VOIP advice

[Chris Smart-6]

It's time for me to jump on the VOIP bandwagon.. does anyone have any advice?

I intend to use Ekiga for PC -> PC and figured I may as well get a
calling out card through their partner http://www.diamondcard.us - but
I've no idea who they are or whether I should.

Has anyone does such a crazy thing before? :)

Also, while I'm on the topic, does anyone use a physical phone to
connect to a VOIP provider? And if I got one, could I connect to any
VOIP provider, i.e. diamondcard.us?

Thanks!!
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[Andrew Janke]

> I intend to use Ekiga for PC -> PC and figured I may as well get a
> calling out card through their partner http://www.diamondcard.us - but
> I've no idea who they are or whether I should.

Why not an Oz based provider such as freshtel ?  Given that I would
imagine you are predominately going to be calling Oz numbers.

> Also, while I'm on the topic, does anyone use a physical phone to
> connect to a VOIP provider? And if I got one, could I connect to any
> VOIP provider, i.e. diamondcard.us?

Yes. I use a Linksys SPA3102 connected to iiTalk given that I have
iiNet nekkid ADSL.  Works fine.


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[Brian-252]

Chris Smart wrote:
> It's time for me to jump on the VOIP bandwagon.. does anyone have any advice?
>
You need plenty of bandwidth.
You need a modem with QOS.
A lot will depend on your connection.
Andrew is using 'nekkid dsl'
Rainer is using adsl2
I am using Longreach.

If you use adsl2 you can buy a modem with voip built in

> I intend to use Ekiga for PC -> PC and figured I may as well get a
When you get around to testing this let me know, I can test my end too.

> calling out card through their partner http://www.diamondcard.us - but
> I've no idea who they are or whether I should.
Not sure this is required , see below.
However, the quality of the provider seems to be very important.
I have had a pretty bad time with calls dropping out, service being
disrupted for days!
Having said that it is a lot better now.
KMOO, is slowing getting it together.
I did some evaluation of various providers and found Pennytel to be
about the cheapest
http://www.pennytel.com/
but I went for kmoo because it was local.
TPG are also supposed to be good.
http://www.tpg.com.au/voip/products_services.php

>
> Has anyone does such a crazy thing before? :)
Crazy, is a good word. I thought I was given my problems.
>
> Also, while I'm on the topic, does anyone use a physical phone to
> connect to a VOIP provider? And if I got one, could I connect to any
> VOIP provider, i.e. diamondcard.us?
>
I have a Sipura 3000 which has been rebranded to Linksys.
This is the same box that Engine uses, but they lock it down so that you
have to go with them. Mine can sign up to anyone.
Easy to configure, plug the phone into the box and the box into your router.
Set up an IP address for the box and assign a QOS of 1 for that IP
address in your router.

This is a link to a guide for my router, which also contains the
settings to make it 'Australian'.
http://www.jmgtechnology.com.au/spa_3000_guide.pdf

The guy also sells them.

Brian







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[Andrew Janke]

> You need plenty of bandwidth.

Perhaps, I think this is more a function of how "close" you are to
your provider...  But that could be just pontificating on my part.
(see below)

> You need a modem with QOS.

  $_ =~ s/need/should\ have/

> However, the quality of the provider seems to be very important.
> I have had a pretty bad time with calls dropping out, service being
> disrupted for days!

Aye. I used to use freshtel and while it was ok it was what I came to
believe VoIP "was" (a bit laggy at times and not the clearest). When I
then started to use iiTalk I was pleasantly surprised to find it as
good as "normal" calls. Now this does not mean that iiTalk is the best
VoIP service, I put this down to having no-one between my ADSL
provider and my VoIP provider which means I get precious little lag.
how you influence this I have no idea beyond using the VoIP that your
ADSL connection provides.

> http://www.jmgtechnology.com.au/spa_3000_guide.pdf

$digg++ for the above guy. He has plenty of helpful guides there on
the strange world of "dial plans". And to think that I thought perl
regular expressions used to look like line noise.

