ia32 library repository, conclusion

[Javier Serrano Polo]

Hi list.

This message is sort of a final report that was planned.

One month's passed since I tried to contact the FTP masters. Discussions
are in the pkg-ia32-libs-maintainers alioth list. At the same time, the
ia32-libs split was presented by its maintainers.

The goal of the ia32 repository is to build and run applications for the
i386 architecture on different ones. That goal's been achieved for
amd64. Support for other architectures's been put off indefinitely
because of lack of resources and demand.

It should be remarked that security updates've been integrated during
last month.

As some may have noticed, a custom version of glibc's available. That
isn't a security update. It's a version that fixes #469035 to make
packages work out of the box. It's been released earlier than planned
because a potential upgrade problem was notified. A new official upload
was made later. I'll hopefully have enough time to switch back to the
official version, though that means rebuilding the repository (sorry, no
other choices left). It'll be fixed.

The system's already working, daily updated and bugs (none pending) are
being fixed. So, why isn't this system integrated in Debian yet?

The reasons aren't technical. If you're an amd64 user that wants to run
or build ia32 software, you can use this repository without problems.
Debian has a different approach in mind that will hopefully be ready for
lenny + 1. Both approaches have different requirements of server,
maintainer and user resources, but they both should cover the
repository's purpose.

As a side effect, some reasons this scheme isn't accepted are shared
with the ia32-libs split (more packages in the archive, extra conversion
step...). Let's hope that doesn't affect the split.

Regarding availability, the mirroring offer's been taken back without
any given reason. That's a problem indeed since the IP's gonna change
eventually. However, if you're still interested in this service, just
drop me a line and I'll solve that problem.

Requests, bug reports, comments are welcome (at my address) as usual.


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[Alex Samad]

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 10:45:13PM +0200, Javier Serrano Polo wrote:

> Hi list.
>
> This message is sort of a final report that was planned.
>
> One month's passed since I tried to contact the FTP masters. Discussions
> are in the pkg-ia32-libs-maintainers alioth list. At the same time, the
> ia32-libs split was presented by its maintainers.
>
> The goal of the ia32 repository is to build and run applications for the
> i386 architecture on different ones. That goal's been achieved for
> amd64. Support for other architectures's been put off indefinitely
> because of lack of resources and demand.
>
> It should be remarked that security updates've been integrated during
> last month.
>
> As some may have noticed, a custom version of glibc's available. That
> isn't a security update. It's a version that fixes #469035 to make
> packages work out of the box. It's been released earlier than planned
> because a potential upgrade problem was notified. A new official upload
> was made later. I'll hopefully have enough time to switch back to the
> official version, though that means rebuilding the repository (sorry, no
> other choices left). It'll be fixed.
>
> The system's already working, daily updated and bugs (none pending) are
> being fixed. So, why isn't this system integrated in Debian yet?
>
> The reasons aren't technical. If you're an amd64 user that wants to run
> or build ia32 software, you can use this repository without problems.
> Debian has a different approach in mind that will hopefully be ready for
> lenny + 1. Both approaches have different requirements of server,
> maintainer and user resources, but they both should cover the
> repository's purpose.
>
> As a side effect, some reasons this scheme isn't accepted are shared
> with the ia32-libs split (more packages in the archive, extra conversion
> step...). Let's hope that doesn't affect the split.
>
> Regarding availability, the mirroring offer's been taken back without
> any given reason. That's a problem indeed since the IP's gonna change
> eventually. However, if you're still interested in this service, just
> drop me a line and I'll solve that problem.
>
> Requests, bug reports, comments are welcome (at my address) as usual.
>

Hi Javier

Thanks for all the effort I for one have appreciated it.  With out
knowing all the reason is seems a bit short sighted by the people it
charge as this seems like a very useful program

Thanks
Alex

>
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>
>

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12/15/2004
Washington, DC
speaking at the White House Economic Conference

[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

Javier Serrano Polo <jasp00@...> writes:

> Regarding availability, the mirroring offer's been taken back without
> any given reason. That's a problem indeed since the IP's gonna change
> eventually. However, if you're still interested in this service, just
> drop me a line and I'll solve that problem.
>
> Requests, bug reports, comments are welcome (at my address) as usual.

Can you repeat instructions where to get the source for creating your
repository and the repository itself again? The last url I saw did just
give a permission denied.



