amd64 kernel + 32-bit userland: compiling a new amd64 kernel

[Dieter Rohlfing]

Hello everybody,

when I got my new Dell Latitude D830 (1 GB RAM, Intel Core 2 Duo T7250) a few
months ago, I installed the 32-bit version of Debian-Lenny (kernel and userland
i386-architecture).

A few weeks ago I upgraded the laptop with 3 GB RAM, so now it has a total of 4
GB RAM. Under the i386 kernel the command free shows about 3.5 GB available
memory, so I lost about 0.5 GB RAM due to the i386 architecture.

Therefore I installed the amd64 kernel, which is part of the i386 distribution.
Now free shows 4048 MB available memory. So, now I have a completely i386
userland and an amd64 kernel.

In order to build a customized new amd64 kernel I guess, I'll need some 64-bit
libraries for the building process, because as I said: my system is (with the
exception of the kernel) completey i386, that is it has only 32-bit libraries.
Now my questions:

Is it possible, to build an amd64 kernel inside an i386 system (with 32-bit
libraries)? If yes, what additional packages do I have to install? Are they
available inside the i386 distribution or do I have to download those from the
amd64 distribution?

I appreciate all hints and replies.

Dieter


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[Hendrik Boom-2]

On Wed, Jul 02, 2008 at 04:43:04PM +0200, Dieter Rohlfing wrote:

> Hello everybody,
>
> when I got my new Dell Latitude D830 (1 GB RAM, Intel Core 2 Duo T7250) a few
> months ago, I installed the 32-bit version of Debian-Lenny (kernel and userland
> i386-architecture).
>
> A few weeks ago I upgraded the laptop with 3 GB RAM, so now it has a total of 4
> GB RAM. Under the i386 kernel the command free shows about 3.5 GB available
> memory, so I lost about 0.5 GB RAM due to the i386 architecture.
>
> Therefore I installed the amd64 kernel, which is part of the i386 distribution.
> Now free shows 4048 MB available memory. So, now I have a completely i386
> userland and an amd64 kernel.
>
> In order to build a customized new amd64 kernel I guess, I'll need some 64-bit
> libraries for the building process, because as I said: my system is (with the
> exception of the kernel) completey i386, that is it has only 32-bit libraries.
> Now my questions:
>
> Is it possible, to build an amd64 kernel inside an i386 system (with 32-bit
> libraries)? If yes, what additional packages do I have to install? Are they
> available inside the i386 distribution or do I have to download those from the
> amd64 distribution?
>
> I appreciate all hints and replies.
>
> Dieter

I'm told that the Linux AMD-64 kernel was already in operation before
the first AMD-64 chip was built, so there must have been some way to
build it.  Apparently they used the kernel to debug the hardware design
in emulation.

I'm told there are also cross-compilation versions of gcc.

-- hendrik


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[Jerome Warnier]

Le mercredi 02 juillet 2008 à 16:43 +0200, Dieter Rohlfing a écrit :

> Hello everybody,
>
> when I got my new Dell Latitude D830 (1 GB RAM, Intel Core 2 Duo T7250) a few
> months ago, I installed the 32-bit version of Debian-Lenny (kernel and userland
> i386-architecture).
>
> A few weeks ago I upgraded the laptop with 3 GB RAM, so now it has a total of 4
> GB RAM. Under the i386 kernel the command free shows about 3.5 GB available
> memory, so I lost about 0.5 GB RAM due to the i386 architecture.
>
> Therefore I installed the amd64 kernel, which is part of the i386 distribution.
> Now free shows 4048 MB available memory. So, now I have a completely i386
> userland and an amd64 kernel.
>
> In order to build a customized new amd64 kernel I guess, I'll need some 64-bit
> libraries for the building process, because as I said: my system is (with the
> exception of the kernel) completey i386, that is it has only 32-bit libraries.
> Now my questions:
>
> Is it possible, to build an amd64 kernel inside an i386 system (with 32-bit
> libraries)? If yes, what additional packages do I have to install? Are they
> available inside the i386 distribution or do I have to download those from the
> amd64 distribution?
>
> I appreciate all hints and replies.

When I need to do this, I do use a i386 chroot which I run with the
linux32 command.
This is probably the safest solution. But it requires setting up a full
chroot with the full build suite for kernels.

Hope it helps.

