Nabble - debian-accessibility

Re: Accessibility Problem (was: Re: Preparing "bits from the accessibility team")

2008-09-02T05:15:36Z

Omer Zak, le Tue 02 Sep 2008 13:33:06 +0300, a écrit :

> On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 02:05 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Maybe it would be interesting to give the URL to the fosdem presentation
> > I made?
> >
> > "How accessible is Debian?"
> > http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2008/fosdem/
> > 30 minutes, yes, the first minute is blank
>
> The video (at least the OGG version, which I tried -
> http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2008/fosdem/ogg_theora/384x288/How_accessible_is_Debian___Samuel_Thibault.ogg) is not accessible to the deaf: no captions!

Indeed, any volunteer to type some?

Samuel

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Accessibility Problem (was: Re: Preparing "bits from the accessibility team")

2008-09-02T03:33:06Z

On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 02:05 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Maybe it would be interesting to give the URL to the fosdem presentation
> I made?
>
> "How accessible is Debian?"
> http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2008/fosdem/
> 30 minutes, yes, the first minute is blank

The video (at least the OGG version, which I tried -
http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2008/fosdem/ogg_theora/384x288/How_accessible_is_Debian___Samuel_Thibault.ogg) is not accessible to the deaf: no captions!

I looked over all subdirectories of
http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2008/fosdem/ and
found nothing with names, which suggest that they would be separate
caption files.

--- Omer
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Re: Preparing "bits from the accessibility team"

2008-09-02T02:52:21Z

Hi,

Samuel Thibault schrieb:

> Hello,
>
> Mario Lang, le Wed 27 Aug 2008 20:25:50 +0200, a écrit :
>> I'd like to try and increase our visibility in the project by
>> sending a "Bits from the accessibility team" to d-d-a.
>
> Good idea!
>
>> Does anyone have something they'd like to see mentioned in such a mail?
>
> Well, a few things that happened recently on the debian installer side
> was fixing up the dark theme and adding a beep at the syslinux boot
> prompt (it got commited, should be available in next official build).
> The new speakup and speakup-modules packages are also worth talking
> about. They have not been added to the debian installer yet, but scripts
> are already there, it's just about adding the kernel modules.

What are you thinking about setting up a wiki page in the debian-wiki
and collect information like these above there? This would improve the
visibility of this project too.

A wiki page have another important benefit: It can be kept up to date
more easily then a static web page. BTW who is maintaining the home page
of the debian accessibility project now?

We could
> also call for volunteers: simple things like adding an accessibility
> section to the debian installation manual would be very useful.
>
or just testing the accessibility features an giving feedback to this list.

Ritchi

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Re: Preparing "bits from the accessibility team"

2008-09-01T17:05:15Z

Mario Lang, le Sun 31 Aug 2008 12:11:52 +0200, a écrit :
> > Well, a few things that happened recently on the debian installer side
>
> Would you like to write this information up in a way
> that is comprehensible to people that might not be involved with
> accessibility already and drop it into my INBOX? :-)

Something like

Some work has been done on the debian-installer side: the "dark" theme
for colorblind people have been improved, a beep has been added to the
boot prompt to let non-sighted users know when boot option can be typed,
and support for hardware speech synthesizers (aka speakup) is on its
way.

?

> > We could also call for volunteers: simple things like adding an
> > accessibility section to the debian installation manual would be
> > very useful.
>
> I am not sure documentation writing is the right job
> for a newcomer... It might sound simple, but to do it
> properly actually requires an understanding of the field.

Yes and No. It's precisely when one doesn't know, that one realizes
what needs to be documented :)

Maybe it would be interesting to give the URL to the fosdem presentation
I made?

"How accessible is Debian?"
http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2008/fosdem/
30 minutes, yes, the first minute is blank

Samuel

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Re: Preparing "bits from the accessibility team"

2008-08-31T03:11:52Z

Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:

> Mario Lang, le Wed 27 Aug 2008 20:25:50 +0200, a écrit :
>> I'd like to try and increase our visibility in the project by
>> sending a "Bits from the accessibility team" to d-d-a.
>
> Good idea!
>
>> Does anyone have something they'd like to see mentioned in such a mail?
>
> Well, a few things that happened recently on the debian installer side
> was fixing up the dark theme and adding a beep at the syslinux boot
> prompt (it got commited, should be available in next official build).
> The new speakup and speakup-modules packages are also worth talking
> about. They have not been added to the debian installer yet, but scripts
> are already there, it's just about adding the kernel modules.

