headphones

[Schoap D]

Hi,

What are good headphones? What are good ones to search for on the second
hand market? For about 50 euro's can you get a good one?

Thanks in advance,

Dirk
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[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:52 AM, schoappied <schoappied@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What are good headphones? What are good ones to search for on the second
> hand market? For about 50 euro's can you get a good one?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Dirk

You'll have to verify the 50 euros part but assuming 2:1 then the
typical first answer for pop/rock type recording/listening is often
the Sony MDR-7506. Very popular. Most pop music sounds pretty goo don
them. They wear well. Easy on your head and ears. Nice padding.
Sturdy. Sealed so little outside noise. Good for singers with good
isolation. A bit bassy. (Understatement) A very good choice. I've
owned a couple of pairs for 6-7 years. Both still work well and are
quite worn out at this point.

If you're more of a jazz/classical listener then I much prefer my AKG
K240's but they're typically a bit more expensive. The model I have
(DF's) is no longer generally available but there are newer ones that
sound very good to me. More like 75-100 euros, again assuming 2:1.

Hope this helps,
Mark
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[Schoap D]

>
> u'll have to verify the 50 euros part but assuming 2:1 then the
> typical first answer for pop/rock type recording/listening is often
> the Sony MDR-7506.  A bit bassy. (Understatement) A very good choice. I
>
> If you're more of a jazz/classical listener then I much prefer my AKG
> K240's but they're typically a bit more expensive.
Thanks. And if I say that I want to use it for practising bassguitar
(and maybe guitar and keys), does that have influence on your advice?

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[FishB8]

Back on Wednesday 16 July 2008, schoappied was like:

> > u'll have to verify the 50 euros part but assuming 2:1 then the
> > typical first answer for pop/rock type recording/listening is often
> > the Sony MDR-7506.  A bit bassy. (Understatement) A very good choice. I
> >
> > If you're more of a jazz/classical listener then I much prefer my AKG
> > K240's but they're typically a bit more expensive.
>
> Thanks. And if I say that I want to use it for practising bassguitar
> (and maybe guitar and keys), does that have influence on your advice?
>

The MDR-7506 should be just fine for that. They are pretty standard. People
like them not only because they sound decent, but because they take wear and
tear a lot better than most other designs. I've had a pair for 8 years with
lots of abuse from live shows and they are still in good condition.

-Reuben


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[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 9:15 AM, schoappied <schoappied@...> wrote:

>>
>> u'll have to verify the 50 euros part but assuming 2:1 then the
>> typical first answer for pop/rock type recording/listening is often
>> the Sony MDR-7506.  A bit bassy. (Understatement) A very good choice. I
>>
>> If you're more of a jazz/classical listener then I much prefer my AKG
>> K240's but they're typically a bit more expensive.
> Thanks. And if I say that I want to use it for practising bassguitar
> (and maybe guitar and keys), does that have influence on your advice?
>

Assuming you're a rock bass player then the 7506's will be good for
that. However if you then move to playing live using a regular amp
your bass will likely sound *quite* different and that can be
frustrating. If you intend to practice and then record in your home
studio then I find the 7506's a better overall product for this use
since they're well isolated.

Just my views,
Mark
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[Jeff Sandys]

schoappied wrote:

What are good headphones? What are good ones to search for on the second
hand market? For about 50 euro's can you get a good one?

The Audio-Technica ATH-M40fs are designed for studio monitoring with a very flat response and have been compared favorably against the Sennheisers HD280Pro.  

       

[c]

On Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:45:23AM -0500, Reuben Martin wrote:

> Back on Wednesday 16 July 2008, schoappied was like:
> > > u'll have to verify the 50 euros part but assuming 2:1 then the
> > > typical first answer for pop/rock type recording/listening is often
> > > the Sony MDR-7506.  A bit bassy. (Understatement) A very good choice. I
> > >
> > > If you're more of a jazz/classical listener then I much prefer my AKG
> > > K240's but they're typically a bit more expensive.
> >
> > Thanks. And if I say that I want to use it for practising bassguitar
> > (and maybe guitar and keys), does that have influence on your advice?
> >
>
> The MDR-7506 should be just fine for that. They are pretty standard. People

agreed. bought a pair in 1997. the last pair of headphones i'll ever buy?
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[Mark Knecht]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM, c_r <_@...> wrote:

