another electric airplane first flight

[Peter VanDerWal]

> Run time.  16 hp motor is (assuming 100% efficiency) 746*16 = 12kw.  The
> largest battery pack ($7500) is 5.6kwh.  I see a little less than half an
> hour
> run time at 100% efficiency.   He says the motor is 90% efficient and the
> Alltrax Axe controller I see in the photo is similarly efficient so the
> overall efficiency is 81%.  Using that value, the run time reduces to 0.37
> hours or about 20 minutes. (Yeah, I see his 1 to 1.5 hour flight duration
> claims but like most EV range claims, I take that with a large grain of
> salt.)

You're assuming the motor has to run at 100% power at all times, this is
not the case.
I would guess that most cruising is done at 50% power or less.

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[gary k]

  Re-engined Electric-Powered Moni Makes First Flight

Sat, 17 May '08


    Little Noise, No Pollution... And No High Gas Prices!

At AirVenture 2007, Randall Fishman took a coveted Grand Champion
'Lindy' and Ultralight Innovation awards for his rechargeable, battery
powered ultralight. A stack of rechargeable lithium batteries, a
hand-wound motor and clever packaging powered Randall around the patch
at Oshkosh to cop small aviation's most prestigious prize for technical
elegance.

Fast forward six months. Fishman showed up at January's Sport Aviation
Expo in Sebring, FL with a more practical aircraft. He adapted his motor
and battery package to fit into a 1980's vintage Moni motorglider, with
electrical power replacing the Moni's noisy, fume-belching two-stroke
engine.

On Wednesday, May 14, the re-powered Moni rose into the air for the
first time. Since Fishman is a hang glider guy -- and never got a
license to fly a 'real' airplane -- first flight chores were left to
veteran glider instructor, Joe Bennis.

Fishman tells ANN the aircraft lifted gently into the air into a light
breeze that blew straight down the runway. From the start, one thing
seemed odd -- the aircraft was virtually silent. A purring sound
emanated from the propeller, but there was no nasty engine bark to call
attention to the little craft.

Two laps around the pattern, and the deal was sealed. The little white
bird climbed out smartly and flew without any surprises. That's the very
best thing that can happen on a first flight.

More details will be forthcoming when Fishamn has had enough instruction
to solo as a student pilot. However, he notes, some things are already
known. The battery and motor combination generate 60% more thrust than
the "wretched little two-stroke" they replace.

Aside from utility smokestack pollution, the aircraft puts no new toxins
into the air. There is no change in the Moni's weight and balance with
the electric motor package.

Fishman says battery operation will permit over an hour of powered
flight. With the switch turned off, the aircraft can soar thermals and
ridges as it was designed... and when lift is strong enough, or when a
bit of aerobraking is needed to lose altitude, the propeller can
generate power on the way down to charge the batteries.

The inventor also notes density altitude will never affect motor
performance... nor will high prices at the gas pumps.


            FMI: www.electraflyer.com <http://www.electraflyer.com>, See
            More Of The Electric-Powered Moni!
            <http://picasaweb.google.com/barowicz/FLYINGFFreeElectron>

http://www.electraflyer.com/
http://picasaweb.google.com/barowicz/FLYINGFFreeElectron

--
Gary Krysztopik
www.ZWheelz.com
San Antonio, TX

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[Bob Rice-2]

   Hi Gary;

   What a heartewarming story! Cute little plane! Wonder if it could lift my
fat, 300 lb ass?I think they are for 150 lb guyz? But after all the Wright
bros first one was "Experimental" too? I could see sport aircraft a tad
bigger. Funny the guy had to go get a pilot's license to drive(fly) it<g>!He
probably only built it. Looks easy enough to fly, though; Just stay above
stall speed, ride thermals and "Regen" with the prop to come down? Maybe Jet
Blue could convert a few jets<g>?ELECTRIC BLUE Airways. That would look
good, on the planes? My , sure would be nice to have this guy fly into P of
DC, LAND on a cleared, (PLEASE!) strip for show an' tell.

   Some day a EADL; Electric Aviator Diss-cussion List, Hy Torque flying
motors, keeping Jim's biz flying along? 0-to 60 in less than 4 seconds would
be nice in an airplane! Tow them aloft with Killacycle<g>?We'll have a whole
new facet of EV dom?Killacycles drive train would power a hellova stunt
plane? No?NEDRA could havce a whole new Aviation Records, too?No buzzing
clueless pedestrians, though.We'll still sneak up on 'em with our terestial
stuff!