Would you like to write this information up in a way
that is comprehensible to people that might not be involved with
accessibility already and drop it into my INBOX? :-)

> We could also call for volunteers: simple things like adding an
> accessibility section to the debian installation manual would be
> very useful.

I am not sure documentation writing is the right job
for a newcomer... It might sound simple, but to do it
properly actually requires an understanding of the field.

But yeah, one of the major reasons for planning a "Bits from" mail is
to find new volunteers.

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Re: Preparing "bits from the accessibility team"

2008-08-27T16:20:39Z

Hello,

Mario Lang, le Wed 27 Aug 2008 20:25:50 +0200, a écrit :
> I'd like to try and increase our visibility in the project by
> sending a "Bits from the accessibility team" to d-d-a.

Good idea!

> Does anyone have something they'd like to see mentioned in such a mail?

Well, a few things that happened recently on the debian installer side
was fixing up the dark theme and adding a beep at the syslinux boot
prompt (it got commited, should be available in next official build).
The new speakup and speakup-modules packages are also worth talking
about. They have not been added to the debian installer yet, but scripts
are already there, it's just about adding the kernel modules. We could
also call for volunteers: simple things like adding an accessibility
section to the debian installation manual would be very useful.

Samuel

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Preparing "bits from the accessibility team"

2008-08-27T11:25:50Z

Hi.

I'd like to try and increase our visibility in the project by
sending a "Bits from the accessibility team" to d-d-a.

Does anyone have something they'd like to see mentioned in such a mail?
Samuel? Milan? Anyone else? If so, please let me know.

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Re: [PATCHv3] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-22T07:12:03Z

Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:

> Oh, I wasn't expecting to commit it myself, but why not. Yes, it is
> sthibaul-guest.

Please do the commit. Remember to add a note on the changelog about
your changes and please cite that this is going to be used just when
doing the release and that it can be disabled using the variable.

TIA

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Re: [PATCHv3] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-20T14:40:55Z

Otavio Salvador, le Wed 20 Aug 2008 15:40:09 -0300, a écrit :

> Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:
> > Samuel Thibault, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 01:39:31 +0100, a écrit :
> >> Frans Pop, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 02:05:45 +0200, a écrit :
> >> > Better to just use 0/1 as values and only test for '= 1' (or test for
> >> > set/unset, not sure what is more common).
> >>
> >> At least DEBUG uses y/n, so I have done the same in the attached fixed
> >> patch.
> >
> > ping?
>
> Hello Samuel,
>
> It looks OK for me. What is you alioth login? I think it is
> 'sthibaul-guest' but wanted to be sure before adding you on the
> project.
>
> Obviously, you should still send the patches for review on the mailing
> list before commiting them but it makes easier for you to be able to
> commit your changes.

Oh, I wasn't expecting to commit it myself, but why not. Yes, it is
sthibaul-guest.

Samuel

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Re: [PATCHv3] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-20T11:40:09Z

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:

> Samuel Thibault, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 01:39:31 +0100, a écrit :
>> Frans Pop, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 02:05:45 +0200, a écrit :
>> > Better to just use 0/1 as values and only test for '= 1' (or test for
>> > set/unset, not sure what is more common).
>>
>> At least DEBUG uses y/n, so I have done the same in the attached fixed
>> patch.
>
> ping?

Hello Samuel,

It looks OK for me. What is you alioth login? I think it is
'sthibaul-guest' but wanted to be sure before adding you on the
project.

Obviously, you should still send the patches for review on the mailing
list before commiting them but it makes easier for you to be able to
commit your changes.

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Re: [Fwd: Braille music transcription using MusicXml]

2008-08-17T13:14:29Z

Hi Mario,

I was away for two weeks and I just returned ;-)

Firstly, thanks for your answer!

I think java isn't not a big problem, because the core of the
transcription part works with xsl transformations.
A student of me is working during holidays to improve the music part of
NAT. So my proposal is to let him finish is work, then I 'll put English
translation to make the code more readable for no French speakers (I
know it could be a big problem, but at first I only wanted to perform
French Braille translations... But the case of music is universal ;-)).

I had a look at your software which works fine with what it is able to
do. We could begin with simple share of point of view/ experience, it
seems to be a good first step.

Maybe the rest of the list isn't interested with too much technical
details? Should we continue here or in private conversations?