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[Bernard Duggan]

Woo!  Finally a subject I have a chance of knowing more than other
people about :)

Andrew Janke wrote:
>> You need plenty of bandwidth.
>>    
> Perhaps, I think this is more a function of how "close" you are to
> your provider...  But that could be just pontificating on my part.
> (see below)
>  
Even the most bandwidth hungry prototol, G.711, only uses 64kbits of
data.  Add UDP and RTSP overhead, and you're still looking at a
"requirement" no more than about 100kbits in each direction.  If you're
using G.729, that drops lower.  Distance to your provider will only
affect latency.  The most important thing is a "good" link - low
latency, minimal packet loss and consistently sufficient bandwith -
between you and the provider's SIP gateway.  The only time you'll
actually need "lots" of bandwidth is if you're doing something else at
the same time (you know, downloading anything) and even with a fat pipe
that can still cause you problems without....
>> You need a modem with QOS.
>>    
>   $_ =~ s/need/should\ have/
>  
Should /definitely/ have unless you want to turn off all your downloads
every time you make/take a call.  I run two voip phones here at home -
one that's QoS'd and one that isn't (only because I've been too lazy to
set it up).  Even on my ADSL2+ connection syncing at 5Mbits the latter
will break up significantly if I have a download running during a call.
>> However, the quality of the provider seems to be very important.
Very true.  iiNet had serious drop-out problems 2 and a half years back
when I started with them, and a lot of people (myself included) were on
the verge of giving up on them.  They're quite good now though - nary a
dropout for over a year.

Cheers,

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[Craig Small]

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 10:56:09PM +1000, Chris Smart wrote:
> Also, while I'm on the topic, does anyone use a physical phone to
> connect to a VOIP provider? And if I got one, could I connect to any
> VOIP provider, i.e. diamondcard.us?

For me i use the ISP I have my connection with, which is Internode.
I've got a Billion 7402VGP ADSL modem which has the VoIP and QoS
built into it.  I then just plug a normal phone into the modem.

Internode is not the cheapest VoIP provider but as all the VoIP traffic
sits on their network the quality is really good.  It's also reliable so
I don't hear complains, which is worth the few extra cents a month to
me.  To an average user, like me, it just sounds like a normal phone
call, no matter what we're doing on our 1500k
ADSL1-only-because-the-telstra-bastards-put-me-on-a-rim link.

 - Craig
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[Chris Smart-6]

Thank you to everyone for your _very_ useful advice!
This also appears a useful link about VOIP
"http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/?tag=VoIP"

I'm looking to get a new router for this, as I'm running an old
Linksys ADSL box that I found under a pile of random computer junk at
home.

>From everyone's advice I really should (read need) get a router with
QOS support and also set up an account with a VOIP provider, one with
the lowest latency - possibly my ISP (Internode).

Then, my options are:

Software:
Application (Ekiga should do it)
Headphones and mic

Hardware:
ATA device to plug into the router
Analogue phone to plug into the ATA device

I'll look into Internode's Nodephone some more..

Thanks!
-c
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[Bernard Duggan]

A couple of extra notes:

Chris Smart wrote:
> ...set up an account with a VOIP provider, one with
> the lowest latency - possibly my ISP (Internode).
The advantage of going with your ISP's own system is that they're able
to manage QoS all the way from your router to the gateway (which iiNet
do, but I don't know about any other others).  Any other option leaves
you open to the vagaries of the open internet (which you'll quite
probably have no problems with at all, but it's basically outside your
control).

 > Hardware:
> ATA device to plug into the router
> Analogue phone to plug into the ATA device
If you're getting a new router anyway, a number are available now with a
built in ATA, which cuts out an extra piece of stuff on your desk and
may well also end up cheaper.  Another option, if you were going to buy
a new phone for this anyway, is a pure SIP phone (though I have no idea
what the pricing on those is like - my only experience here is with
"business grade" ones which come with a "business grade" price tag ;)) -
that removes the need for an ATA altogether and just plugs into your
router like any other ethernet device.  For that you'd want to check
compatibility with your provider before spending money though - for a
"standard", there can be an awful lot of variation in how SIP is
actually implemented.

Cheers,

Bernard
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[Andrew Janke]

>  > Hardware:
>> ATA device to plug into the router
>> Analogue phone to plug into the ATA device
> If you're getting a new router anyway, a number are available now with a
> built in ATA, which cuts out an extra piece of stuff on your desk and
> may well also end up cheaper.  Another option, if you were going to buy
> a new phone for this anyway, is a pure SIP phone (though I have no idea
> what the pricing on those is like

On this matter, I would stick with the ATA device/Router with ATA VoIP
thing in it if only because SIP phone devices are evil expensive
compared to a $15 phone (or whatever you already have for $0).

