WTT: 1.5G of PC2700 for 1G of PC100

[Charles Monett]

Sandwich Maker wrote:
>   nor are the races biathlon format - race a
> few laps, stop and shoot at roadside targets...
>  
Would crashing count towards the "stop and shoot at roadside targets"?

> there are folks that will dragrace anything with a motor.  there's an
> active bunch racing cummins diesels, the b5.9 that normally makes
> 300hp.  they're up to 1500hp and 3000 ft-lbs and are having difficulty
> finding transmissions that will stand up, even 1/4mi at a time.
>  
That's one creative way to bend metal.
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[Lionel Peterson-2]

Bill,

Would you be interested in an Apple SCSI card? I parted out a few G3's  
and one had an Adaptec SCSI card...

Lionel

On May 1, 2008, at 9:38 AM, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"  
<gsm@...> wrote:

> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 08:54:10AM -0400, William Enestvedt wrote:
>
>>   Can a Blue & White G# actually address that much RAM? If not, I've
>> got a pair of 128MB PC133 Value RAM (a.k.a. Kingston) sticks that you
>> can have outright.
>
> It can hold 4 DIMMS. It can address up to 128 megabytes per set of
> 8 chips, so you can have 512m of RAM with 4 128m DIMMs, 1g of RAM
> with 4 16 chip 256m DIMMs, or 512m of RAM with 4 8 chip 256m DIMMs.
>
> The DIMMs have to have to be the same speed 100/133 and type, e.g.
> 2-2-2. For some reason you could assort them under OS9, but it won't
> work under OSX.
>
> IMHO it had better be a version 2 motherboard, otherwise, it's not
> worth the effort. The best you will be able to do without extra
> hardware is a single 10g IDE hard drive and if you replace the optical
> drive a 16X PC CDROM or 4X DVD drive.
>
> The motherboard will not support 66mHz DMA, but MacOS will try to  
> use it,
> so you need drives that are not capable of going faster than 33mHz.  
> Apple
> sold faster hard and optical drives which were "fixed" in the  
> firmware.
> The same fix was in OSX 10.0-10.2, but not 10.3 or later.
>
> Geoff.
>
> --
> Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/
> 4X1GM
> _______________________________________________
> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue

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[Mark Brown-9]

Bill Bradford wrote:
> "This is the PROTECTED[0] Big Red Switch.
>
>  
I still chuckle about this one!

This was similar to a former $work.  We had just converted the room from
a former tenants MVS datacentre, to a Unix datacentre.  The
motor/generator had just been pulled out, and replaced with a little
solid-state 35KVA MGE UPS.  The UPS had a
-illuminated-bright-red-epo-button.  At the time, we had no tape
autoloader, to we would take turns going in on the weekend to change the
tapes on the servers.  It was the CIO's turn to change the tapes.  He
took his son with him into the DC. The "Big Red Switch"  was enticing  
to a young fella.

I think $boss spent the rest of the day typing fsck.....

Next week - there was a  plexi cover over the EPO.....

<giggle>

/M
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[Bill Bradford]

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 01:12:33PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
> [0] Previously, it had not had any sort of protective cover, labeling,
> etc - everyone just knew what it was.  Now it had a flip-up cover like
> a fire alarm, along with descripive labeling.

I found a picture!  I had a new digital camera a year or so later and
walked around taking pictures.  One of them happened to be of the exact
Big Red Switch in question:

http://www.mrbill.net/workpics/old/broadwing/brw1/IM000060.jpg

Note the "break glass to push button" style cover.

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
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[Andrew Weiss]

On May 1, 2008, at 9:38 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

> IMHO it had better be a version 2 motherboard, otherwise, it's not
> worth the effort. The best you will be able to do without extra
> hardware is a single 10g IDE hard drive and if you replace the optical
> drive a 16X PC CDROM or 4X DVD drive.
>
Sure it is.  I had a version 1 for 6 years.  I just had it straight  
from the factory with Ultra 2 LVD (Easy to get the 2940's).  In the  
end I had a G4 550 Daystar, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon Mac Edition,  
Superdrive (Pioneer 108), Zip100, and a 72GB + a 9GB drive.  I was  
running 10.4 just fine with PCI Extreme.  It was a great machine.

