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[bdogodev]

> From: Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@...>

> We stink at marketing! :)  Also I think the pool of people who need a
> "real" groupware server isn't terribly large.  The worst thing here is
> that the current website it pretty darn awful and extremely out of date.

I think marketing is hard, and especially for small groups.  The internet
is a crowded place.  I just commented this morning on the ycombinator site
where people thought there was no rival to Sharepoint (like Lotus Notes
and OGO don't exist).  One could say that these are highly-motivated and
savvy people, but somehow people have a blind-spot when it comes to
groupware.  If someone wants the bees-knees of groupware then Notes has no
competition.  If they want something free and open (as many at ycombinator
do), I'd expect them to have some idea of what was available.  I think
that all businesses need groupware providing at the very minimum the
features of OGO.  The businesses just don't know it :-)

> If you want to make a tiny contribution to project marketing I think it
> is useful to go to the major Open Source software index [freshmeat] and
> rate the project(s) and possibly add a kind word in a comment.  Someone
> looking for software will then have some indication that there is
> interest in the product.   People often mistakenly get the idea that
> OpenGroupware is dead/moribund.

I've done that.  But to be honest, I can't remember the last time I
bothered to read stuff at freshmeat - maybe that's just me ;-)

> In the same manner Ohloh is an up-and-comer in such things.  You can
> "stack" software you use so other people can get a [extremely
> unscientific] estimate on the size of the community around a project.
> Ohloh also lets you submit reviews.

I can't seem to get to Ohloh this morning.  I'll have a look later.

> > Ninety percent of the
> > things that have slowed me down in this evaluation have been to do
with
> > getting my own installs of Postfix and Cyrus working,
>
> WMOGAG has a growing section on Cyrus that will be included in the next
> version.  We've been a Cyrus shop since long before OGo.

That's cool, but I think it was kinda ironic that I spent so much more
time fiddling with the mail servers than with OGO.  I don't place an iota
of criticism towards OGO in this regard.  After all, OGO is leaving it
open as to which mail servers people use.  And the integration with
Postfix/Cyrus was basically flawless.  And to tell you the truth, even
with paid for, close source, massively used products like Notes, if it
wasn't for the fact that I'd received a lot of training in Notes admin 10
years ago, I am sure I would struggle getting internet mail working in a
new Notes install.


> Documentation is a bit scant,  I've gathered some up here
> <
http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/whitemice/Development/index_html/view

> > that is more specifically developer focused than what is in
> WMOGAG.  I've also accumulated a collection of Obj-C related
> articles and what not;  if your ever interested I'll tarball those
> and send them off-list.

Yes, please do.  I'm not even someone with a background in C, so ObjC is a
strange beast to me.  Although I have liked some of the stuff I've read by
Brad Cox.

Bernard

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[Adam Tauno Williams]

> > We stink at marketing! :)  Also I think the pool of people who need a
> > "real" groupware server isn't terribly large.  The worst thing here is
> > that the current website it pretty darn awful and extremely out of date.
> I think marketing is hard, and especially for small groups.  The internet
> is a crowded place.  I just commented this morning on the ycombinator site
> where people thought there was no rival to Sharepoint (like Lotus Notes

There also seems to be a powerful bias against Notes in some circles.
Personally,  I've never run a production Notes server - I just have one
here to poke at,  and I've read some documentation.  But I also read
TechNet articles relating to Exchange.  None of these products are
"simple".

> and OGO don't exist).  One could say that these are highly-motivated and
> savvy people, but somehow people have a blind-spot when it comes to
> groupware.  If someone wants the bees-knees of groupware then Notes has no
> competition.

Agree, based on my limited experience.  Notes is the only one that seems
to have succeeded in being both an application and a platform which,
IMO, describes good groupware.   Exchange is often more of an
application, while Sharepoint is more of a platform.  And Exchange,
while it has more users certainly, doesn't seem to have nearly the
active and open developer community that notes does
<http://www.openntf.org/internal/home.nsf>

> If they want something free and open (as many at ycombinator
> do), I'd expect them to have some idea of what was available.  I think
> that all businesses need groupware providing at the very minimum the
> features of OGO.  The businesses just don't know it :-)

"  I think that all businesses need groupware providing at the very
minimum the features of OGO.  The businesses just don't know it :-)"

Man, how many times have I said that during a pitch/presentation! :)

Inevitably you'll have at least one of these <http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html> in your audience.

> > If you want to make a tiny contribution to project marketing I think it
> > is useful to go to the major Open Source software index [freshmeat] and
> > rate the project(s) and possibly add a kind word in a comment.  Someone
> > looking for software will then have some indication that there is
> > interest in the product.   People often mistakenly get the idea that
> > OpenGroupware is dead/moribund.
> I've done that.  But to be honest, I can't remember the last time I
> bothered to read stuff at freshmeat - maybe that's just me ;-)

It certainly isn't as popular as it once was but still probably the most
complete index of software projects.

> > In the same manner Ohloh is an up-and-comer in such things.  You can
> > "stack" software you use so other people can get a [extremely
> > unscientific] estimate on the size of the community around a project.
> > Ohloh also lets you submit reviews.
> I can't seem to get to Ohloh this morning.  I'll have a look later.

Ohloh actually offers some convenient and easy to use tools.  Especially
the ability to check if anyone is committing code to a project anymore.
It also has some flaws such as really underestimating the activity of
some projects depending on how they are structured.

> And to tell you the truth, even
> with paid for, close source, massively used products like Notes, if it
> wasn't for the fact that I'd received a lot of training in Notes admin 10
> years ago, I am sure I would struggle getting internet mail working in a
> new Notes install.

I was happy when I could even get Notes to run!  But I'm not saying that
was a fault of Notes,  I had no idea what I was doing.  And the
documentation is of typical IT quality. :)

> > Documentation is a bit scant,  I've gathered some up here
> > <
> http://docs.opengroupware.org/Members/whitemice/Development/index_html/view
> > > that is more specifically developer focused than what is in
> > WMOGAG.  I've also accumulated a collection of Obj-C related
> > articles and what not;  if your ever interested I'll tarball those
> > and send them off-list.
> Yes, please do.  I'm not even someone with a background in C, so ObjC is a
> strange beast to me.  Although I have liked some of the stuff I've read by
> Brad Cox.

Will do.

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