> On Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 11:45:23AM -0500, Reuben Martin wrote:
>> Back on Wednesday 16 July 2008, schoappied was like:
>> > > u'll have to verify the 50 euros part but assuming 2:1 then the
>> > > typical first answer for pop/rock type recording/listening is often
>> > > the Sony MDR-7506.  A bit bassy. (Understatement) A very good choice. I
>> > >
>> > > If you're more of a jazz/classical listener then I much prefer my AKG
>> > > K240's but they're typically a bit more expensive.
>> >
>> > Thanks. And if I say that I want to use it for practising bassguitar
>> > (and maybe guitar and keys), does that have influence on your advice?
>> >
>>
>> The MDR-7506 should be just fine for that. They are pretty standard. People
>
> agreed. bought a pair in 1997. the last pair of headphones i'll ever buy?

Nahh...if you're serious about mixing you need a few others just to
ensure your mixes work in different environments. It's good to have
some open-air cans, some isolated ones like the 7605's, even from a
few different manufacturers. Just like listening on your studio
monitors is different than the car. Still, the mix has to work in
both.

That said the 7605's have been the ones that I've listened to at least
90% of the time over nearly the last decade but when I mix with them I
find people complain my mix doesn't have enough bottom end.

- Mark
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[Florin Andrei]

schoappied wrote:
>
> What are good headphones? What are good ones to search for on the second
> hand market? For about 50 euro's can you get a good one?

First off: What is a "good" headphone is a matter of highly personal
preference. You will get maybe 20 different opinions, and in the end not
even one of them will seem "good" to you. If you can, it is highly
recommended to test the phones yourself and see how you like them.

Second from top: good headphones are full size. If it doesn't cover your
ears entirely, it's probably not good. Exceptions are few (high quality
ear canal devices such as Ultimate Ears and stuff like that).

There are two types of full size headphones: open-air and sealed.

1. Open air are as good as the technology permits, because they have
fewer design constraints. This is the category containing the phones
usually deemed "best" overall, such as Grado GS 1000, Sennheiser HD 650,
AKG K701, Beyerdynamic DT 880. But all those models are expensive, way
beyond the price range you mentioned, I put them here just as a
reference, to see what can be achieved if money is no problem.

I've a pair of Sennheiser HD 600 (previous generation, got replaced by
the 650 not long ago) and they are extremely clean. I learned to trust
them almost completely: if the HD 600 doesn't reveal it, it either
doesn't exist or it doesn't matter. Also, they don't "color" the sound;
what you hear is what is actually on the disk.
Something like an HD 580 (previous generation from the 600) might
collect dust in a corner and might be had for like $100 - $200 if you're
lucky, and should provide very good quality at an excellent price.
That's probably as cheap as it gets for a good open-air phone, it's what
I would try to get if I had 50 euros in my pocket (and some bargaining
skills).
Maybe an AKG K 240 S will be pretty close in terms of price and quality,
but it's a bit brighter than the Sennheiser.
Or try one of the low-end Grado - I have the SR 125, they should be in
the same price range and are pretty good, but _very_ bright - some
people hate them for that, and 25% of me is one of them :-). But they
are _extremely_ revealing; it's like looking at the sound with a
microscope. Of course, if you just want to enjoy the overall picture,
then you should rather use a wide-screen TV (Senn HD 650) instead of a
microscope (Grado SR 125).

The problem with open-air is that they do not isolate you from ambient
noise. So if you're in a noisy environment, that's a problem. You need
silence to use an open-air phone to its full potential.

2. Sealed phones solve that problem, at the cost of a slight performance
drop. They don't sound as good as open-air, but will attenuate the
ambient noise.
Probably the most recommended one in this class is Sennheiser HD 280
Pro. I own that model and, for $100, they are very good. They are pretty
standard in recording studios, they give them to vocalists to monitor
the tracks because, being sealed, the tracks don't leak into the
microphone. I use them at work, in the office: at -15dB isolation, they
cut a lot of the yapping from adjacent cubicles and hallway. But the
focus of the HD 280 is quality, not isolation.
You may even try an ear canal phone (not cheap earbuds, but real ear
canal devices). They can be very good, although for 50 euros I'm not
sure if you can get to the really good ones. And of course it's not
indicated to buy these second-hand.

Just keep shopping around, there's probably a lot of good phones out
there. See what the studios use and try and get one of those if it's in
your price range.