Andrew

--------------------------------------------------------------
"Remember when people used to kill each other with a sword? Pepperidge  
Farm remembers." -- From a comment on a Gizmodo story about SWORDS  
Combat Robots by dead_red_eyes
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[Phil Stracchino-3]

Mark Brown wrote:

> This was similar to a former $work.  We had just converted the room from
> a former tenants MVS datacentre, to a Unix datacentre.  The
> motor/generator had just been pulled out, and replaced with a little
> solid-state 35KVA MGE UPS.  The UPS had a
> -illuminated-bright-red-epo-button.  At the time, we had no tape
> autoloader, to we would take turns going in on the weekend to change the
> tapes on the servers.  It was the CIO's turn to change the tapes.  He
> took his son with him into the DC. The "Big Red Switch"  was enticing  
> to a young fella.
> I think $boss spent the rest of the day typing fsck.....

btdt.  Engineering manager at a former $employer brought his small
daughter into work one day, and she succumbed to the big glowing red
switch on the front of the main fileserver ... twice.  Why he let her
back in the machine room the second time I will never know.

--
   Phil Stracchino, CDK#2     DoD#299792458     ICBM: 43.5607, -71.355
   alaric@...   alaric@...   phil@...
          Renaissance Man, Unix ronin, Perl hacker, Free Stater
                  It's not the years, it's the mileage.
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[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

I wrote:
>
> >IMHO it had better be a version 2 motherboard, otherwise, it's not
> >worth the effort. The best you will be able to do without extra
> >hardware is a single 10g IDE hard drive and if you replace the optical
> >drive a 16X PC CDROM or 4X DVD drive.
> >

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 09:21:52PM -0400, Andrew Weiss wrote:

> Sure it is.  I had a version 1 for 6 years.  I just had it straight  
> from the factory with Ultra 2 LVD (Easy to get the 2940's).  In the  
> end I had a G4 550 Daystar, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon Mac Edition,  
> Superdrive (Pioneer 108), Zip100, and a 72GB + a 9GB drive.  I was  
> running 10.4 just fine with PCI Extreme.  It was a great machine.

I'm sure it WAS. However if it did not have any of those things, is it
worth buying them NOW? Here it might be because people still ask insane
prices for G4's. In most of the world you can buy the G4 version of
the same machine, or one even faster for the cost of any one of those
upgrades.

I just don't think it's worth putting any money into NOW.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM
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[Bill Bradford]

On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 09:21:52PM -0400, Andrew Weiss wrote:
> Sure it is.  I had a version 1 for 6 years.  I just had it straight from
> the factory with Ultra 2 LVD (Easy to get the 2940's).  In the end I had a
> G4 550 Daystar, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon Mac Edition, Superdrive (Pioneer 108),
> Zip100, and a 72GB + a 9GB drive.  I was running 10.4 just fine with PCI
> Extreme.  It was a great machine.

Speaking of, is the Radeon Mac Edition the best PCI video card I'll be able
to throw into the machine? (and have it work with 10.2/10.3-and-up?)

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
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[Joost van de Griek]

On May 2, 2008, at 5:12, Bill Bradford wrote:

> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 09:21:52PM -0400, Andrew Weiss wrote:
>> Sure it is.  I had a version 1 for 6 years.  I just had it straight  
>> from
>> the factory with Ultra 2 LVD (Easy to get the 2940's).  In the end  
>> I had a
>> G4 550 Daystar, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon Mac Edition, Superdrive  
>> (Pioneer 108),
>> Zip100, and a 72GB + a 9GB drive.  I was running 10.4 just fine  
>> with PCI
>> Extreme.  It was a great machine.
>
> Speaking of, is the Radeon Mac Edition the best PCI video card I'll  
> be able
> to throw into the machine? (and have it work with 10.2/10.3-and-up?)

