Using xchat-gnome's UI for gossip chatrooms

[Xavier Claessens]

Hello,

A friend of mine, Guillaume, who is working on xchat-gnome wants to port
it to telepathy. This means rewrite almost everything in x-g. Instead of
writing a completely new telepathy client only for chatrooms I had the
idea of doing it in gossip.

The idea is basically to use x-g's UI for chatrooms in gossip. I'm
writing here to get ideas and opinions, is that a cool thing to do ?

What about having a x-g's like window separate of private chats for all
chatrooms? Or is it better to embed a x-g like window in a tab on the
same window than private chats like actual chatrooms are?

Martyn told me chat stuff have to be re-factored so maybe it's time to
discuss a bit about a better implementation and UI ?

Xavier.

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[Guillaume Desmottes]

On sam, 2007-01-20 at 11:31 +0100, Xavier Claessens wrote:
> Hello,
>
> A friend of mine, Guillaume, who is working on xchat-gnome wants to port
> it to telepathy. This means rewrite almost everything in x-g. Instead of
> writing a completely new telepathy client only for chatrooms I had the
> idea of doing it in gossip.
>

Hey, I am the Guillaume. :)

In fact I don't really have a strong idea of what I will do.
I wanted to port xchat-gnome to drop the crap xchat's engine and rewrite
it using telepathy.
Xavier suggested me to rather consider to improve IRC/chatrooms in
Gossip using pieces of xchat-gnome.
I'm not sure yet what's the best approach (a new IRC client based on TL
or all in Gossip). Anyway, I started to work on common parts of these 2
solutions. So I'm writing a new gossip-account-widget-irc that we could
extract from Gossip and use for any GNOME telepathy client.


        G.


--
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[Mikael Hallendal]

20 jan 2007 kl. 11.31 skrev Xavier Claessens:

Hi,

Not entirely sure which parts you had in mind and haven't looked on  
xchat-gnome. However, my memory from looking at XChat a few years ago  
is that the code quality was quite low. This could have changed since  
then and maybe even more in xchat-gnome.

I'm not sure which would be the least work, to add the missing  
features to the current implementation or to try to incorporate xchat-
code into Gossip.

However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific  
(unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be so  
to me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop  
rather than merge them into one application.

Best Regards,
   Mikael Hallendal

> Hello,
>
> A friend of mine, Guillaume, who is working on xchat-gnome wants to  
> port
> it to telepathy. This means rewrite almost everything in x-g.  
> Instead of
> writing a completely new telepathy client only for chatrooms I had the
> idea of doing it in gossip.
>
> The idea is basically to use x-g's UI for chatrooms in gossip. I'm
> writing here to get ideas and opinions, is that a cool thing to do ?
>
> What about having a x-g's like window separate of private chats for  
> all
> chatrooms? Or is it better to embed a x-g like window in a tab on the
> same window than private chats like actual chatrooms are?
>
> Martyn told me chat stuff have to be re-factored so maybe it's time to
> discuss a bit about a better implementation and UI ?
>
> Xavier.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gossip-dev mailing list
> Gossip-dev@...
> http://lists.imendio.com/mailman/listinfo/gossip-dev

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[Brian Pepple-2]

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 15:39 +0100, Mikael Hallendal wrote:
> However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific  
> (unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be so  
> to me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop  
> rather than merge them into one application.

+1

/B
--
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[Xavier Claessens]

On sam, 2007-01-20 at 15:39 +0100, Mikael Hallendal wrote:
> 20 jan 2007 kl. 11.31 skrev Xavier Claessens:
>
> Hi,
>
> Not entirely sure which parts you had in mind and haven't looked on  
> xchat-gnome. However, my memory from looking at XChat a few years ago  
> is that the code quality was quite low. This could have changed since  
> then and maybe even more in xchat-gnome.

> I'm not sure which would be the least work, to add the missing  
> features to the current implementation or to try to incorporate xchat-
> code into Gossip.

> However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific  
> (unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be so  
> to me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop  
> rather than merge them into one application.

In fact the code quality is still very poor in xchat and x-g, that's one
of the reasons it would be great to rewrite it from the ground using a
better design than what xchat provides.

Xavier.

