how create a Debian/junior user session only under Debian/Etch

Hi,

Do you know how to create a pure Debian/Junior X session for my child ?
I'm using a Debian/Etch and I don't want to Install all Debian/junior distrib,
but just configure a Deb/junior session (with all packages + graphic user
environment).

I can do all manually, but I would like to know if something
more "user-friendly" exist ?

Best regards.
Salokine.


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I found http://wiki.debian.org/DebianJr/SpecialSession

Is it possible to use a .desktop file in the home user directory ?
In this article, we need to use super-user to write in /usr/share/xsessions/

I think this article is what I search...
If you know other things better, say me.

Bye.
Salokine.


Le dimanche 11 mai 2008 10:16, Salokine Terata a écrit :

> Hi,
>
> Do you know how to create a pure Debian/Junior X session for my child ?
> I'm using a Debian/Etch and I don't want to Install all Debian/junior
> distrib, but just configure a Deb/junior session (with all packages +
> graphic user environment).
>
> I can do all manually, but I would like to know if something
> more "user-friendly" exist ?
>
> Best regards.
> Salokine.

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[Andrew Sackville-West]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:33:45AM +0200, Salokine Terata wrote:
> I found http://wiki.debian.org/DebianJr/SpecialSession
>
> Is it possible to use a .desktop file in the home user directory ?
> In this article, we need to use super-user to write in /usr/share/xsessions/

I'm honestly not sure if you can use a .desktop file in the home
directory, but you *can* call different programs on startup. If you
want your junior user to just run gcompris, for example, you could
create ~/.xsession with the line

exec /usr/games/gcompris

this would start just the game gcompris as the user's Xsession.  You
will have to use gdm to select "user's .xsession" or soemthing like
that under the session menu. That will then execute just the .xsession
file.

>
> I think this article is what I search...
> If you know other things better, say me.

really, to make it work nice and smooth, and to allow other users to
run a similar type of session like that described in the wiki, you
should put that desktop file in /usr/share/xsessions/. It's a one time
action, and from then on that "session" will be available in the menu
of gdm.

...

> >
> > Do you know how to create a pure Debian/Junior X session for my child ?
> > I'm using a Debian/Etch and I don't want to Install all Debian/junior
> > distrib, but just configure a Deb/junior session (with all packages +
> > graphic user environment).

you seem to be on the right track already, but be aware that there
currently isn't any such thing as a "deb/junior session". You pretty
much have to set it up yourself as described in the wiki.

A

[Andreas Tille]

On Sun, 11 May 2008, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:

> I'm honestly not sure if you can use a .desktop file in the home

I think you can: desktop-profiles.

BTW, the debian-edu packages are using this technique and it is planed
to include support for this in the CDD framework.  There is a long
standing offer from my side to start building Debian Junior packages
using cdd-dev which might drastically simplyfy things.  Some work
into this direction was done by me in 2004 and is not up to date any
more.  I injected it into CDD SVN anyway at

     http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/cdd/projects/junior/trunk/debian-junior/?rev=0&sc=0

and I volunteer to update them to current state in case you ask
me to do so.  The extra advantage you would get are nice overview
pages like

     http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/science/tasks/   or
     http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/edu/tasks/

for free.

Kind regards

        Andreas.

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[Ben Armstrong]

On Mon, 12 May 2008 17:19:03 +0200 (CEST)
Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

> There is a long
> standing offer from my side to start building Debian Junior packages
> using cdd-dev which might drastically simplyfy things.  Some work
> into this direction was done by me in 2004 and is not up to date any
> more.  I injected it into CDD SVN anyway at
>
>      http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/cdd/projects/junior/trunk/debian-junior/?rev=0&sc=0
>
> and I volunteer to update them to current state in case you ask
> me to do so.  The extra advantage you would get are nice overview
> pages like
>
>      http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/science/tasks/   or
>      http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/edu/tasks/
>
> for free.

If I'm obstructing progress in the Debian Jr. project and others want
to move it forward, perhaps it's time I just step down and see where it
goes.  There is a queue of changes that are really quite simple that
need to be done to some metapackages and they are indeed showing signs
of age.  They are, as Andreas argued earlier, and I did not heed, more
trouble to maintain this way than any small advantage that might be
gained by being able to release packages individually.

The one thing that keeps me from giving it up, other than an emotional
attachment to my first Debian subproject, is that I have not seen a
clear successor to take over the reins.  What the project needs is
someone with the skill, both technically and with working with people,
vision, and energy to keep the project moving forwards.

Ben


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[Andreas Tille]

On Mon, 12 May 2008, Ben Armstrong wrote:

> If I'm obstructing progress in the Debian Jr. project and others want
> to move it forward, perhaps it's time I just step down and see where it
> goes.  There is a queue of changes that are really quite simple that
> need to be done to some metapackages and they are indeed showing signs
> of age.  They are, as Andreas argued earlier, and I did not heed, more
> trouble to maintain this way than any small advantage that might be
> gained by being able to release packages individually.