I would also strongly recommend the "hardware" route over a software
solution if only because you will find that you will use it more.. :)
In our case VoIP was always a "toy" that could be used in our house
when it was software based. Once it was on a "Real" handset household
adoption of the "technology" was a lot greater. :)


a
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[Chris Smart-6]

2008/10/2 Andrew Janke <a.janke@...>:
>>  > Hardware:
>>> ATA device to plug into the router
>>> Analogue phone to plug into the ATA device
>> If you're getting a new router anyway, a number are available now with a
>> built in ATA, which cuts out an extra piece of stuff on your desk and
>> may well also end up cheaper.  Another option, if you were going to buy
>> a new phone for this anyway, is a pure SIP phone (though I have no idea
>> what the pricing on those is like

Not too bad, about $115 or so
("http://pcmarket.com.au/12122_Linksys_SPA901_VoIP_Phone.php"),
although it's not a wireless handset. But since I already have a very
good Uniden base station with 3 wireless handsets, I think plugging
this into an ATA device will be the best option.

Therefore, I'm assuming that the ATA device I get will also have a
standard phone line plug (as well as the RJ45 for VOIP), so that
regular landline calls can come in and out? Does it always make VOIP
calls then, or can I tell it to use the actual landline when (and if)
I want to?

>
> On this matter, I would stick with the ATA device/Router with ATA VoIP
> thing in it if only because SIP phone devices are evil expensive
> compared to a $15 phone (or whatever you already have for $0).

Agreed.

>
> I would also strongly recommend the "hardware" route over a software
> solution if only because you will find that you will use it more.. :)
> In our case VoIP was always a "toy" that could be used in our house
> when it was software based. Once it was on a "Real" handset household
> adoption of the "technology" was a lot greater. :)

Thanks, will do :) I was just interested in the software route for
testing purposes I guess. But I realise this won't reflect the quality
of a hardware based solution (especially if it doesn't support the
full range of codecs).

I _think_ I'm starting to get a handle on this stuff..

-c
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[Andrew Janke]

> Therefore, I'm assuming that the ATA device I get will also have a
> standard phone line plug (as well as the RJ45 for VOIP), so that
> regular landline calls can come in and out? Does it always make VOIP
> calls then, or can I tell it to use the actual landline when (and if)
> I want to?

This is where the magic of "Dial plans" comes in.  Via a cryptic
syntax you can set up all sorts of complex things such that 1300 calls
use your landline and anything else uses VoIP and the likes.

In my case it is all moot given that I am "nekkid"!

However this does depend on the ATA adaptor in question, some even
support multiple SIP providers (one for local, one for international,
etc).


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[Bernard Duggan]

Andrew Janke wrote:
>> Therefore, I'm assuming that the ATA device I get will also have a
>> standard phone line plug (as well as the RJ45 for VOIP), so that
>> regular landline calls can come in and out? Does it always make VOIP
>> calls then, or can I tell it to use the actual landline when (and if)
>> I want to?
My integrated router/ATA has exactly that setup, but presumes that your
"landline" is the same line that your ADSL comes in on (ie, it only has
one physical "incoming" line).  This may not be the case for all of them
though.  Mine makes VoIP calls by default (it supports dial plans, but I
haven't set up any) if the VoIP connection is up and falls back
automatically to the landline when it's not.  You can also override it
to use the landline by just dialling "**" first.  Both types of incoming
call ring on the same phone with a slightly (though annoyingly subtle)
different tone.

(Yet) Another thing to consider is that not all VoIP plans offer a DID
(Direct Inward Dial - a fancy term for a phone number), which means you
can make VoIP calls, but only receive landline calls.  These plans
without a DID are generally cheaper and if you have a landline that you
intend to keep (rather than going naked or wireless), and have no need
for an extra number, they're worth considering.

Cheers,

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[Brian-252]

Chris,

Andrew Janke wrote:
>> Therefore, I'm assuming that the ATA device I get will also have a
>> standard phone line plug (as well as the RJ45 for VOIP), so that
>> regular landline calls can come in and out?
It does but it is not essential.
I do not have a landline here.

