VM comparison

[KE-5]

Hi Jeroen, having worked with the innards of the JVM and the CLR, what do
you think are the pros and cons of using each as a platform, specifically
for running other languages (e.g. Java on CLR, Jython, IronPython,
Phalanger, Groovy, etc.)?

My intuition is: CLR is the most elegant, but you get stuck on Windows
because Mono is years from mature (e.g. no CAS); whereas, JVM runs anywhere
(i.e. no Windows server licensing costs), but wasn't designed with other
languages in mind, and doesn't have a DLR equivalent.

You can respond personally if you don't want to start a flame war, and I
will keep your response completely confidential.

Thanks so much!
Kevin


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[Jeroen Frijters]

For a language implementer, the CLR is definitely a nicer environment. It has *way* more low level features that are specifically designed to make life for "different" languages easier (but there's still lots of room for improvement). The CLR also has less annoying limitations (e.g. on the JVM a method body can only be 64KB and a method can only have 256 arguments + local variables).

The CLR also fixed what I believe to be the JVM's biggest design flaw: treating classes as the basic unit of code. Of course, Java has jars, but they aren't really first class (the JVM knows essentially nothing about jars). I had hoped that JSR 277 would fix this, but it looks that while it will significantly improve the situation their solution will still fall short of the CLR assembly concept.

BTW, you mention the DLR. I think that most people misunderstand the DLR (a little). The DLR does not add any fundamental functionality to the CLR, it's just a library that runs on top of the CLR. The way I see it is that the value of the DLR is primarily to:
- make it easier to implement dynamic languages
- make it easier for independently developed dynamic languages to interoperate meaningfully

Without the DLR you could still write IronPython and IronRuby and each on its own would work in much the same way as they do today, but if they were independently developed (each without knowing about the other) you would not be interoperate between the two. The DLR makes it possible for them to interoperate on a level above the (static) CLR metadata level.

Regards,
Jeroen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ikvm-developers-bounces@... [mailto:ikvm-
> developers-bounces@...] On Behalf Of hellosticky
> Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 09:57
> To: ikvm-developers@...
> Subject: [Ikvm-developers] VM comparison
>
> Hi Jeroen, having worked with the innards of the JVM and the CLR, what
> do
> you think are the pros and cons of using each as a platform,
> specifically
> for running other languages (e.g. Java on CLR, Jython, IronPython,
> Phalanger, Groovy, etc.)?
>
> My intuition is: CLR is the most elegant, but you get stuck on Windows
> because Mono is years from mature (e.g. no CAS); whereas, JVM runs
> anywhere
> (i.e. no Windows server licensing costs), but wasn't designed with
> other
> languages in mind, and doesn't have a DLR equivalent.
>
> You can respond personally if you don't want to start a flame war, and
> I
> will keep your response completely confidential.
>
> Thanks so much!
> Kevin
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference
> Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100.
> Use priority code J8TL2D2.
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> javaone
> _______________________________________________
> Ikvm-developers mailing list
> Ikvm-developers@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/ikvm-developers

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