differenct temperment

4 Messages Forum Options Options
Permalink
paul beach-2
differenct temperment
Reply Threaded More
Print post
Permalink
Hello,
Equal temperment is sometimes considered poor because it does not align
very well with the major third. There are other schemes here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament

In particular when the next semitone is the 22-nd root or 31-st root of
two then; the third and fifth come into good alignment.

Is there a methodical way to implement this
--
  paul beach
  sniffyraven@...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
It's the best place to buy or sell services for
just about anything Open Source.
http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
_______________________________________________
Audacity-nyquist mailing list
Audacity-nyquist@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-nyquist
edgar-rft
Re: differenct temperment
Reply Threaded More
Print post
Permalink
Hi paul,

> Hello,
> Equal temperment is sometimes considered poor because it does not align
> very well with the major third. There are other schemes here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
>
> In particular when the next semitone is the 22-nd root or 31-st root of
> two then; the third and fifth come into good alignment.
>
> Is there a methodical way to implement this

Edgar: depends on what you want to do.

Nyquist 'hz-to-step' and 'step-to-hz' for computing tuning pitch out of MIDI
values and vice versa are defined in 'nyquist.lsp' around line 600 ff.

To make the pitch transformation environment work right in a non-linear
tuning system is a more difficult task, because it depends on linear
transformations. How would you e.g. implement a glissando in a non-linear
environment? I have no idea.

I first need to have a closer look at the math on the wiki page. There
also is a chapter about alternative tuning systems in Rick Taube's Common
Music (but with the conclusion that this will probably never work with
computers if I remember right).

Maybe Roger can help with more details.

- edgar




--
The author of this email does not necessarily endorse the
following advertisements, which are the sole responsibility
of the advertiser:

_______________________________________________________________
Schon gehört? Der neue WEB.DE MultiMessenger kann`s mit allen:
http://www.produkte.web.de/messenger/?did=3016


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
It's the best place to buy or sell services for
just about anything Open Source.
http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
_______________________________________________
Audacity-nyquist mailing list
Audacity-nyquist@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-nyquist
paul beach-2
Re: different temperment
Reply Threaded More
Print post
Permalink
Hi again,
It is trivial to calculate Equal Temperment; see Excel modul below for
the usual 12 tone as well as 31 tones. Non-linear is usually mentioned
in the context of differential equations. The 12 tone scale is in every
computer music scale, as I have done, and always unavailable for
modification.  If there is a reason to do a glide or glissado, frequency
modulation works quite well in Audacity.

Sub et()
a440 = 440

'Equal Temperment 12 tone
Cells(1, 1) = a440

For i = 2 To 12
Cells(i, 1) = 2 ^ (i / 12) * 440
Next i

'Equal Temperment 31 tone

Cells(1, 3) = a440
For k = 2 To 31
Cells(k, 3) = 2 ^ (k / 31) * 440
Next k
End Sub



440             440
493.883303              460.1230246
523.2511306     470.5270664
554.3652658     481.1663586
587.3295318     492.0462204
622.2539674     503.1720915
659.2551047     514.5495345
698.4564725     526.1842378
739.9888454     538.0820184
783.9908612     550.248825
830.6094066     562.6907405
880             575.4139855
                588.4249214
                601.7300532
                615.3360332
                629.2496638
                643.4779149
                658.0278603
                672.9068284
                688.1222031
                703.6816481
                719.592885
                735.8639279
                752.5028517
                769.5180368
                786.9179276
                804.7112877
                822.9069476
                841.5140719
                860.5418948
                880

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 02:21:29 +0200, edgar-rft@... said:

