a translations update

[philipo]

Greetings translators and all-

In the coming days I will be updating the translations (phpdoc-
{lang}) so that the translations will build again, and from there we  
can resume the daily doc builds. Among other things, the new  
reference structure did the following:

  - Changed constants.xml from section to an appendix
  - Split reference.xml into book.xml/setup.xml/etc

This process will go as follows:

  1. If a translation is caught up and builds, skip it
  2. If a translation is actively catching up, skip it
  3. Update or delete constants.xml
  4. Update or delete reference.xml
  5. Once done, evaluate #2

constants.xml:
==============
Each constants.xml file will be evaluated, and will (along with the  
EN-Revision tag) be updated if the changes requires XML Markup only.  
Otherwise, the file will be deleted. There may be a few bugs since  
part of this process is automated, and I am sorry for that. The main  
change here is section-->appendix.

reference.xml:
==============
This is more difficult since it has changed drastically. Most of  
these will be deleted, so instead the EN version will be used thus  
allowing the translation to build along side EN. Translated entities  
and other files (like /functions/*, ini.xml, etc.) will still be kept/
used.

How I'm testing a translation:
==============
$ cd phpdoc-all
$ php configure.php --with-lang=$lang
$ phd -d .manual.xml -t bightml

Note: CVS history for deleted files is preserved and readily  
available in the Attic.
Note: If you would rather have me not touch your translation, please  
speak up soon.
Note: Please do not CC every doc-lang list, unless it's relevant to all.

Regards,
Philip


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[Hannes Magnusson-3]

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Philip Olson <philip@...> wrote:
> Greetings translators and all-
>
>  In the coming days I will be updating the translations (phpdoc-
>  {lang}) so that the translations will build again, and from there we
>  can resume the daily doc builds.

What is the status on this?

We've been waiting now for over 3months to push out new builds..
I would really really like to push out new builds on weekly basis as
of next Friday.

Unless anyone objects then here is my plan:
All translations that do _not_ build by Friday will be _removed_ from phpweb.
All translations that _do_ build will be built and pushed out to mirrors.

Every week all translations will be rebuilt and pushed out.
If a translation suddenly starts building, it will be pushed out to mirrors.

-Hannes

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[Hartmut Holzgraefe-2]

Hannes Magnusson wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Philip Olson <philip@...> wrote:
>> Greetings translators and all-
>>
>>  In the coming days I will be updating the translations (phpdoc-
>>  {lang}) so that the translations will build again, and from there we
>>  can resume the daily doc builds.
>
> What is the status on this?

phpdoc-de conversion is complete, no idea about the others ...

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[philipo]

On 28 Mar 2008, at 04:23, Hannes Magnusson wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Philip Olson <philip@...>  
> wrote:
>> Greetings translators and all-
>>
>> In the coming days I will be updating the translations (phpdoc-
>> {lang}) so that the translations will build again, and from there we
>> can resume the daily doc builds.
>
> What is the status on this?

It's chugging along. I'm having trouble getting over the guilt of  
deleting content but am slowly overcoming it. Many active ones build  
so far. FR is catching up on its own. BG, DE, JA, PT_BR, and RU all  
caught up on their own. I updated several others to built too, and am  
about to delete 99 reference.xml files in ES now. :O  Do note that the  
PRE_REF_CLEANUP CVS tag is used before these type of changes/
deletions, and all deleted files are available in the CVS Attic too.

> We've been waiting now for over 3months to push out new builds..
> I would really really like to push out new builds on weekly basis as
> of next Friday.

For the longest time your opinion was to push out the builds when PHP  
5.3 was released. Not sure what happened three months ago but  
regardless yes, it's a problem that we aren't building. However, I  
don't think a strict timeline is doable but see below.

> Unless anyone objects then here is my plan:
> All translations that do _not_ build by Friday will be _removed_  
> from phpweb.
> All translations that _do_ build will be built and pushed out to  
> mirrors.

We're not quite there yet. I urge people to come up with ideas to help  
smooth this process. One idea is to add an "Other" option in the  
language select box that if selected opens a page explaining the  
situation, including information on how to help translate and why so  
many languages suddenly disappeared. Also, we can keep all languages  
(however old they may be) on the doc dev server (docs.php.net) ...

As for phpweb, I count about 11/31 as at least semi-active, whereas  
the rest inactive. The 11:

   [en] => English (builds)
   [bg] => Bulgarian (builds)
   [pt_BR] => Brazilian Portuguese (builds)
   [fr] => French (catching up)
   [de] => German (builds)
   [it] => Italian
   [ja] => Japanese (builds)
   [pl] => Polish
   [ro] => Romanian
   [ru] => Russian (builds)
   [es] => Spanish

I think we can get all these to build by next Friday, mark the rest as  
inactive in phpweb, as long as an idea like "Other" is implemented.  
And as other translations become active again, they become active  
within phpweb. And by phpweb we mean show up (rsynced) to php.net  
mirrors.

> Every week all translations will be rebuilt and pushed out.
> If a translation suddenly starts building, it will be pushed out to  
> mirrors.