Best regards,
Bruno

PS: I 'll released nat as a debian package at the end of october, with a
strong support of French mathematics and French grade 1; the music part
should be a first contribution but not a fully functional one...

Mario Lang wrote:

> HI Bruno.
>
> First of all, sorry that my answer took me so long,
> but I was away for a month of vacation on Jamaica.
>
> Bruno Mascret <bmascret@...> writes:
>
>> Hi all (and especially Mario),
>>
>> Looking at some project on the net we found freedots, and I was happy
>> to see that Mario is taking part in this project.
>
> Actually, FreeDots was started by myself and for now, I am
> the only developer...
>
>> A few weeks ago I wrote a mail about Nat braille
>> (http://natbraille.free.fr, sources at https://svn.liris.cnrs.fr/nat).
>> We already began implementing xslt transformations to produce braille
>> from musicXml.
>> I wonder if we could share our work, or working together in braille
>> music transcription.
>
> Thats a very good idea. I didn't know about nat.
> A quick look at your sources has two discouraging points for
> me personally though: I dislike Java, and your usage of french words
> in programming code makes it hard for me to understand, since I dont speak
> french.
>
> FreeDots is written in pure Python. It can already transcribe
> MusicXML to braille music (many things are missing, but its
> already very useful to myself), has a GUI for navigating the
> resulting Braille on Linux, and even includes useful things
> like playback of the whole file, or individual braille music
> symbols via the editing window. A recent rewrite of the
> musicxml backend module now allows me to even do edits
> of musicxml files and save them back out to disk, which will be
> useful when fixing errors in MusicXML comming from
> optical music recognition programs.
>
>> Are you using the same kind of technologies?
> Yes, MusicXML and braille music.
> But I wont touch Java with a ten food pole :-)
>
> I am very happy to cooperate, especially since the topic of
> transcribing braille music is pretty complicated and maybe too
> much for a single person to handle fully in a reasonable time-frame.
>

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Re: [PATCHv2] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-12T17:20:01Z

Samuel Thibault, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 00:54:15 +0100, a écrit :

> Per Andersson, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 01:31:37 +0200, a écrit :
> > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Frans Pop <elendil@...> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > >> Here is an corrected patch
> > >
> > > Looks fine to me.
> >
> > Shouldn't there be a left bracket after the &&?
> > (It's missing in several places.)
> >
> > if [ $$outfile == menu.cfg ] && $$MENU_BEEP ]; then
>
> EPARSE :)

Oops, man read for me, sorry, that's a typo indeed.

Samuel

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Re: [PATCHv2] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-12T17:05:45Z

On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Per Andersson wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Frans Pop <elendil@...> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> >> Here is an corrected patch
> >
> > Looks fine to me.
>
> Shouldn't there be a left bracket after the &&?
> (It's missing in several places.)
>
> if [ $$outfile == menu.cfg ] && $$MENU_BEEP ]; then

Looks like a mix between wanting to execute $$MENU_BEEP (as true/false)
and testing for a value.

Please do NOT try to execute it. Better to just use 0/1 as values and only
test for '= 1' (or test for set/unset, not sure what is more common).

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Re: [PATCHv2] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-12T16:54:15Z

Per Andersson, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 01:31:37 +0200, a écrit :

EPARSE :)

MENU_BEEP holds true or false, which doesn't need a [ ].

Samuel

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Re: [PATCHv2] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-12T16:31:37Z

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 12:51 AM, Frans Pop <elendil@...> wrote:
> On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> Here is an corrected patch
>
> Looks fine to me.

Shouldn't there be a left bracket after the &&?
(It's missing in several places.)

if [ $$outfile == menu.cfg ] && $$MENU_BEEP ]; then

-- Per

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Re: [PATCHv2] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-12T16:06:54Z

Frans Pop, le Wed 13 Aug 2008 00:51:29 +0200, a écrit :
> On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Here is an corrected patch
>
> Looks fine to me.
>
> Only wonder if it would not make more sense to rename the variable to
> BOOT_BEEP or BEEP_ON_BOOT or SYSLINUX_BEEP. MENU could easily be confused
> with the D-I main menu.

BOOTMENU_BEEP?

BOOT_BEEP alone would make me think that it's just beeping during boot,
not at the menu.

(SYSLINUX is probably not generic enough)

Samuel

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Re: [PATCHv2] Make syslinux beep

2008-08-12T15:51:29Z

On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Here is an corrected patch

Looks fine to me.