> Hi paul,
>
> > Hello,
> > Equal temperment is sometimes considered poor because it does not align
> > very well with the major third. There are other schemes here:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
> >
> > In particular when the next semitone is the 22-nd root or 31-st root of
> > two then; the third and fifth come into good alignment.
> >
> > Is there a methodical way to implement this
>
> Edgar: depends on what you want to do.
>
> Nyquist 'hz-to-step' and 'step-to-hz' for computing tuning pitch out of
> MIDI
> values and vice versa are defined in 'nyquist.lsp' around line 600 ff.
>
> To make the pitch transformation environment work right in a non-linear
> tuning system is a more difficult task, because it depends on linear
> transformations. How would you e.g. implement a glissando in a non-linear
> environment? I have no idea.
>
> I first need to have a closer look at the math on the wiki page. There
> also is a chapter about alternative tuning systems in Rick Taube's Common
> Music (but with the conclusion that this will probably never work with
> computers if I remember right).
>
> Maybe Roger can help with more details.
>
> - edgar
>
>
>
>
> --
> The author of this email does not necessarily endorse the
> following advertisements, which are the sole responsibility
> of the advertiser:
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Schon gehört? Der neue WEB.DE MultiMessenger kann`s mit allen:
> http://www.produkte.web.de/messenger/?did=3016
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
> It's the best place to buy or sell services for
> just about anything Open Source.
> http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
> _______________________________________________
> Audacity-nyquist mailing list
> Audacity-nyquist@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-nyquist
--
  paul beach
  sniffyraven@...


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
It's the best place to buy or sell services for
just about anything Open Source.
http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
_______________________________________________
Audacity-nyquist mailing list
Audacity-nyquist@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-nyquist
edgar-rft
Re: different temperment
Reply Threaded More
Print post
Permalink
Paul Beach wrote:

> It is trivial to calculate Equal Temperment; see Excel modul below for
> the usual 12 tone as well as 31 tones. Non-linear is usually mentioned
> in the context of differential equations. The 12 tone scale is in every
> computer music scale, as I have done, and always unavailable for
> modification. If there is a reason to do a glide or glissado, frequency
> modulation works quite well in Audacity.
>
> Sub et()
> a440 = 440
>
> 'Equal Temperment 12 tone
> Cells(1, 1) = a440
>
> For i = 2 To 12
> Cells(i, 1) = 2 ^ (i / 12) * 440
> Next i
>
> 'Equal Temperment 31 tone
>
> Cells(1, 3) = a440
> For k = 2 To 31
> Cells(k, 3) = 2 ^ (k / 31) * 440
> Next k
> End Sub

Edgar writes:

If you only want to work with equal temperament, but a different numer of
semitones than 12, the implementation in Nyquist is quite easy. The only
point is that then it would probably not make much sense to work with
MIDI natation any longer. But since the Nyquist low-level interface works
in terms of physics (frequency in Hertz and time in seconds) it's not
neccessary to use MIDI notation at all.

If you have e.g. an a440 and want to compute the next higher semitone
in 31-TET, 2 ^ (1/31) *440, in Nyquist this would look like:

;; logarithmic math with Nyquist and XLISP:
;; n-th power of x: (exp (* (log x) n))
;; n-th root of x: (exp (/ (log x) n))

(setf new-hertz-value (exp (* (log 2.0) (/ 1.0 31.0))))

IMPORTANT: write 31.0, a Lisp FLONUM, because (/ 1 31) would be a FIXNUM
(integer) computation and result in a value of zero. It's sufficient if
ONE of both numbers is a FLONUM to get a FLONUM result.

A general 31-TET transformation function would look like:

(defun 31-tet (k)
  (* (exp (* (log 2.0) (/ k 31.0))) 440.0))

NOTE: You only need to exchange the "31.0" by another factor to get a
different TET scaling.

Because all Nyquist MIDI functions internally work with FLONUMS (the
MIDI "step" in Nyquist is just a word but not a real "step") you can
use the "31-tet" function like:

;; a sinewave, 4 31-TET semitones higer than a440
;;
(osc (hz-to-step (31-tet 4)))

;; a sinewave, 6 31-TET semitones lower than a440
;;
(osc (hz-to-step (31-tet -6)))

One step further, a 31-TET sine oscillator would look like this:

(defun 31-tet-osc (k)
  (osc (hz-to-step (31-tet k))))

The same way you can modify any Nyquist oscillator you like to a
different TET tuning scale. For oscillators which need Hertz values
just omit the "hz-to-step" transformation.

NOTE: How much the Nyquist pitch transformation environment works
with the TET functions is a different question (still not tested yet).

- edgar



--
The author of this email does not necessarily endorse the
following advertisements, which are the sole responsibility
of the advertiser:

_____________________________________________________________________
Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
http://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc=100071&distributionid=000000000066


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the new SourceForge.net Marketplace.
It's the best place to buy or sell services for
just about anything Open Source.
http://sourceforge.net/services/buy/index.php
_______________________________________________
Audacity-nyquist mailing list
Audacity-nyquist@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-nyquist