As for the future direction of ia32-libs there have been some
discussions with ftp-master as well. Here's a summary:

- No package in main Depends/Build-Depends on converted 32bit libs
  (last exception is wine which is to be rectified)

- contrib/non-free packages may depend/build-depend on packages
  outsite of Debian

=> ia32-libs can be removed from ftp.debian.org without breaking
   testing transitions


- Having a package with source and prebuild debs in the archive is an
  awfull waste of space and work.

- The packages can be converted straight from the i386 packages as
  needed to provide
  + another repository somewhere like the one Javier made
  + a repository on the users system
  + truely on-the-fly when downloading/installing

  We have enough proof of concept here to know this works well.

=> we can remove ia32-libs from ftp.debian.org without breaking 32bit
   support. I have an idea for a smooth upgrade path as well but
   untested so far. [Note: we can't have a ia32-libs meta package in
   main depending on the converted debs as they won't be in main so it
   is a bit tricky.]


The ia32-libs-tools package in NEW and in the ia32-libs svn repository
can create a repository on the users system and has about 75% of true
on-the-fly conversion. I would verry much merge that with what javier
wrote so we only have one conversion mechanism with all the special
cases covered each one spottet so far.

What would be nice would be to integrate a repository of converted
packages (or the i386 packages needed for conversion) on the debian
amd64/ia64 CD/DVD images. I hope someone will step forward to do some
work there. Otherwise we will loose the ability to run 32bit programs
without network access or a i386 CD/DVD set.

MfG
        Goswin


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[Javier Serrano Polo]

El dc 14 de 05 de 2008 a les 05:10 +0200, en/na Goswin von Brederlow va
escriure:
> Can you repeat instructions where to get the source for creating your
> repository and the repository itself again? The last url I saw did just
> give a permission denied.

I repeat (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=464796#40),

The apt source is:
deb http://62.43.64.122/debian/ lenny main contrib non-free

The apt key can be found here:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=35;filename=ia32-jasp.asc;att=1;bug=464796

The unofficial package that creates the repository is debia32. There's
some documentation there.

Instructions for packages marked as "compile" manually were given as
bugs (maybe already closed) in their respective packages. I can send the
last resulting patch if someone needs it.

And I repeat
(http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-ia32-libs-maintainers/2008-April/000006.html), do not click the repository link, you won't be authorized. The mirroring is expected to resume and won't have that limitation. If you want to browse the repository do rsync to 62.43.64.122::ia32.

Note that I'll have to readjust libc6-i386 dependencies to return to the
official libc6 and rebuild again.

> As for the future direction of ia32-libs there have been some
> discussions with ftp-master as well. Here's a summary:
>
> - No package in main Depends/Build-Depends on converted 32bit libs
>   (last exception is wine which is to be rectified)

I never understood that part of the policy. Why a main source package
that produces a useful set of main binary packages can't produce
additional contrib or non-free packages? How do you solve that?

> What would be nice would be to integrate a repository of converted
> packages (or the i386 packages needed for conversion) on the debian
> amd64/ia64 CD/DVD images.

It would indeed. But if the official position is to convert from the
i386 mirror or use a separate one, then it's gonna be a conversion from
the i386 CD set or use a separate one. That could be a mini-CD (you
should try "Architecture: all", even with /emul/ia32-linux/), current
files are ~142MB.

Bye.


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[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

Javier Serrano Polo <jasp00@...> writes:

> El dc 14 de 05 de 2008 a les 05:10 +0200, en/na Goswin von Brederlow va
> escriure:
>> Can you repeat instructions where to get the source for creating your
>> repository and the repository itself again? The last url I saw did just
>> give a permission denied.
>
> I repeat (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=464796#40),
>
> The apt source is:
> deb http://62.43.64.122/debian/ lenny main contrib non-free

mrvn@frosties:~% wget -S http://62.43.64.122/debian/
--2008-05-15 05:20:12--  http://62.43.64.122/debian/
Connecting to 62.43.64.122:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response...
  HTTP/1.1 403 Forbidden
  Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 03:20:12 GMT
  Server: Apache/2.2.8 (Debian)
  Content-Length: 286
  Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=100
  Connection: Keep-Alive
  Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
2008-05-15 05:20:12 ERROR 403: Forbidden.

mrvn@frosties:~% wget -S http://62.43.64.122/debian/dists/lenny/main/source/Sources.gz
--2008-05-15 05:21:45--  http://62.43.64.122/debian/dists/lenny/main/source/Sources.gz
Connecting to 62.43.64.122:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response...
  HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
  Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 03:21:45 GMT
  Server: Apache/2.2.8 (Debian)
  Content-Length: 316
  Keep-Alive: timeout=15, max=100
  Connection: Keep-Alive
  Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
2008-05-15 05:21:45 ERROR 404: Not Found.