The Radeon Mac Edition was followed by the Radeon 7000 and then the  
Radeon 9200, which is still currently available (at OWC, <http://eshop.macsales.com/ 
 >, for example).

Those are the retail cards. I don't know the situation on the flashed  
PC card market, however.

My B&W G3 is a rev. 1 with 4-port FirmTek SATA card driving 80 (OS)  
and 250 (data) GB WD drives, 1.1 GHz PPC750FX, 1 GB RAM and a Radeon  
9200. Makes a great server running Tiger (10.4). Only thing I need to  
add to it now, is a gigabit Ethernet card.

,xtG
.tsooJ
--
You can drink 'em pretty, but you can't drink 'em smart.
--
Joost van de Griek
<http://www.jvdg.net/>
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[Mark Benson-2]

> IMHO it had better be a version 2 motherboard, otherwise, it's not
> worth the effort.

There's nothing wrong with Rev 1 boards as long as you don't use the  
slow IDE buses (never EVER put a slave drive on it) for anything and  
avoid putting more than one device on the FireWire, or overloading the  
USB with data. TBH I think the Firewire was still broken on the G4/PCI  
version of that board, I've never got me Rev 2 B&W FireWire to work  
right even.



--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
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[Mark Benson-2]

> The Radeon Mac Edition was followed by the Radeon 7000 and then the  
> Radeon 9200, which is still currently available (at OWC, <http://eshop.macsales.com/ 
> >, for example).

I managed to bag a Radeon 9200 for mine. VERY nice card. Being PCI  
it's a tad bottlenecked but it makes 10.4 more than usable on a G4-
powered B&W.

> Those are the retail cards. I don't know the situation on the  
> flashed PC card market, however.

You can flash some PCI GeForce cards. I forget which and apparently  
they don't work with Core Video even if you do (which is the only  
advantage over using a Radeon 9200). The Radeons are a better bet  
really.

> My B&W G3 is a rev. 1 with 4-port FirmTek SATA card driving 80 (OS)  
> and 250 (data) GB WD drives, 1.1 GHz PPC750FX, 1 GB RAM and a Radeon  
> 9200. Makes a great server running Tiger (10.4). Only thing I need  
> to add to it now, is a gigabit Ethernet card.

Mine is a Rev 2 with a G4/500, 768MB RAM, Radeon 9200 and 2 40GB hard  
drives. Works like a charm. It's a pity it rarely gets used these days.


--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
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[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:29:59AM +0100, Mark wrote:

> There's nothing wrong with Rev 1 boards as long as you don't use the  
> slow IDE buses (never EVER put a slave drive on it) for anything and  
> avoid putting more than one device on the FireWire, or overloading the  
> USB with data. TBH I think the Firewire was still broken on the G4/PCI  
> version of that board, I've never got me Rev 2 B&W FireWire to work  
> right even.

But would you spend money on any upgrades to one?

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@...  N3OWJ/4X1GM
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[Joost van de Griek]

On May 2, 2008, at 14:10, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:29:59AM +0100, Mark wrote:
>
>> There's nothing wrong with Rev 1 boards as long as you don't use the
>> slow IDE buses (never EVER put a slave drive on it) for anything and
>> avoid putting more than one device on the FireWire, or overloading  
>> the
>> USB with data. TBH I think the Firewire was still broken on the G4/
>> PCI
>> version of that board, I've never got me Rev 2 B&W FireWire to work
>> right even.
>
> But would you spend money on any upgrades to one?

Depends on the cost of the base system, and the cost of the upgrades.  
I bought two B&W's, both with PowerLogix 1 GHz G3's already installed.  
No, *I* wouldn't drop the retail price of the upgrade for an old G3,  
normally. But with a bit of effort, these systems can make great,  
cheap PowerPC boxen that can be upgraded to perform rather admirably  
for very little money.

YMMV, and to each their own, of course.