    Flights of Fancy.

    Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "gary" <gkrysztopik@...>
To: <ev@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:04 AM
Subject: [EVDL] another electric airplane first flight

>
>  Re-engined Electric-Powered Moni Makes First Flight
>
> Sat, 17 May '08
>
>
>    Little Noise, No Pollution... And No High Gas Prices!
>
> At AirVenture 2007, Randall Fishman took a coveted Grand Champion
> 'Lindy' and Ultralight Innovation awards for his rechargeable, battery
> powered ultralight. A stack of rechargeable lithium batteries, a
> hand-wound motor and clever packaging powered Randall around the patch
> at Oshkosh to cop small aviation's most prestigious prize for technical
> elegance.
>
> Fast forward six months. Fishman showed up at January's Sport Aviation
> Expo in Sebring, FL with a more practical aircraft. He adapted his motor
> and battery package to fit into a 1980's vintage Moni motorglider, with
> electrical power replacing the Moni's noisy, fume-belching two-stroke
> engine.
>
> On Wednesday, May 14, the re-powered Moni rose into the air for the
> first time. Since Fishman is a hang glider guy -- and never got a
> license to fly a 'real' airplane -- first flight chores were left to
> veteran glider instructor, Joe Bennis.
>
> Fishman tells ANN the aircraft lifted gently into the air into a light
> breeze that blew straight down the runway. From the start, one thing
> seemed odd -- the aircraft was virtually silent. A purring sound
> emanated from the propeller, but there was no nasty engine bark to call
> attention to the little craft.
>
> Two laps around the pattern, and the deal was sealed. The little white
> bird climbed out smartly and flew without any surprises. That's the very
> best thing that can happen on a first flight.
>
> More details will be forthcoming when Fishamn has had enough instruction
> to solo as a student pilot. However, he notes, some things are already
> known. The battery and motor combination generate 60% more thrust than
> the "wretched little two-stroke" they replace.
>
> Aside from utility smokestack pollution, the aircraft puts no new toxins
> into the air. There is no change in the Moni's weight and balance with
> the electric motor package.
>
> Fishman says battery operation will permit over an hour of powered
> flight. With the switch turned off, the aircraft can soar thermals and
> ridges as it was designed... and when lift is strong enough, or when a
> bit of aerobraking is needed to lose altitude, the propeller can
> generate power on the way down to charge the batteries.
>
> The inventor also notes density altitude will never affect motor
> performance... nor will high prices at the gas pumps.
>
>
>            FMI: www.electraflyer.com <http://www.electraflyer.com>, See
>            More Of The Electric-Powered Moni!
>            <http://picasaweb.google.com/barowicz/FLYINGFFreeElectron>
>
> http://www.electraflyer.com/
> http://picasaweb.google.com/barowicz/FLYINGFFreeElectron
>
> --
> Gary Krysztopik
> www.ZWheelz.com
> San Antonio, TX
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev 

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[Neon John]

On Sat, 17 May 2008 08:04:21 -0500, gary <gkrysztopik@...> wrote:


>The inventor also notes density altitude will never affect motor
>performance... nor will high prices at the gas pumps.

Ya gotta love that.

http://www.electraflyer.com/prices.html

$16,885.00 for the turnkey plane.  That's about twice the price of a gas
powered one.  Add $3000 more for the long run time battery pack.  I can buy a
LOT of gas for almost $6500.

Let's do some figuring.

Run time.  16 hp motor is (assuming 100% efficiency) 746*16 = 12kw.  The
largest battery pack ($7500) is 5.6kwh.  I see a little less than half an hour
run time at 100% efficiency.   He says the motor is 90% efficient and the
Alltrax Axe controller I see in the photo is similarly efficient so the
overall efficiency is 81%.  Using that value, the run time reduces to 0.37
hours or about 20 minutes. (Yeah, I see his 1 to 1.5 hour flight duration
claims but like most EV range claims, I take that with a large grain of salt.)

Strangely enough, he doesn't list a recharge time or the amperage capacity of
the $895 charger, though for the price we can assume that it's a fairly high
capacity unit.  He does say that it can charge from an ordinary 120 volt
outlet so we can do some figuring.  