No browsing and no sources.

>> - No package in main Depends/Build-Depends on converted 32bit libs
>>   (last exception is wine which is to be rectified)
>
> I never understood that part of the policy. Why a main source package
> that produces a useful set of main binary packages can't produce
> additional contrib or non-free packages? How do you solve that?

It can produce contrib packages. It can not produce non-free packages
as that would imply the source is already non-free (not DFSG compliant).

>> What would be nice would be to integrate a repository of converted
>> packages (or the i386 packages needed for conversion) on the debian
>> amd64/ia64 CD/DVD images.
>
> It would indeed. But if the official position is to convert from the
> i386 mirror or use a separate one, then it's gonna be a conversion from
> the i386 CD set or use a separate one. That could be a mini-CD (you
> should try "Architecture: all", even with /emul/ia32-linux/), current
> files are ~142MB.

Or fetch (or fetch and convert) the packages during the CD building.

It would be simple to have the following layout on the CD:

dists/lenny/main/binary-amd64/
dists/lenny/main/debian-installer/binary-amd64/
dists/lenny/main/i386/binary-amd64/

for already converted packages or

dists/lenny/main/binary-amd64/
dists/lenny/main/binary-i386/
dists/lenny/main/debian-installer/binary-amd64/

for conversion at the users system.

But someone has to dig into debianCD, understand it and add a patch
for it.

MfG
        Goswin


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[Javier Serrano Polo]

Hi.

For those interested in rebuilding the special packages, there're
instructions in the server path /debian/setup/README.

Bye.


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[Alex Samad]

Hi

[sorry for top posting and not cutting - but the email has the jist of
the background]

Is 62.43.64.122 not available any more. Should I guess from this that
the debi386 package should be used to build the required ia32-* packages
locally ?

Alex

On Wed, May 14, 2008 at 10:41:05PM +0200, Javier Serrano Polo wrote:

> El dc 14 de 05 de 2008 a les 05:10 +0200, en/na Goswin von Brederlow va
> escriure:
> > Can you repeat instructions where to get the source for creating your
> > repository and the repository itself again? The last url I saw did just
> > give a permission denied.
>
> I repeat (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=464796#40),
>
> The apt source is:
> deb http://62.43.64.122/debian/ lenny main contrib non-free
>
> The apt key can be found here:
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=35;filename=ia32-jasp.asc;att=1;bug=464796
>
> The unofficial package that creates the repository is debia32. There's
> some documentation there.
>
> Instructions for packages marked as "compile" manually were given as
> bugs (maybe already closed) in their respective packages. I can send the
> last resulting patch if someone needs it.
>
> And I repeat
> (http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-ia32-libs-maintainers/2008-April/000006.html), do not click the repository link, you won't be authorized. The mirroring is expected to resume and won't have that limitation. If you want to browse the repository do rsync to 62.43.64.122::ia32.
>
> Note that I'll have to readjust libc6-i386 dependencies to return to the
> official libc6 and rebuild again.
>
> > As for the future direction of ia32-libs there have been some
> > discussions with ftp-master as well. Here's a summary:
> >
> > - No package in main Depends/Build-Depends on converted 32bit libs
> >   (last exception is wine which is to be rectified)
>
> I never understood that part of the policy. Why a main source package
> that produces a useful set of main binary packages can't produce
> additional contrib or non-free packages? How do you solve that?
>
> > What would be nice would be to integrate a repository of converted
> > packages (or the i386 packages needed for conversion) on the debian
> > amd64/ia64 CD/DVD images.
>
> It would indeed. But if the official position is to convert from the
> i386 mirror or use a separate one, then it's gonna be a conversion from
> the i386 CD set or use a separate one. That could be a mini-CD (you
> should try "Architecture: all", even with /emul/ia32-linux/), current
> files are ~142MB.
>
> Bye.
>
>
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> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-amd64-REQUEST@...
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...
>
>

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