> Dieter

--
Jérôme Warnier
FLOSS Consultant
http://beeznest.net


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[Maciek Kaliszewski]

Dieter Rohlfing wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
>  
<snip>
> Is it possible, to build an amd64 kernel inside an i386 system (with 32-bit
> libraries)? If yes, what additional packages do I have to install? Are they
> available inside the i386 distribution or do I have to download those from the
> amd64 distribution?
>
> I appreciate all hints and replies.
>  
I have similar setup .
To compile kernel and other stuff which require 64 bits I have
debootstrap'ed amd64 environment  . I'm switch to it by schroot .
If you have 1 Gb - 2Gb of harddisk to spare ,it is way to go.
See
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
for details .
I found that i386 version of wpa_supplicant does not work properly with
amd64 kernel .So you might have use native amd64 version of wpa_supplicant.

Hope it helps

Best regards
Maciek Kaliszewski

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[Maciek Kaliszewski]

Jerome Warnier wrote:

> Le mercredi 02 juillet 2008 à 16:43 +0200, Dieter Rohlfing a écrit :
>  
>> Hello everybody,
>>
>>
>> Is it possible, to build an amd64 kernel inside an i386 system (with 32-bit
>> libraries)? If yes, what additional packages do I have to install? Are they
>> available inside the i386 distribution or do I have to download those from the
>> amd64 distribution?
>>
>> I appreciate all hints and replies.
>>    
>
> When I need to do this, I do use a i386 chroot which I run with the
> linux32 command.
> This is probably the safest solution. But it requires setting up a full
> chroot with the full build suite for kernels.
>
>  

He rather needs amd64 chroot :-)

Regards
Maciek Kaliszewski


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[Dieter Rohlfing]

Hello Hendrik,

thanks a lot for your reply.

> I'm told there are also cross-compilation versions of gcc.

I know, that gcc has some options to choose the target architecture. So the
compiled kernel code will be for AMD64.

But kernel code also makes use of common functions (e.g. strcpy, strcmp). The
code for these functions is taken from libraries, and therefore these libraries
must be 64-bit. But my system contains only 32-bit libraries.

If I shall do a chroot, I need a second system, which is 64-bit. In that case I
don't need a mixed system (64-bit kernel + 32-bit userland), then I prefer a
pure 64-bit system and my original problem is vanished.

Dieter


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[Dieter Rohlfing]

Hello Jerome,

thanks a lot for your reply.

> When I need to do this, I do use a i386 chroot which I run with the
> linux32 command.

Little typo? I think, you meant "I do use a amd64 chroot". Thanks to Maciek for
the correction.

> This is probably the safest solution. But it requires setting up a full
> chroot with the full build suite for kernels.

So there's a need for a second system. Then I prefer one system, which is pure
64-bit.

Dieter


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[Maciek Kaliszewski]

Dieter Rohlfing wrote:
> Hello Hendrik,
>
>  
> If I shall do a chroot, I need a second system, which is 64-bit. In that case I
> don't need a mixed system (64-bit kernel + 32-bit userland), then I prefer a
> pure 64-bit system and my original problem is vanished.
>
>  
If you only want to compile amd64 kernel the chroot will not be too big
. Without X libraries it wil be (I think) 0,5 Gb.
I have defacto two full systems main i386 and chrooted amd64

Regards
Maciek Kaliszewski



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[Maciek Kaliszewski]

Dieter Rohlfing wrote:
> So there's a need for a second system. Then I prefer one system, which is pure
> 64-bit.
>  
In pure 64-bit system there is problem with java/flash web plug-ins .
The workaround is (you may guess) 32-bit chroot.
Mixed (kernel amd64 userland 32-bit) as mentioned on
http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
is not recomended for workstation . I can't confirm that because on my
system (workstation) everything works. I have
Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller and
3-D acceleration in my mixed setup works OK.
I don't know what is current status of ATI/NVIDIA binary drivers.

Regards
Maciek Kaliszewski

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[Adam Stiles]

On Thursday 03 Jul 2008, Dieter Rohlfing wrote:
> So there's a need for a second system. Then I prefer one system, which is
> pure 64-bit.

If you're going for a pure 64-bit system, then you'll most probably also have
to go to for a pure Free Software system, since a lot of proprietary, Caged
software is 32-bit only.

This really is not as big a disadvantage as it sounds like; especially as
there will soon be a full GPL Java interpreter and Gnash is coming on in
leaps and bounds.  I personally have never had a problem using just the
Free "nv" driver with nvidia cards, though there are 64-bit versions of the
Caged driver if you feel the need to pollute your system.

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[Dieter Rohlfing]

Hello Adam,

thanks a lot for your reply.

> If you're going for a pure 64-bit system, then you'll most probably also have
> to go to for a pure Free Software system, since a lot of proprietary, Caged
> software is 32-bit only.