,xtG
.tsooJ
--
You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make  
you want to live to be a hundred.
  - Woody Allen
--
Joost van de Griek
<http://www.jvdg.net/>
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[mp-14]

On Thu, 1 May 2008, Bill Bradford wrote:

> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 01:03:01PM -0500, Steve Hatle wrote:
>> Why should that take 30 hours? Hit the Big Red Button and BOOM data center
>> is shut down.
>> Should only take a minute or two at most...
>
> My first day at $JOB-1 was like that.  I was sitting at my boss' desk,
> filling out paperwork, when there suddenly came a quiet in the room
> (the DC was on the other side of the wall).
>
> People started popping up from cubes like a game of whack-a-mole, and
> then everyone ran into the DC.
>
> I walked in just in time to see the last bit of equipment with power
> in the room, some EMC Symmetrix frames, shut down and go off their
> internal emergency UPS backup.  It was eerily quiet.
>
> What happened was that someone (who was new - but it WASNT me) had
> gone into the other side of the DC and not shut the door properly, and
> it was buzzing at her.  Someone else was waving at her to shut the
> door to make the noise stop - so she figured that the big red button
> next to the door was the "alarm stop" switch, right?
>
> The following week EVERYONE in the building had to go through a short
> course of "This is the PROTECTED[0] Big Red Switch.  This is what
> it does, this is when you should and should not touch it, and if
> you touch it without authorization you will be escorted out of the
> building and your employment terminated." [1]

Yes, this is one of my favorite stories.  I was a customer of said DC
when that happened, but I had worked for the company that owned the DC
previously and was actually invovled in the design of it.  I had told
them to put break-glass over the Big Red Button, but they wouldn't do
it, said it might violate code (no one bothered to check).

The sad thing is, this was the SECOND time someone had hit the Big Red
Button thinking it was the alarm killer button.  The question then
becomes, why would someone think this?  Well, in EVERY OTHER FACILITY
this company ran out of, they had a big red alarm stop button next to
the doors.  You were supposed to prox-card in and out of every door, but
if you didn't there was a handy alarm-kill button next to the door you
could hit.  Nice, eh?

This building was the anomoly.

The first time it happened, the new company I was working for was
demoing our new product to the Board of Directors, showing them that
their investment dollars had actually started to produce something
(other than an office full of raging alcoholics).   They got through
about two pages when it quit responding.

Seems that a telco worker was leaving and tried to go through the exit
door w/o badging first, the alarm went off, so he stood there with his
foot in the door, punching buttons on the wall next to the exit.  The
FM 200 release was the first button he hit, but thankfully, it had
a pull-pin to prevent accidental discharge, then he hit the Big Red
Button.

So, what did the brilliant DC manager do to prevent this from happening
again?  He put a clear plastic cover over the button on a hinge.  After
the second incident that Bill told us about, they put break-glass covers
over the Big Red Buttons.

> Bill
>
> [0] Previously, it had not had any sort of protective cover, labeling,
> etc - everyone just knew what it was.  Now it had a flip-up cover like
> a fire alarm, along with descripive labeling.
>
> [1] There was no corrective action taken against the perpetrator, as
> she had not been properly educated on what the Big Red Button was,
> and so forth.  The ribbing she got from her coworkers sufficed.

--
Michael Parson
mparson@...
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[mp-14]

On Thu, 1 May 2008, Bill Bradford wrote:

> On Thu, May 01, 2008 at 01:12:33PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote:
>> [0] Previously, it had not had any sort of protective cover, labeling,
>> etc - everyone just knew what it was.  Now it had a flip-up cover like
>> a fire alarm, along with descripive labeling.
>
> I found a picture!  I had a new digital camera a year or so later and
> walked around taking pictures.  One of them happened to be of the exact
> Big Red Switch in question:
>
> http://www.mrbill.net/workpics/old/broadwing/brw1/IM000060.jpg
>
> Note the "break glass to push button" style cover.

Yup.

First Big Red Button: FM200 Dump now button, notice the pull pin Big
Yellow Button: The FM200 dely dump button.  If there are still people in
the room that need to be evacuated, or for some other reason, you need
to delay the FM 200 dump, hold the yellow button.