Only wonder if it would not make more sense to rename the variable to
BOOT_BEEP or BEEP_ON_BOOT or SYSLINUX_BEEP. MENU could easily be confused
with the D-I main menu.

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-12T12:31:10Z

On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Frans Pop, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 10:29:23 +0200, a écrit :
> > On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > > Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of
> > > build, I just made it look at the udebs source.
> >
> > I don't think it's smart to use USE_UDEBS_FROM here. Better use a
> > dedicated variable.
>
> So add a new one, just for the beeps or some RELEASE_BUILD=true/false?

Something just for the beeps. Someone should be able to turn this specific
feature on/off for a particular build. It also means that config/common
should only set a default if not already set. Of course the option also
needs to be documented in build/README.

> > Also, please use '[ <test> ] && [ <test> ]' instead of '[ <test> -a
> > <test> ]'.
>
> I'm curious: why?

Readability; general D-I coding style preference; bashism.
Take your pick :-)

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-12T11:12:25Z

On Tue, Aug 12, Samuel Thibault wrote:
Snip.
> > Also, please use '[ <test> ] && [ <test> ]' instead of '[ <test> -a
> > <test> ]'.
>
> I'm curious: why?

To bash specific. Have a look at the dash man page.

--Frank

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-12T11:09:20Z

Otavio Salvador <otavio@...> writes:

> From my POV it looks good. Let's wait few days to see if someone nack
> it or something, otherwise I'll commit it in the end of week.

Samuel,

Please address both points spoted by Frans and resubmit it.

Thanks a lot.

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-12T11:01:47Z

Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:

>> Also, please use '[ <test> ] && [ <test> ]' instead of '[ <test> -a
>> <test> ]'.
>
> I'm curious: why?

Coding Style.

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-12T10:58:22Z

Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:

> Otavio Salvador, le Mon 11 Aug 2008 22:06:50 -0300, a écrit :
>> Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:
>>
>> > Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit :
>> >> Still no feedback on this?
>> >
>> > (I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility,
>> > the feature was greatly appreciated).
>>
>> It would be acceptable for release images. Could to work on a patch to
>> only make it when we're doing a release? (no dailies or local builds)
>
> Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of build, I
> just made it look at the udebs source.

I think this is a good way of detection since debian/rules set it in
case we're doing a daily build.

>From my POV it looks good. Let's wait few days to see if someone nack
it or something, otherwise I'll commit it in the end of week.

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-12T02:33:03Z

Frans Pop, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 10:29:23 +0200, a écrit :
> On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of build,
> > I just made it look at the udebs source.
>
> I don't think it's smart to use USE_UDEBS_FROM here. Better use a
> dedicated variable.

So add a new one, just for the beeps or some RELEASE_BUILD=true/false?

> Also, please use '[ <test> ] && [ <test> ]' instead of '[ <test> -a
> <test> ]'.

I'm curious: why?

Samuel

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-12T01:29:23Z

On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Here is a patch. I didn't know how I should detect the kind of build,
> I just made it look at the udebs source.

I don't think it's smart to use USE_UDEBS_FROM here. Better use a
dedicated variable. Also, please use '[ <test> ] && [ <test> ]' instead
of '[ <test> -a <test> ]'.

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-11T18:06:50Z

Samuel Thibault <samuel.thibault@...> writes:

> Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit :
>> Still no feedback on this?
>
> (I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility,
> the feature was greatly appreciated).

It would be acceptable for release images. Could to work on a patch to
only make it when we're doing a release? (no dailies or local builds)

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Bug#494764: ITP: cl-clg -- Common Lisp bindings to GTK+ v2.x

2008-08-11T16:48:48Z

Package: wnpp
Owner: Mario Lang <mlang@...>
Severity: wishlist

* Package name : cl-clg
Version : 0.9.4~20080506
Upstream Author : Espen S. Johnsen <espen@...>
* URL or Web page : http://sourceforge.net/projects/clg/
* License : MIT
Description : Common Lisp bindings to GTK+ v2.x

CLG is one binding to GTK+ for Common Lisp that works nicely and
seems to be actively maintained upstream. The bindings are
pretty lispy. CLOS is used as a wrapper around the various GTK classes,
so (make-instance 'window ...) is used to create a GTK window and so on.

My personal motivation to package this is that CL on Debian is
currently lacking an accessible GUI framework. McCLIM does most
of its drawing stuff directly and has no at-spi support, therefore
McCLIM GUIs are not accessible currently.