See this site:

http://headphone.com/

It's a commercial site, they make money out of selling headphones, but
I've found their reviews very accurate. Whenever I tried a phone, my
opinion and their review matched pretty closely. So I kind of trust them.

Of course, take _anyone's_ advice with a grain of salt and do your own
tests if you can.

Good luck.

--
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/
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[Florin Andrei]

By the way, don't buy based on the brand name. Just because the company
ABC makes the "God phone" XYZ doesn't mean everything they make is good.
I got the wireless Sennheiser RS 130 a few years back, because the
adults in this household tend to watch movies at the hours when the kids
are asleep, so headphones are pretty much mandatory. But sometimes it
feels like I've seen roadkill with better bass response than the RS 130.

Maybe I'm too picky, maybe I got spoiled by the better phones I use. But
back then the 130 were among the best wireless available. Perhaps I
should just get a 3.5mm cable extender (about 5 meters should do), hook
it up to regular phones and call it a day, although that kind of thing
has a low wife-approval factor, quite justified in fact.

One exception to this rule is Grado. They seem to consistently deliver
good phones. Call them too bright if you wish, but their cheaper phones
are like their more expensive models, only less, if that makes sense.
Definitely better than the usual junk at the audio store, although the
"Grado sound" may not be to everyone's liking. Heck, for regular
everyday listening I can't stand them either. :shrug: :rolleyes: :scowl:

--
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/
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[c]

On Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 01:06:56PM -0700, Florin Andrei wrote:

> them almost completely: if the HD 600 doesn't reveal it, it either
> doesn't exist or it doesn't matter. Also, they don't "color" the sound;

another factor is the headphone amp. impedances, signal levels

an identical headphone might sound crap on one plug but great on another

and ive evern had variations in an identical model. due to humidity exposure, operating temp, or component tolerances etc
 
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[Schoap D]

> I've a pair of Sennheiser HD 600 (previous generation, got replaced by
> the 650 not long ago) and they are extremely clean. I learned to trust
> them almost completely: if the HD 600 doesn't reveal it, it either
> doesn't exist or it doesn't matter. Also, they don't "color" the sound;
> what you hear is what is actually on the disk.
> Something like an HD 580 (previous generation from the 600) might
> collect dust in a corner and might be had for like $100 - $200 if you're
> lucky, and should provide very good quality at an excellent price.
And how is the HD 570?
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[Schoap D]

> There are two types of full size headphones: open-air and sealed.
>
>
>  
So it's not recommend to use a sealed headphone when you're on the road
riding a bike? How sealed is sealed...

You don't make a distinction between pop/ rock music and jazz/ classic
music headphones?
(by the way: Isn't a distinction between light music (eg pop/rock/ jazz)
and classic music better?)
> Probably the most recommended one in this class is Sennheiser HD 280
>  
There are some of this types on ebay for around 47 euro's, but I don't
know if I can trust it and if they're exactly the same type of the one
you have mentioned...

http://search.ebay.nl/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=Sennheiser+HD+280


Thanks for your comments!



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[Paul Coccoli]

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:21 PM, Florin Andrei <florin@...> wrote:
> One exception to this rule is Grado. They seem to consistently deliver
> good phones. Call them too bright if you wish, but their cheaper phones
> are like their more expensive models, only less, if that makes sense.
> Definitely better than the usual junk at the audio store, although the
> "Grado sound" may not be to everyone's liking. Heck, for regular
> everyday listening I can't stand them either. :shrug: :rolleyes: :scowl:

I love my Grado SR-60s.  I think I paid $65US.  Yes, they are on the
bright side, but I like that.  They're not the most comfortable pair
of headphones, but not too bad.  Bass is ample; much better than the
speakers I have connected to my computer (small Celestions bookshelf
speakers with a Tascam power amp).

For the in-ear types, I have the Etymotic Research ER-6, which also
sound very good but again, since they go in your ear canal, they're
much less comfortable than the Grados.  The isolation is amazing
though.  I can't hear anything else when I'm listening to "dense"
(meaning heavy) music on them.  Also about $65 US, I think.
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[Schoap D]

Jeff Sandys wrote:
>  
> The Audio-Technica ATH-M40fs are designed for studio monitoring with a very
> flat response and have been compared favorably against the Sennheisers
> HD280Pro.  
>
>
>  
Mmh ok, interesting. I think 100 euro's is to much for me for the HD280
Pro... So maybe the Audio-Technica are good for me!??

and what about the cheaper ones of Sennheiser and Audio-Technica?