Sometime here all translations will build, but that doesn't mean they  
are up to date. Granted it can be debated if mixing "if they build  
since the big change" and "taking dead translations offline" but it  
seems like the perfect time. All translations should build so new  
translators can work on them, but most should remain offline until the  
appropriate time.

Regards,
Philip


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[Hannes Magnusson-3]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Philip Olson <philip@...> wrote:
>  On 28 Mar 2008, at 04:23, Hannes Magnusson wrote:
>  > We've been waiting now for over 3months to push out new builds..
>  > I would really really like to push out new builds on weekly basis as
>  > of next Friday.
>
>  For the longest time your opinion was to push out the builds when PHP
>  5.3 was released. Not sure what happened three months ago but
>  regardless yes, it's a problem that we aren't building. However, I
>  don't think a strict timeline is doable but see below.

15days was to small window. Since I thought 5.3 was somewhere around
the corner it sounded just as good as any other idea to roll the docs
with 5.3. I however never got any feedback on that idea
(http://php.markmail.org/message/ib2x6pwkz533a7gb) and 5.3 is nowhere
near a release.

I think we do need a strict timeline. Just see what happened with the
loose timeline, "noone" is doing anything and documentation fixes
since last November can't be pushed out because we are waiting for
dead translations, which noone is working on, to build.

>  > Unless anyone objects then here is my plan:
>  > All translations that do _not_ build by Friday will be _removed_
>  > from phpweb.
>  > All translations that _do_ build will be built and pushed out to
>  > mirrors.
>
>  We're not quite there yet. I urge people to come up with ideas to help
>  smooth this process. One idea is to add an "Other" option in the
>  language select box that if selected opens a page explaining the
>  situation, including information on how to help translate and why so

A good chunk of translation "requests" to phpdoc@ and php-webmaster@
go unanswered and most of the translation lists are dead, you think we
suddenly start to care because there is yet another page telling
people to mail the lists?

>  I think we can get all these to build by next Friday, mark the rest as
>  inactive in phpweb, as long as an idea like "Other" is implemented.

http://php.markmail.org/message/q3ezv3w5nd2a2asf
Can we please start taking some actions rather then discuss these
things to death again?

All I want is to push out manual updates with regular intervals, not
twice a year, and I want completely useless translations gone so they
don't lie to our users with bogus or incomplete information.


>  seems like the perfect time. All translations should build so new
>  translators can work on them,

I completely disagree. There is absolutely no point in wasting anyones
time to get translations like Arabic to build.
It hasn't built for years - and there hasn't been a commit there for
even more years.
That translation is completely dead, and wasting anyones time trying
to get it to build is flat out wrong.
It is without a doubt lot easier to start from scratch.

Same applies to most of the other translations that haven't been
touched for years.
I dare you to try one file. Any file, any file at all. Here is one
easy for you: phpdoc/en/language/functions.xml
Now pick a translation. Any translation. Lets say Spanish. It has had
some commits over the years and is in your semi-active-list.
http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/phpdoc/en/language/functions.xml?r1=1.41&r2=1.69&view=patch

Do you honestly think its easier to update the file rather than rewrite it?

-Hannes

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[philipo]

On 28 Mar 2008, at 10:02, Hannes Magnusson wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 5:07 PM, Philip Olson <philip@...>  
> wrote:
>> On 28 Mar 2008, at 04:23, Hannes Magnusson wrote:
>>> We've been waiting now for over 3months to push out new builds..
>>> I would really really like to push out new builds on weekly basis as
>>> of next Friday.
>>
>> For the longest time your opinion was to push out the builds when PHP
>> 5.3 was released. Not sure what happened three months ago but
>> regardless yes, it's a problem that we aren't building. However, I
>> don't think a strict timeline is doable but see below.
>
> 15days was to small window. Since I thought 5.3 was somewhere around
> the corner it sounded just as good as any other idea to roll the docs
> with 5.3. I however never got any feedback on that idea
> (http://php.markmail.org/message/ib2x6pwkz533a7gb) and 5.3 is nowhere
> near a release.
>
> I think we do need a strict timeline. Just see what happened with the
> loose timeline, "noone" is doing anything and documentation fixes
> since last November can't be pushed out because we are waiting for
> dead translations, which noone is working on, to build.

We are miscommunicating.

Several translations now build, some of which were updated in the last  
month or two. Others are catching up. It's a minority of total  
translations, but this is our reality.

>>> Unless anyone objects then here is my plan:
>>> All translations that do _not_ build by Friday will be _removed_
>>> from phpweb.
>>> All translations that _do_ build will be built and pushed out to
>>> mirrors.
>>
>> We're not quite there yet. I urge people to come up with ideas to  
>> help
>> smooth this process. One idea is to add an "Other" option in the
>> language select box that if selected opens a page explaining the
>> situation, including information on how to help translate and why so
>
> A good chunk of translation "requests" to phpdoc@ and php-webmaster@
> go unanswered and most of the translation lists are dead, you think we
> suddenly start to care because there is yet another page telling
> people to mail the lists?