Then the Big Red EPO button.  It took two hits on that button before
they followed my original request.  Just one of many reasons I left that
gig (and aparently had not warned Bill).  Note the little hole in the wall
next to the break-glass, that was where the clear plexi plastic cover had
been secured.

--
Michael Parson
mparson@...
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[Mark Benson-2]

On 2 May 2008, at 13:10, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:

> On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:29:59AM +0100, Mark wrote:
>
>> There's nothing wrong with Rev 1 boards as long as you don't use the
>> slow IDE buses (never EVER put a slave drive on it) for anything and
>> avoid putting more than one device on the FireWire, or overloading  
>> the
>> USB with data. TBH I think the Firewire was still broken on the G4/
>> PCI
>> version of that board, I've never got me Rev 2 B&W FireWire to work
>> right even.
>
> But would you spend money on any upgrades to one?

Asks a man talking to a man who already has?

Seriously though, I have spent a significant amount on upgrading it by  
buying things at good prices when they came along. I used it as my  
main Mac for quite a long time, and as my secondary for a long time  
after that (it does Photoshop 7/Illustrator 10 much better than a iMac/
800) so it stood the test of time and upgrades (contrary to a lot of  
people's assignations about Macs!!). If you look in the right places  
(read: not eBay) you can get most upgrade parts at reasonable prices  
and if the base machine was free then what you spend is what it costs  
so you stop wherever you feel it's still worth it. Either way, you can  
put together a useful, expandable Mac with the space to take 4 hard  
drives, and the performance of a near Mac Mini G4 scale. Only bind is  
it's not gonna run Leopard reliably, but that's no biggy while 10.4.9  
upwards are still widely supported.

I have quite an attachment to mine, as *I* see the B&W G3 as the real  
start of the revolution at Apple. It was a bold statement of  
widespread intent on their part, not just a single market idea. It  
arguably changed the way people looked at PCs as much as the iMac did.  
It proved you could take a standard form factor (midi-tower) and make  
it look good, and work superbly well as a design, and still comply  
with regulation requirements like PC99. It's a shame no-one else in  
the PC world decided it was a good idea, or we wouldn't still be stuck  
with Dells and generics with motherboards buried under all the wires  
and crap in a deep dark hole. Even Apple went back to that in the end :(

--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
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[Joshua Boyd]

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 11:34:38AM +0100, Mark wrote:
 
> >Those are the retail cards. I don't know the situation on the  
> >flashed PC card market, however.
>
> You can flash some PCI GeForce cards. I forget which and apparently  
> they don't work with Core Video even if you do (which is the only  
> advantage over using a Radeon 9200). The Radeons are a better bet  
> really.

Also, keep in mind that MrBill needs 10.2 support.  How many people have
actually made sure that a flashed Geforce 5200 or 6200 will work with
10.2?
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[Bill Bradford]

On Fri, May 02, 2008 at 09:54:19AM -0400, Joshua Boyd wrote:
> Also, keep in mind that MrBill needs 10.2 support.  How many people have
> actually made sure that a flashed Geforce 5200 or 6200 will work with
> 10.2?

At prices of $75+ for a Radeon 9000 or 9200 Mac Edition, it looks like I'll
be staying with the Rage 128 card.

I'm trying to do this with castoff/free/cheap-as-possible parts, and $75 is
more than I've paid for the entire system so far. 8-)

Bill

--
Bill Bradford
Houston, Texas
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[Mark Benson-2]

On 2 May 2008, at 14:54, Joshua Boyd wrote:
> Also, keep in mind that MrBill needs 10.2 support.  How many people  
> have
> actually made sure that a flashed Geforce 5200 or 6200 will work with
> 10.2?

It might see dismissive but I'd probably advise people on 10.2 to  
upgrade, frankly.


--
Mark Benson

My Blog:
<http://markbenson.org/blog>
Visit my Homepage: <http://homepage.mac.com/markbenson>

"Never send a human to do a machine's job..."
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[Sevan / Venture37]

> It might see dismissive but I'd probably advise people on 10.2 to
> upgrade, frankly.

definitely, 10.3 performs so much better.


Sevan / Venture37
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