BTW, Jonas Smedegaard told me that you build your control information
based on DebTags which is currently not supported automatically in the
tasks files of cdd-dev.  What I could imagine is a little shell script
that checks the packages that are marked with a certain DebTag and just
issue a warning if the package is not in the tasks list.  This should
more or less as an equivalent to a functionality I would regard very
reasonable.

> The one thing that keeps me from giving it up, other than an emotional
> attachment to my first Debian subproject, is that I have not seen a
> clear successor to take over the reins.  What the project needs is
> someone with the skill, both technically and with working with people,
> vision, and energy to keep the project moving forwards.

This is *definitely* needed.  I'm clearly convinced that it needs a
person that gives his love to the project to maintain the basic stuff.
While the good news is that I'm quite optimistic that we make good
progress to enhance common CDD tools that take over the grunt work
via automatisation you need a head of the project.  This head might
be technically hidden behind "Maintainer: [mailinglist]" - but it
needs a real soul to push the project further.

However, Ben, I fail to see the reason why you connect a technical
change (individual packages - cdd-dev builded packages) with an
organizational change.

Kind regards

        Andreas.

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[Ben Armstrong]

On Mon, 12 May 2008 17:19:03 +0200 (CEST)
Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:

> There is a long
> standing offer from my side to start building Debian Junior packages
> using cdd-dev which might drastically simplyfy things.  Some work
> into this direction was done by me in 2004 and is not up to date any
> more.  I injected it into CDD SVN anyway at
>
>      http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/cdd/projects/junior/trunk/debian-junior/?rev=0&sc=0
>
> and I volunteer to update them to current state in case you ask
> me to do so.  The extra advantage you would get are nice overview
> pages like
>
>      http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/science/tasks/   or
>      http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/edu/tasks/
>
> for free.

If I'm obstructing progress in the Debian Jr. project and others want
to move it forward, perhaps it's time I just step down and see where it
goes.  There is a queue of changes that are really quite simple that
need to be done to some metapackages and they are indeed showing signs
of age.  They are, as Andreas argued earlier, and I did not heed, more
trouble to maintain this way than any small advantage that might be
gained by being able to release packages individually.

The one thing that keeps me from giving it up, other than an emotional
attachment to my first Debian subproject, is that I have not seen a
clear successor to take over the reins.  What the project needs is
someone with the skill, both technically and with working with people,
vision, and energy to keep the project moving forwards.

Ben


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[Andreas Tille]

On Tue, 13 May 2008, synrg@... wrote:

> The one thing that keeps me from giving it up, other than an emotional
> attachment to my first Debian subproject, is that I have not seen a
> clear successor to take over the reins.  What the project needs is
> someone with the skill, both technically and with working with people,
> vision, and energy to keep the project moving forwards.

As I said: I could definitely provide technical help as I did in the
Debian Edu project which was welcome by the very strong Debian Edu team
but I draw a clear line between technical help and strategic development
of a project.  I'm really convinced that leading more than one project
is wrong and Debian Med consumes my spare time (not to talk about kind
of having the leading role in general CDD development).  So I will
definitely not lead Debian Junior.

Kind regards and thanks for all your work on this, Ben

        Andreas.

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[Ben Armstrong]

On Thu, 22 May 2008 10:36:19 +0200 (CEST)
Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:
> As I said: I could definitely provide technical help as I did in the
> Debian Edu project which was welcome by the very strong Debian Edu team
> but I draw a clear line between technical help and strategic development
> of a project.  I'm really convinced that leading more than one project
> is wrong and Debian Med consumes my spare time (not to talk about kind
> of having the leading role in general CDD development).  So I will
> definitely not lead Debian Junior.

Understood.  No, for better or worse I am stuck with the job.  Thanks,
yes I would like your technical help.  If you could do the switch to
cdd-dev and bring things up to date with the current metapackages
(minus the dependencies that have caused the removal of junior-system
and junior-puzzle) I would appreciate it.

> Kind regards and thanks for all your work on this, Ben

Thanks, Andreas.

Ben


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[Andreas Tille]

On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Ben Armstrong wrote:

> Understood.  No, for better or worse I am stuck with the job.  Thanks,
> yes I would like your technical help.  If you could do the switch to
> cdd-dev and bring things up to date with the current metapackages
> (minus the dependencies that have caused the removal of junior-system
> and junior-puzzle) I would appreciate it.

I can do this probably until the end of the week.  BTW, the problem
of removal will not happen when using cdd-dev because cdd-dev checks
whether dependencies exist before building the final control file.
So the resulting meta packages can be validly installed on package
building time.

Kind regards

       Andreas.

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[Ben Armstrong]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 08:30:19 +0200 (CEST)
Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:
> I can do this probably until the end of the week.

Thanks.

> BTW, the problem
> of removal will not happen when using cdd-dev because cdd-dev checks
> whether dependencies exist before building the final control file.
> So the resulting meta packages can be validly installed on package
> building time.