Does it always make VOIP
>> calls then, or can I tell it to use the actual landline when (and if)
>> I want to?
Usually based on the number you call.
>
> This is where the magic of "Dial plans" comes in.  Via a cryptic
> syntax you can set up all sorts of complex things such that 1300 calls
> use your landline and anything else uses VoIP and the likes.
>
In addition you can do direct ip-ip dialing, although I have not tried it.

All the above depends on setting up the dial plans so,

> In my case it is all moot given that I am "nekkid"!
>
> However this does depend on the ATA adaptor in question, some even
> support multiple SIP providers (one for local, one for international,
> etc).
>
>
Whichever ATA you get insist on seeing the manual as well.


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[Chris Smart-6]

2008/10/2 Brian <bnc@...>:

> Chris,
>
> Andrew Janke wrote:
>> This is where the magic of "Dial plans" comes in.  Via a cryptic
>> syntax you can set up all sorts of complex things such that 1300 calls
>> use your landline and anything else uses VoIP and the likes.
>>
> In addition you can do direct ip-ip dialing, although I have not tried it.
>
> All the above depends on setting up the dial plans so,
>
>> In my case it is all moot given that I am "nekkid"!

I did look into "nekkid" too, but I'm in Gungahlin and stuck with
1.5Mbit (previously I had Internode ADSL2+ at 9MBit!), so Telstra
phone line for me. I'm just thankful I could get ADSL at all!

>>
>> However this does depend on the ATA adaptor in question, some even
>> support multiple SIP providers (one for local, one for international,
>> etc).
>>
>>
> Whichever ATA you get insist on seeing the manual as well.

Will do.

I have just signed up with Internode's Nodephone to test it out. From
everything I can see, it appears to be one of (if not the) highest
quality VOIP provider in Australia with dedicated network
infrastracture to go with it. Seems to make sense, although they are
more expensive, people say the quality of the calls is such that it
makes it worth it.

It should work with Ekiga, so I'm going to try that first and see how it goes.

If all is well, I'll look into getting a new router and ATA device
(probably separate because I want an all in one Linksys router).

I'll be sure to provide some feedback :)

Thanks again to everyone for their help!

-c
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[Chris Smart-6]

We have liftoff!

I now have my Nodephone account working.. just got home and tested it
with Ekiga and it works! Connection to the echo test worked well
(although I'm currently using a dodgy microphone and speakers). I'll
grab a pair of headphones sometime and continue from there.

-c
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[David Schoen-2]

Sort of on topic...

Does anyone know of a softphone for linux that works with TPG, I tried
getting a few working but couldn't. Maybe I was just using the wrong
settings?

- Dave.

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:27 PM, Chris Smart <mail@...>wrote:

> We have liftoff!
>
> I now have my Nodephone account working.. just got home and tested it
> with Ekiga and it works! Connection to the echo test worked well
> (although I'm currently using a dodgy microphone and speakers). I'll
> grab a pair of headphones sometime and continue from there.
>
> -c
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[bunyip]

On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 15:40 +1000, Chris Smart wrote:
> Therefore, I'm assuming that the ATA device I get will also have a
> standard phone line plug (as well as the RJ45 for VOIP), so that
> regular landline calls can come in and out? Does it always make VOIP
> calls then, or can I tell it to use the actual landline when (and if)
> I want to?
Some ATAs don't have a landline connection (e.g. Linksys 2000 series
don't but 3201 does.)

Always set your dialplan so 000, 18xx and 13xx numbers go via the
landline. Two reasons: they should get routed correctly based on your
location rather than your VSP's and the cost is the same for 13xx
numbers.

Stephen.

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[Chris Smart-6]

2008/10/3 Stephen Boyd <bunyipr@...>:
> Some ATAs don't have a landline connection (e.g. Linksys 2000 series
> don't but 3201 does.)

I'm thinking of getting the Linksys SPA3102. I think it's the only
model that supports connecting your land line, so I'll need this to be
able to receive landline calls as well as VOIP calls.

Anyone got any suggestions or concerns regarding this?

>
> Always set your dialplan so 000, 18xx and 13xx numbers go via the
> landline. Two reasons: they should get routed correctly based on your
> location rather than your VSP's and the cost is the same for 13xx
> numbers.

Good ideas, thanks.

-c
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[Brian-252]

Chris,
>