Assume it's large enough to fully load a 15 amp branch.  15 amps at 120 volts
is 1.8kW.  Accounting for a bit of loss from efficiency, let's say 1.6kw. The
biggest pack listed is 5.6kw.  5.6/1.6 = 3.5 hours assuming 100% charge
efficiency.  At 90% charge efficiency, that stretches out to 3.9 hours.  Call
it 4.

To summarize, for the price of a fairly nice car, I can fly around 20 minutes
out of approximately every 5 hours, assuming I have some source of electricity
handy.  At a flying field, that's probably a "smelly ole generator spewing
fumes everywhere" (did I get that verbiage correct?)  Or I suppose that I
could drop the down payment on a nice house on a second battery pack and get
almost 40 minutes of flying time between charges.

Given that I can fly longer than I have the physical endurance for on 5
gallons of gasoline, why is my enthusiator not perking up?  Looks line just
another media stunt/rich man's toy to me.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Give Blood.  8 Billion Mosquitoes can't be wrong.

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[Jamie K]

I'm really glad to see electric powered flying options in development,
especially those like this one actually becoming available.

It's not for everyone. But for anyone who wants to enjoy the thrill of
self-launched gliding without the complexity, maintenance, noise, gas
and exhaust of a combustion engine, this is a welcome option. Launch
with the electric motor and ride the thermals for a while. Whenever you
need a boost, use the motor again.

As far as the cost goes, the first of anything costs more. Prices come
down over time. It's already affordable enough and capable enough to
release to the early adopter market. The cost of operation is likely
very low. And it appears to be simple and upgradeable, so if you want
more electric time later you can take advantage of better and cheaper
batteries in the future.

Sure it can be criticized, but he created something cool with electrons
using and refining what's available now. An impressive first product.
Something worth celebrating, and another great step along the way. IMHO.

This list being what it is, maybe his glider will inspire some amazing
homebrew projects. If so, I'd love to read about them here (an electric
glider is an "EV" right?).

Cheers,
  -Jamie
  www.JamieKrutz.com


Neon John wrote:

> On Sat, 17 May 2008 08:04:21 -0500, gary <gkrysztopik@...> wrote:
>
>
>> The inventor also notes density altitude will never affect motor
>> performance... nor will high prices at the gas pumps.
>
> Ya gotta love that.
>
> http://www.electraflyer.com/prices.html
>
> $16,885.00 for the turnkey plane.  That's about twice the price of a gas
> powered one.  Add $3000 more for the long run time battery pack.  I can buy a
> LOT of gas for almost $6500.
>
> Let's do some figuring.
>
> Run time.  16 hp motor is (assuming 100% efficiency) 746*16 = 12kw.  The
> largest battery pack ($7500) is 5.6kwh.  I see a little less than half an hour
> run time at 100% efficiency.   He says the motor is 90% efficient and the
> Alltrax Axe controller I see in the photo is similarly efficient so the
> overall efficiency is 81%.  Using that value, the run time reduces to 0.37
> hours or about 20 minutes. (Yeah, I see his 1 to 1.5 hour flight duration
> claims but like most EV range claims, I take that with a large grain of salt.)
>
> Strangely enough, he doesn't list a recharge time or the amperage capacity of
> the $895 charger, though for the price we can assume that it's a fairly high
> capacity unit.  He does say that it can charge from an ordinary 120 volt
> outlet so we can do some figuring.  
>
> Assume it's large enough to fully load a 15 amp branch.  15 amps at 120 volts
> is 1.8kW.  Accounting for a bit of loss from efficiency, let's say 1.6kw. The
> biggest pack listed is 5.6kw.  5.6/1.6 = 3.5 hours assuming 100% charge
> efficiency.  At 90% charge efficiency, that stretches out to 3.9 hours.  Call
> it 4.
>
> To summarize, for the price of a fairly nice car, I can fly around 20 minutes
> out of approximately every 5 hours, assuming I have some source of electricity
> handy.  At a flying field, that's probably a "smelly ole generator spewing
> fumes everywhere" (did I get that verbiage correct?)  Or I suppose that I
> could drop the down payment on a nice house on a second battery pack and get
> almost 40 minutes of flying time between charges.
>
> Given that I can fly longer than I have the physical endurance for on 5
> gallons of gasoline, why is my enthusiator not perking up?  Looks line just
> another media stunt/rich man's toy to me.
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Give Blood.  8 Billion Mosquitoes can't be wrong.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[gary k]