Nice.

Ben


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[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Ben Armstrong wrote (on Debian Junior list):

>> BTW, the problem
>> of removal will not happen when using cdd-dev because cdd-dev checks
>> whether dependencies exist before building the final control file.
>> So the resulting meta packages can be validly installed on package
>> building time.
>
> Nice.

I just detected one more issue to discuss before I start turning the single meta
packages of Debian Junior into build all from one source using cdd-dev:  The
Debian Edu people convinced me that strong "Depends" is not a good idea for meta
packages because it forces you to deinstall the meta package if you want to get
rid of a single dependency.  There were other issues that let them give
preference of "Recommends" instead of "Depends" which were previosely discussed.
In consequence Petter Reinholdtsen wrote a script that turns every occurence
of "Depends" in a tasks file into "Recommends".  Later I took over this
script for the general cdd-dev (by factorising it to build more than only
Debian Edu).  I did not widthdraw the decision to change the Depends in
Recommends because it seemed reasonable.

Reading your junior-arcade/README.Debian which says:

   This package is a metapackage; it depends on several other packages to make
   them be installed when it is installed. If you want to remove one of those
   packages, you have to remove this package as well. The other packages won't be
   touched.

I wonder if you are happy with this decision.  IMHO there are two
options:

   1. You are fine with turning Depends into Recommends
      --> Results in a quick and flawless port from single packages
          to cdd-dev
   2. You insist on the former behaviour and stick to strong Depends
      --> Would need to touch debian-edu and debian-med source to
          verify that there are no explicite Depends any more and
          turn them into Recommends manually
      --> Change cdd-dev to accept Depends as they are.

I just want to discuss this here, because you might have reasons to
stick to the Depends which is really fine.  In principle we just
waste a feature in cdd-dev to say I *really* want a depends from this
package - there might be strong reasons even if Recommends is normally
fine since even apt-get considers Recommends as default installation
candidates.  I'm also willing to do the needed changes - but currently
it is somehow bad timing.  We are short before a freeze and chances
are good that we miss something that might have a stronger influence
than we expect.

So my plan for a future rewrite (which might be needed anyway because
we have to cope with the "differnet packages on different archs"
problem) is to enable strong Depends somehow (perhaps via command
line option or even by default and editors of tasks files will be
asked to explicitely express what they really mean.

In short: If you want Debian Junior packages builded with cdd-dev
in Lenny you have to live with the Depends -> Recommends feature.
If you can't live with this, please be patient until Lenny+1.

Kind regards

         Andreas.

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[Jonas Smedegaard]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:12:05PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
> Reading your junior-arcade/README.Debian which says:
>
>   This package is a metapackage; it depends on several other packages
>   to make them be installed when it is installed. If you want to
>   remove one of those packages, you have to remove this package as
>   well. The other packages won't be touched.

You might also want to consider that while the above is true using
apt-get, when you use aptitude it will automatically deinstall those
other packages when removing the explicitly installed package.

Since before the release of Etch, aptitude has been the official
recommended install tool (despite many users and developers still
personally recommending apt-get).

So even if keeping your current hard dependencies, you might consider
dropping that (arguably bogus) promise from the description.


Kind regards,

  - Jonas

- --
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: [phone]  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

  - Enden er nær: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm
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[Andreas Tille]

Hi,

if you like have a look at

    http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/junior/tasks/

which was rendered from recently checked in tasks files at

    svn://svn.debian.org/cdd/projects/junior/trunk/debian-junior/

I'll keep on posting about this topic ...

Kind regards

       Andreas.

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[Ben Armstrong]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:12:05 +0200 (CEST)
Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:
>    1. You are fine with turning Depends into Recommends
>       --> Results in a quick and flawless port from single packages
>           to cdd-dev

This is fine.  There is nothing in Junior we absolutely can't do
without, so recommends is appropriate.

Ben


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[Ben Armstrong]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:57:47 +0200 (CEST)
Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:
>     http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/junior/tasks/

Nice!  Except for the incorrect references to debian-science and
debian-med, it looks great. :)

Thanks,
Ben


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[Ben Armstrong]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:57:47 +0200 (CEST)
Andreas Tille <tillea@...> wrote:
>     http://cdd.alioth.debian.org/junior/tasks/

Looking at the descriptions all at once like that is helpful.  Right
away I see a problem I didn't see before: in 3D Games we
depend on the transitional package armagetron instead of armagatronad,
as we ought to.

Ben


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[Andreas Tille]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Ben Armstrong wrote:

> Nice!  Except for the incorrect references to debian-science and
> debian-med, it looks great. :)

Well, Debian Science is gone and Debian Med will be vanish soon (I just
got this entry of my TODO list added recently and it is not really a big
problem - just a remaining string in the templates for the scripts that
were originally designed for Debian Med by David Paleino (thanks again
David for bringing this up and running).

Kind regards

          Andreas.

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