good enough to make
any reason to derive void.  BTW, I'm constantly thinking about a better
name for the beast than Custom Debian Distributions. [1]

> change the link:
>
> http://wiki.debian.net/?DebianEdu
>
> to:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/?DebianEdu

Thanks for any hints.  If anybody wants to fix this kind of problems
directly - the text is inside the cdd source package and can be accessed
in SVN [2].

> Andreas --- so the Debian Science CCD just provides the metapackages?
> I mean -- all you have to do is to make sure that the user just
> installs one metapackage and he gets a fully working system ready to
> do whatever he needs in his field? And then you also make sure that
> all the packages work nicely together?

Well, this is one major point.

> Or is there something more that I don't see. :)

I try to propagate more things around it but things are developing slowly.
If you consider that the tasks pages in the web [3] I frequently advertised
here on this list took at least three years from the idea to the implementation
you might imagine that there are more ideas hanging around how we could
provide other clever tools if spare time would permit.  David Paleino had
done a really good job with the Debian Med alioth pages [4] - the tasks pages
are only one part of it.  My goal is to be the missing link between upstream
developers and users of field specific software.  This is the cruxial idea
in a CDD.  The rationale behind this idea is that Free Software does work
perfectly in standard desktop applications (browser, mail, office suite),
but it does not in special applications for a minority of users.  There
are for sure exceptions - but try to look at the blockers in specific
Windows - Linux migration scenarios.   The point is basically that the
critical mass of Free Software developers is to small for specific applications.

My dream is that CDDs might help to bring people together to reach the
critical mass which is needed to develop high quality Free Software.
(And trust me - it is a long winding road to make people aware of this idea. ;-) )
I just learned that the way to wider acceptance is to provide techniques
people *want* to use and the tasks pages are one of these.  Once you
are able to provide a technical base people try to understand the idea
behind.

Kind regards

          Andreas.

  [1] http://wiki.debian.org/CDDNamingProposals
  [2] svn://svn.debian.org/cdd/cdd/trunk/cdd/doc/en/?rev=0&sc=0
  [3] http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/science/tasks/
  [4] http://debian-med.alioth.debian.org/
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[Ondrej Certik]

On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 8:23 AM, Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:
>
>> Great -- if it's internal to Debian, then all is fine. When I read
>> that, I said -- hell no, I don't want another derivative. :)
>
> I really love people who think "hell no" if they hear about just another
> derivative from Debian. ;-))
> Welcome in the boat of people who try to make Debian good enough to make
> any reason to derive void.  BTW, I'm constantly thinking about a better
> name for the beast than Custom Debian Distributions. [1]

Yes. I am using Debian from probably around 2001, but it took me 7
years to realize that it is so easy to fix things in Debian itself and
simply
make it the system right for my needs.

The only good derivative imho is Ubuntu, because in this particular
case it did more good than harm. Thanks to it, many people use the
packages that we fix in Debian. That is great.

>
>> change the link:
>>
>> http://wiki.debian.net/?DebianEdu
>>
>> to:
>>
>> http://wiki.debian.org/?DebianEdu
>
> Thanks for any hints.  If anybody wants to fix this kind of problems
> directly - the text is inside the cdd source package and can be accessed
> in SVN [2].
>
>> Andreas --- so the Debian Science CCD just provides the metapackages?
>> I mean -- all you have to do is to make sure that the user just
>> installs one metapackage and he gets a fully working system ready to
>> do whatever he needs in his field? And then you also make sure that
>> all the packages work nicely together?
>
> Well, this is one major point.
>
>> Or is there something more that I don't see. :)
>
> I try to propagate more things around it but things are developing slowly.
> If you consider that the tasks pages in the web [3] I frequently advertised
> here on this list took at least three years from the idea to the
> implementation
> you might imagine that there are more ideas hanging around how we could
> provide other clever tools if spare time would permit.  David Paleino had
> done a really good job with the Debian Med alioth pages [4] - the tasks
> pages
> are only one part of it.  My goal is to be the missing link between upstream
> developers and users of field specific software.  This is the cruxial idea
> in a CDD.  The rationale behind this idea is that Free Software does work
> perfectly in standard desktop applications (browser, mail, office suite),
> but it does not in special applications for a minority of users.  There
> are for sure exceptions - but try to look at the blockers in specific
> Windows - Linux migration scenarios.   The point is basically that the
> critical mass of Free Software developers is to small for specific
> applications.
>
> My dream is that CDDs might help to bring people together to reach the
> critical mass which is needed to develop high quality Free Software.
> (And trust me - it is a long winding road to make people aware of this idea.
> ;-) )
> I just learned that the way to wider acceptance is to provide techniques
> people *want* to use and the tasks pages are one of these.  Once you
> are able to provide a technical base people try to understand the idea
> behind.

It seems to me that all I need are quality packages and also make them
work together. But maybe some other people need more also.

I like the pages, for example this one:

http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/science/tasks/physics.html

unfortunately clicking the  Debian Science Project  at the top brings me to:

http://debian-science.alioth.debian.org/

which is an ugly page with no information whatsoever, so then I would
evade away thinking that Debian Science project is dead. You should
pick up a homepage and stick to it. Be it the wiki:

http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience

or some other place and this homepage should be the page that new
users like me should go to in the first place and read what it's all
about in 5 minutes.

Ondrej


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[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, 9 Jul 2008, Ondrej Certik wrote:

> It seems to me that all I need are quality packages and also make them
> work together. But maybe some other people need more also.

If you are using Debian for 7 years you will need not much more.  Try
to convince a not-yet Debian user ...

> I like the pages, for example this one:
>
> http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/science/tasks/physics.html
>
> unfortunately clicking the  Debian Science Project  at the top brings me to:
>
> http://debian-science.alioth.debian.org/
>
> which is an ugly page with no information whatsoever, so then I would
> evade away thinking that Debian Science project is dead. You should
> pick up a homepage and stick to it. Be it the wiki:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/DebianScience

Well, there was done a differentiation between the Homepage URL and
the Alioth project URL.  It's not my fault if the Alioth project page
just sucks. ;-(  (just look at the Debian Med pages to k