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[Mark Knecht]

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:36 AM, schoappied <schoappied@...> wrote:

> Jeff Sandys wrote:
>>
>> The Audio-Technica ATH-M40fs are designed for studio monitoring with a very
>> flat response and have been compared favorably against the Sennheisers
>> HD280Pro.
>>
>>
>>
> Mmh ok, interesting. I think 100 euro's is to much for me for the HD280
> Pro... So maybe the Audio-Technica are good for me!??
>
> and what about the cheaper ones of Sennheiser and Audio-Technica?

As someone suggested earlier the best thing to do is go somewhere and
listen to a few sets. Not knowing where you're located I cannot give
suggestions on that, but here in California we have a few places like
Guitar Center where you can usually listen to a few different sets
before buying.

In my mind this is a no-brainer because you NEED to eventually have 3
or 4 sets, they will all sound different and you'll only figure out
which ones *you* really like by listening to a lot of material over
long periods of time. If you see the logic of buying 3 sets over the
next 18 months, then pick any one of them today and go enjoy. I think
for bass practice the 7506's are going to work out great, but they
aren't the perfect set of headphones. Surprise - none will be perfect
even at 500 euros, much less 50, but every one suggested is probably
worth owning over time.

Just my 2 euros, ;-)
Mark
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[Florin Andrei]

Mark Knecht wrote:
>
> for bass practice the 7506's are going to work out great, but they
> aren't the perfect set of headphones. Surprise - none will be perfect

Previously I was speaking in general. But on the particular topic of
listening to bass, I would appreciate some more insight, since I'm not a
bass player.
So, if you're practising bass guitar, do you want your headphones to
emphasize bass, or do you want them to be flat?

A lot of the phones mentioned here are flat, or even a bit light on the
bass side. Most of the Sennheiser, the AKG K 240, to some degree the
Grado - all these are pretty flat, they don't emphasize anything, or not
in the bass range at least.

I only know of one phone that is very accurate and has a pretty full
bass - the Beyerdynamic DT 880, but at $320 it's beyond the price range
mentioned by the OP.

So, do you want the bass over-emphasized when practising it?

(OTOH, if the phone is accurate, even if it has a thin bass, I guess it
can be corrected in the preamp. But again, I'm not a bass player.)

--
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/
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[Florin Andrei]

schoappied wrote:
> And how is the HD 570?

I don't know, I never tried it. Read the review on headphone.com if it
has one.

--
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/
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[Florin Andrei]

schoappied wrote:
> So it's not recommend to use a sealed headphone when you're on the road
> riding a bike?

I would not attempt that as long as I intend to live a long and happy
life. :-)

> How sealed is sealed...

Look at the attenuation factor. A sealed phone should be between -10 and
-20 dB, is my guess.

But anyway, the difference is the back of the acoustic membrane.
Sealed phones - the back moves in a closed box.
Open-air - the back is in an open cavity. There might actually be holes
on the outside of the phone, through which you may actually see the
membrane (not always).

> You don't make a distinction between pop/ rock music and jazz/ classic
> music headphones?
> (by the way: Isn't a distinction between light music (eg pop/rock/ jazz)
> and classic music better?)

Music is music, and an accurate phone is an accurate phone. What works
best for one kind of music should work for any other kind. I think the
so-called "phones for classic music", or whatever, are a commercial
gimmick. The phone should not do anything. Quite the opposite, the phone
must get out of the way and just be a pure conduit for the sound, it
must introduce as few changes as possible.

The only exception might be when you're doing special work. E.g., you're
mixing the tracks and you need a _very_ revealing phone to spot any
defect. Something like a Grado might help.
I don't know what happens when playing the bass guitar. Do you want the
bass emphasized? I'm not a bass player so I can't answer that.

Otherwise, just get the flattest and most accurate ones you can afford,
and learn to trust them.
Like Mark said, it often helps to get two or three phones over a period
of time, if you can afford them, and use each one of them as needed.

> There are some of this types on ebay for around 47 euro's, but I don't
> know if I can trust it and if they're exactly the same type of the one
> you have mentioned...
&g