>
> Given that I can fly longer than I have the physical endurance for on 5
> gallons of gasoline, why is my enthusiator not perking up?  Looks line just
> another media stunt/rich man's toy to me.
>
>  
Looks like the start of a new direction to me.  I give him credit for
doing it, we all have to start somewhere.  Compare this to the first
powered flight - the Wright brothers.  Oh boy, 20' in the air for a few
hundred feet.  What good is that?  Seems like a big waste of time.  I'm
sure that's what a lot of people said back then.

What about noise?  I bet there are more than a few people that are
restricted because of noise - same thing with dirt bikes.  We got kicked
out of everywhere because of noise.  I would've paid top dollar for an
electric dirt bike when I had nowhere left to ride, even if it had half
the power and was only good for 20 minutes.  There was a big court case
where people were suing an aerobatics club in MA because of noise
pollution and probably more cases like that against ultralights.

I see these electric planes as the first step for the first generation.  
A new direction, not a mature end product.  I'm glad somebody is
trying.  Prices will come down and performance will go up.  A soaring
trike and motorglider are great places to start.  I don't think he did
it with intentions to sell anyway, that only came after many requests
when people saw the trike.

gary

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[Peter Shabino]

In my ongoing motor saga I found out the seller also had a used controler a Auburn Scientific "grizzly" PWC1200-192. Anyone have any experiences with these?
 
Also what would be a similar class Curtis controller? (Again just verifying the price is fair)
 
Thanks,
Peter
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[gottdi]

Peter,

I sent an email to the guy about the GE motor.

Pete



On May 17, 2008, at 9:30 AM, Peter Shabino wrote:

> In my ongoing motor saga I found out the seller also had a used  
> controler a Auburn Scientific "grizzly" PWC1200-192. Anyone have any  
> experiences with these?
>
> Also what would be a similar class Curtis controller? (Again just  
> verifying the price is fair)
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
> _________________________________________________________________
> Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
> http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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[Zeke Yewdall]

On Sat, May 17, 2008 at 10:04 AM, gary <gkrysztopik@...> wrote:

>
>
> What about noise?  I bet there are more than a few people that are
> restricted because of noise - same thing with dirt bikes.  We got kicked
> out of everywhere because of noise.  I would've paid top dollar for an
> electric dirt bike when I had nowhere left to ride, even if it had half
> the power and was only good for 20 minutes.  There was a big court case
> where people were suing an aerobatics club in MA because of noise
> pollution and probably more cases like that against ultralights.
>

The noise is a big big issue for dirt bikes and ATV's and such. One guy on
an ATV or snowmobile destroys the wilderness for miles around them for
everyone else trying to enjoy it.  That's one of the biggest reasons I
support banning them from the national forests and such.  If they were
silent... I wouldn't really mind them all that much.  Yes, there's the air
pollution too... but that's more of a slow effect that can be ignored for a
while rather than causing immediate infuriation like the noise.

Z
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[Doug Weathers]

On May 17, 2008, at 10:30 AM, Peter Shabino wrote:

> In my ongoing motor saga I found out the seller also had a used  
> controler a Auburn Scientific "grizzly" PWC1200-192. Anyone have any  
> experiences with these?

You can check the EV Album for EVs that use this controller.

Here's some info on it:

<http://www.evalbum.com/auburn>

--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://www.gdunge.com/>

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[Neon John]

On Sat, 17 May 2008 03:29:38 -0600 (MDT), "Peter VanDerWal"
<evdl@...> wrote:

>> Run time.  16 hp motor is (assuming 100% efficiency) 746*16 = 12kw.  The
>> largest battery pack ($7500) is 5.6kwh.  I see a little less than half an
>> hour
>> run time at 100% efficiency.   He says the motor is 90% efficient and the
>> Alltrax Axe controller I see in the photo is similarly efficient so the
>> overall efficiency is 81%.  Using that value, the run time reduces to 0.37
>> hours or about 20 minutes. (Yeah, I see his 1 to 1.5 hour flight duration
>> claims but like most EV range claims, I take that with a large grain of
>> salt.)
>
>You're assuming the motor has to run at 100% power at all times, this is
>not the case.
>I would guess that most cruising is done at 50% power or less.