This page is for both users of the PHP Manual as well as translators.  
Yes, people do care. It is to explain why [suddenly] 2/3 of the  
translations seemingly disappeared, and also offers yet another path  
for people to find themselves helping the PHP project. Writing such a  
page is worth it, doesn't hurt, I'll write it.

>> I think we can get all these to build by next Friday, mark the rest  
>> as
>> inactive in phpweb, as long as an idea like "Other" is implemented.
>
> http://php.markmail.org/message/q3ezv3w5nd2a2asf
> Can we please start taking some actions rather then discuss these
> things to death again?

That all changed when the massive new reference structure started to  
gain steam which caused every translation to be outdated and no longer  
build. However, not sure why I seemingly disappeared from that  
thread... sorry everyone about that. But today we are speaking about  
taking action.

> All I want is to push out manual updates with regular intervals, not
> twice a year, and I want completely useless translations gone so they
> don't lie to our users with bogus or incomplete information.

Everyone here wants the manual to build at least weekly. Earlier today  
I proposed 11 translations for us to have online, whereas the rest go  
offline. Doing so means weekly builds again, starting a week from now.

>> seems like the perfect time. All translations should build so new
>> translators can work on them,
>
> I completely disagree. There is absolutely no point in wasting anyones
> time to get translations like Arabic to build.
> It hasn't built for years - and there hasn't been a commit there for
> even more years.
> That translation is completely dead, and wasting anyones time trying
> to get it to build is flat out wrong.
> It is without a doubt lot easier to start from scratch.
>
> Same applies to most of the other translations that haven't been
> touched for years.
> I dare you to try one file. Any file, any file at all. Here is one
> easy for you: phpdoc/en/language/functions.xml
> Now pick a translation. Any translation. Lets say Spanish. It has had
> some commits over the years and is in your semi-active-list.
> http://cvs.php.net/viewvc.cgi/phpdoc/en/language/functions.xml?r1=1.41&r2=1.69&view=patch

The idea is to focus on getting those 11 online this week, then only  
those 11 will be online via phpweb. Whether the others build or not  
does not affect this. Earlier when you wrote that translations should  
go online as soon as they build, I expressed my view that whether  
something builds should not be the factor there. A truly outdated  
translation may build but it's outdated and should be offline until  
proven otherwise. But if it builds, simply adding some text and typing  
'php configure.php' will let people know if their changes are okay...  
future translations that is...

> Do you honestly think its easier to update the file rather than  
> rewrite it?

I don't know, that's case-by-case and something for translators to  
decide.

Regards,
Philip

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[Hannes Magnusson-3]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Philip Olson <philip@...> wrote:
>  This page is for both users of the PHP Manual as well as translators.
>  Yes, people do care. It is to explain why [suddenly] 2/3 of the
>  translations seemingly disappeared, and also offers yet another path
>  for people to find themselves helping the PHP project. Writing such a
>  page is worth it, doesn't hurt, I'll write it.

Or just write up a news entry for it? Safes us a lot of hassle imo.

>  I proposed 11 translations for us to have online, whereas the rest go
>  offline. Doing so means weekly builds again, starting a week from now.
[...]
>  The idea is to focus on getting those 11 online this week, then only
>  those 11 will be online via phpweb. Whether the others build or not
>  does not affect this. Earlier when you wrote that translations should
>  go online as soon as they build, I expressed my view that whether
>  something builds should not be the factor there.

OK.
As of next Friday, April 4th, we build all translations weekly.
All but those 11 languages will be thrown into the
$INACTIVE_ONLINE_LANGUAGES array on phpweb (i.e. does not show up on
php.net/docs nor the "view this page in", and a user won't be
redirected there based on his ACCEPT_LANGUAGE headers).

Am I understanding you correctly?

-Hannes

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[philipo]

On 28 Mar 2008, at 13:36, Hannes Magnusson wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Philip Olson <philip@...>  
> wrote:
>> This page is for both users of the PHP Manual as well as translators.
>> Yes, people do care. It is to explain why [suddenly] 2/3 of the
>> translations seemingly disappeared, and also offers yet another path
>> for people to find themselves helping the PHP project. Writing such a
>> page is worth it, doesn't hurt, I'll write it.
>
> Or just write up a news entry for it? Safes us a lot of hassle imo.

Perhaps, but it's nice to have something more permanent.

>> I proposed 11 translations for us to have online, whereas the rest go
>> offline. Doing so means weekly builds again, starting a week from  
>> now.
> [...]
>> The idea is to focus on getting those 11 online this week, then only
>> those 11 will be online via phpweb. Whether the others build or not
>> does not affect this. Earlier when you wrote that translations should
>> go online as soon as they build, I expressed my view that whether
>> something builds should not be the factor there.
>
> OK.
> As of next Friday, April 4th, we build all translations weekly.
> All but those 11 languages will be thrown into the
> $INACTIVE_ONLINE_LANGUAGES array on phpweb (i.e. does not show up on
> php.net/docs nor the "view this page in", and a user won't be
> redirected there based on his ACCEPT_LANGUAGE headers).
>
> Am I understanding you correctly?

Yep, how does this sound to everyone?

Regards,
Philip


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