I know and agree.

> This really is not as big a disadvantage as it sounds like; especially as
> there will soon be a full GPL Java interpreter and Gnash is coming on in
> leaps and bounds.

I agree, too. See my reply to Maciek. I think, it's only a matter of time. The
more systems > 4 GB RAM appear on the market, the more the need for 64-bit
software.

Regards.

Dieter


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[Jerome Warnier]

Le mercredi 02 juillet 2008 à 22:00 +0200, Maciek Kaliszewski a écrit :

> Jerome Warnier wrote:
> > Le mercredi 02 juillet 2008 à 16:43 +0200, Dieter Rohlfing a écrit :
> >  
> >> Hello everybody,
> >>
> >>
> >> Is it possible, to build an amd64 kernel inside an i386 system (with 32-bit
> >> libraries)? If yes, what additional packages do I have to install? Are they
> >> available inside the i386 distribution or do I have to download those from the
> >> amd64 distribution?
> >>
> >> I appreciate all hints and replies.
> >>    
> >
> > When I need to do this, I do use a i386 chroot which I run with the
> > linux32 command.
> > This is probably the safest solution. But it requires setting up a full
> > chroot with the full build suite for kernels.
> >
> >  
> He rather needs amd64 chroot :-)

Yes, of course, the other way around. Sorry.

> Regards
> Maciek Kaliszewski
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FLOSS Consultant
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[Maciek Kaliszewski]

Dieter Rohlfing wrote:

> Hello Maciek,
>
> thanks a lot for your reply. This is my answer to your last three contributions.
>
>  
>> I have similar setup .
>> To compile kernel and other stuff which require 64 bits I have
>> debootstrap'ed amd64 environment  . I'm switch to it by schroot .
>> If you have 1 Gb - 2Gb of harddisk to spare ,it is way to go.
>>    
>
> For me kernel compilation would be the only 64-bit developement, all other is
> 32-bit.
>
>  
>> I found that i386 version of wpa_supplicant does not work properly with
>> amd64 kernel .So you might have use native amd64 version of wpa_supplicant.
>>    
>
> At the moment it doesn't matter me.
>
>  
>> If you only want to compile amd64 kernel the chroot will not be too big
>> . Without X libraries it wil be (I think) 0,5 Gb.
>> I have defacto two full systems main i386 and chrooted amd64
>>    
>
> That's not so big. The space is not the problem, but the number of partitions.
> There's a limit of 15 scsi partitions (unfortunately hard-coded).
>
>  

If you use chroot there is no need for additional partition Both systems
reside on the same partition
And you don't have to reboot to switch between them.

>> In pure 64-bit system there is problem with java/flash web plug-ins .
>>    
>
> That's true. Unfortunately. :-(
>
> But I think, it's only a matter of time, when the 64-bit java/flash web plug-ins
> are available. Hopefully the problem is vanished in one or two years.
>
>  
>> The workaround is (you may guess) 32-bit chroot.
>>    
>
> I'm not really happy with this solution, because it's a mix-up of two different
> worlds. I prefer clear solutions, either 32 or 64 bit.
>
>  
>> Mixed (kernel amd64 userland 32-bit) as mentioned on
>> http://alioth.debian.org/docman/view.php/30192/21/debian-amd64-howto.html
>> is not recomended for workstation . I can't confirm that because on my
>> system (workstation) everything works. I have
>> Intel Corporation Mobile GM965/GL960 Integrated Graphics Controller and
>> 3-D acceleration in my mixed setup works OK.
>> I don't know what is current status of ATI/NVIDIA binary drivers.
>>    
>
> I've read the how-to and can't see, why it is an option for server, but not for
> workstations. I have the same graphic adapter in my laptop and haven't
> experienced any problems so far.
>
> At the moment I tend to the following solution:
>
> System 1 (64-bit kernel + 32-bit userland) for doing the dayly work
> System 2 (64-bit kernel + userland) just for kernel compilation
>
> For me this has the following advantages:
> - no chroot
> - System 1 is pure 32-bit userland, System 2 is pure 64-bit userland
>   (no mixture of different userland architectures)
> - System 2 is upgradable to a full-blown system for dayly work in order
>   to substitute System 1
> - System 2 has also the function of a maintenance system (small system
>   to do repairing and full backups)
>
> Nevertheless: up to now I haven't made the final decision. I'll use this weekend
> to continue my investigations and therefore I'm thankful for further hints and
> tipps.
>
> Regards.
>
> Dieter
>
>
>  

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[Goswin von Brederlow-2]

make-kpkg --cross-compiel - --arch amd64


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