That would be a lot different than the gas powered one a friend has that I've
flown a few times.  With really good thermals, yeah, cruising on part (or no)
throttle is possible.  Not many folks would claim whatever run time that works
out to as typical.  But even if he can cruise at 50% power, that's only about
40 minutes.  Doesn't seem like too much fun return on investment to me.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Why the US is losing its competitivve edge:"It used to be that the USA was pretty good at
producing stuff teenaged boys could lose a finger or two playing with."-James Niccol

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[Neon John]

On Sat, 17 May 2008 11:04:36 -0500, gary <gkrysztopik@...> wrote:

>
>>
>> Given that I can fly longer than I have the physical endurance for on 5
>> gallons of gasoline, why is my enthusiator not perking up?  Looks line just
>> another media stunt/rich man's toy to me.
>>
>>  
>Looks like the start of a new direction to me.  I give him credit for
>doing it, we all have to start somewhere.  Compare this to the first
>powered flight - the Wright brothers.  Oh boy, 20' in the air for a few
>hundred feet.  What good is that?  Seems like a big waste of time.  I'm
>sure that's what a lot of people said back then.

But then, the Wright Brothers didn't immediately market that first plane.

>
>What about noise?  I bet there are more than a few people that are
>restricted because of noise - same thing with dirt bikes.  We got kicked
>out of everywhere because of noise.  I would've paid top dollar for an
>electric dirt bike when I had nowhere left to ride, even if it had half
>the power and was only good for 20 minutes.  There was a big court case
>where people were suing an aerobatics club in MA because of noise
>pollution and probably more cases like that against ultralights.

If one leaves the muffler alone, most of the noise from a gas powered
ultralight comes from the propeller.  The engine emits but a gentle hum.  At
least that's the way it is with the one I occasionally fly.

Substituting an electric motor for the gas one won't change any of that.  Note
that he sells (for a lot more money) a low RPM, long throw prop assembly.  He
says that it's more efficient but I bet that it's also quieter, just like belt
driven, low speed props are quieter with gas engined ultralites.

>
>I see these electric planes as the first step for the first generation.  
>A new direction, not a mature end product.  I'm glad somebody is
>trying.  Prices will come down and performance will go up.  A soaring
>trike and motorglider are great places to start.  I don't think he did
>it with intentions to sell anyway, that only came after many requests
>when people saw the trike.

First and foremost, though, it's gotta work.  Electric RCs have gotten so
popular because they DO work, sometimes better than the gas version, and at
comparable prices.  I'm developing a serious interest in RC planes, especially
after going out a few times with a friend and his electrics.  My first
purchase will be electric.

It's going to be awhile before batteries get cheap enough, if they ever do, to
make an electric ultralight anywhere near competitive with gas powered ones.

 And, of course just speculating now, I bet the maintenance on the electric
version will be higher than with a gas engine.  I would not have chosen a
Lynch motor for that because of relatively short brush life.  Then there's the
matter of having to lug the batteries back to the charging point (assuming
there isn't power at the strip.)  

With the gas version, one simply turns off the fuel and runs the carb dry.  If
it won't be flown for some time, drain the tank.  A new set of spark plugs
every season or two. That's about it.

I'd not be very critical had this guy actually done something innovative.
Like, say, a BLDC motor and controller optimized for flying.  Bolting on an
off the shelf Lynch motor and Alltrax controller along with some very
expensive batteries is NOT innovation to me.  Heck, he could have scaled up
the very innovative RC plane motors and done better than this.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Vegetarian - Indian word for "poor hunter".

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[jondrums]

> I'd not be very critical had this guy actually done something innovative.
> Like, say, a BLDC motor and controller optimized for flying.  Bolting on
> an
> off the shelf Lynch motor and Alltrax controller along with some very
> expensive batteries is NOT innovation to me.  Heck, he could have scaled
> up
> the very innovative RC plane motors and done better than this.

you hit the nail on the head here!  this application screams for a high
power to weight ratio and that one is obvious - a permanent magnet BLDC.  I
don't mind using expensive batteries - that's a given for weight critical
applicaiton.  I call lame on this project as far as innovation is
concerned - but then again, nice try, and keep at it - things can only get
better.
Jon

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