By using a GTK+ binding, we get accessibility for free since GTK+
already implements it for all standard widgets.

I am going to package a cvs snapshot because recent changes in
cvs bring back working SBCL support.

--
CYa,
⡍⠁⠗⠊⠕ | Debian Developer <URL:http://debian.org/>
.''`. | Get my public key via finger mlang/key@...
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`- <URL:http://delysid.org/> <URL:http://www.staff.tugraz.at/mlang/>

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-11T16:10:58Z

Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit :
> Still no feedback on this?

(I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility,
the feature was greatly appreciated).

Samuel

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Re: Make syslinux beep?

2008-08-11T16:10:26Z

Hello,

Still no feedback on this?

Samuel Thibault, le Sun 20 Jul 2008 15:47:18 +0100, a écrit :

> Otavio Salvador, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:33:36 -0300, a écrit :
> > Frans Pop <elendil@...> writes:
> > > On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > >> I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about
> > >> installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't
> > >> complain if it could help others.
> > >
> > > It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations
> > > and even more boots of the installer during development.
> >
> > For development we could put a variable to disable it, and it wouldn't
> > hurt since it would help blind people a lot.
> >
> > I share the Samuel feeling that it would be good. Samuel could
> > provide an image for us to test and see how bad it would be.
>
> Ok, it wasn't "just" putting a ^G in the menu, because syslinux doesn't
> have beep support in graphical mode...
>
> Anyway, I've put an image on
> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-beep.iso

Samuel

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Re: [Fwd: Braille music transcription using MusicXml]

2008-08-11T06:54:18Z

HI Bruno.

First of all, sorry that my answer took me so long,
but I was away for a month of vacation on Jamaica.

Bruno Mascret <bmascret@...> writes:

> Hi all (and especially Mario),
>
> Looking at some project on the net we found freedots, and I was happy
> to see that Mario is taking part in this project.

Actually, FreeDots was started by myself and for now, I am
the only developer...

> A few weeks ago I wrote a mail about Nat braille
> (http://natbraille.free.fr, sources at https://svn.liris.cnrs.fr/nat).
> We already began implementing xslt transformations to produce braille
> from musicXml.
> I wonder if we could share our work, or working together in braille
> music transcription.

Thats a very good idea. I didn't know about nat.
A quick look at your sources has two discouraging points for
me personally though: I dislike Java, and your usage of french words
in programming code makes it hard for me to understand, since I dont speak
french.

FreeDots is written in pure Python. It can already transcribe
MusicXML to braille music (many things are missing, but its
already very useful to myself), has a GUI for navigating the
resulting Braille on Linux, and even includes useful things
like playback of the whole file, or individual braille music
symbols via the editing window. A recent rewrite of the
musicxml backend module now allows me to even do edits
of musicxml files and save them back out to disk, which will be
useful when fixing errors in MusicXML comming from
optical music recognition programs.

> Are you using the same kind of technologies?
Yes, MusicXML and braille music.
But I wont touch Java with a ten food pole :-)

I am very happy to cooperate, especially since the topic of
transcribing braille music is pretty complicated and maybe too
much for a single person to handle fully in a reasonable time-frame.

--
CYa,
⡍⠁⠗⠊⠕ | Debian Developer <URL:http://debian.org/>
.''`. | Get my public key via finger mlang/key@...
: :' : | 1024D/7FC1A0854909BCCDBE6C102DDFFC022A6B113E44
`. `'
`- <URL:http://delysid.org/> <URL:http://www.staff.tugraz.at/mlang/>

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Re: speechd-up debian package

2008-08-06T11:27:04Z

John Heim, le Wed 06 Aug 2008 12:28:49 -0500, a écrit :
> This will be my first official debian package so I'm not
> claiming to be the most qualified to take this on.

"qualification" is not so important, "having the time and motivation" is
:)

Thanks for taking that package,
Samuel

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speechd-up debian package

2008-08-06T10:28:49Z

All,

Unless someone objects, I'm going to start working on an official debian
package for speechd-up. I kinda sorta have one already but it's not up to
debian standards. This will be my first official debian package so I'm not
claiming to be the most qualified to take this on. But I am willing.

--
John Heim
jheim@... / 608-263-4189
"An operator of a vehicle shall stop the vehicle before approaching closer
than 10 feet to a pedestrian who is using a service animal"
-- Wisconsin Statute 2005 Act 354,

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