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[Xavier Claessens]

On sam, 2007-01-20 at 09:51 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote:
> On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 15:39 +0100, Mikael Hallendal wrote:
> > However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific  
> > (unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be so  
> > to me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop  
> > rather than merge them into one application.
>
> +1

I think that building an IRC client using telepathy automatically means
multi-protocol. Of course a CM can have special interfaces to support
specific features but there is a big part that is common to all MUC. I
think IRC is a basic protocol with not that many features, Jabber
chatrooms are by far more complex, so if gossip can manage correctly
jabber chatrooms it should be ok for an IRC room too, at least it can be
experimented.

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[Mikael Hallendal]

20 jan 2007 kl. 16.15 skrev Xavier Claessens:

> On sam, 2007-01-20 at 09:51 -0500, Brian Pepple wrote:
>> On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 15:39 +0100, Mikael Hallendal wrote:
>>> However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific
>>> (unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be so
>>> to me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop
>>> rather than merge them into one application.
>>
>> +1
>
> I think that building an IRC client using telepathy automatically  
> means
> multi-protocol. Of course a CM can have special interfaces to support
> specific features but there is a big part that is common to all MUC. I
> think IRC is a basic protocol with not that many features, Jabber
> chatrooms are by far more complex, so if gossip can manage correctly
> jabber chatrooms it should be ok for an IRC room too, at least it  
> can be
> experimented.

Using Telepathy makes it possible to make it multiprotocol at less  
cost than implementing all the different backends yourself. That  
doesn't mean it makes sense to make every Telepathy client multi  
protocol. This is the same discussion that has been floating around  
XMPP for ages (since in theory the XMPP provides the same thing as  
Telepath, only using XML instead of D-BUS).

Cheers,
   Mikael Hallendal

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[Martyn Russell-3]

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Hash: SHA1

Mikael Hallendal wrote:
> 20 jan 2007 kl. 11.31 skrev Xavier Claessens:
>
> Hi,

Hi,

> I'm not sure which would be the least work, to add the missing features
> to the current implementation or to try to incorporate xchat-code into
> Gossip.

I think it is less work to add to the current Gossip code.

When I think back over the past few years of all the things that we have
added, fixed, improved on, etc in the chat interface, I think that if I
was writing it now from scratch, there would be a lot of lessons learnt
lost in that implementation.

We have improved the chat code quite a lot over the past years and I
find it hard to imagine how it could be any better than it is now
especially without introducing nasty regressions and lack of
functionality to what we have now.

> However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific
> (unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be so to
> me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop rather
> than merge them into one application.

Although I agree in principle, I don't think this is something everyone
wants. I personally just want ONE chat client to use IRC, Jabber and MSN
from, I am not interested in multiple applications, BUT, I am not an
advanced IRC user and so perhaps we do need both an IRC simple Gossip
solution and an application? I just know how I want to use it.

- --
Regards,
Martyn
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[Keywan Najafi Tonekaboni]

Hi,

Am Samstag, den 20.01.2007, 17:58 +0000 schrieb Martyn Russell:
> Although I agree in principle, I don't think this is something everyone
> wants. I personally just want ONE chat client to use IRC, Jabber and MSN
> from, I am not interested in multiple applications, BUT, I am not an
> advanced IRC user and so perhaps we do need both an IRC simple Gossip
> solution and an application? I just know how I want to use it.

If I take a look to Multiprotocoll-Clients like Gaim, Kopete or Miranda,
which supports classical IRC and common IM networks, I am unhappy with
this solutions.
You can use them for basic chat, of course. But the point of view is
very different in an IM application like Gossip or Gaim. This mapping of
IRC to the IM metapher makes this clients feel in IRC strange. (Sorry,
couldn't describe it better)

On the other hand Gossip has a good MUC-management. Maybe it wouldn't
feel odd in Gossip. Or with a plugin interface* in Gossip, special IRC
features could included without bothering the default UI. (* opening
Pandora's Box)

Is there a way to use a lot of code and "widgets" (MUC-Settings,
Account-Settings) for an standalone client and profit from changes/fixes
in Gossip very fast. Some kind of Gossip-IRC-derivative?

Just some weird ideas/thoughts around this topic.

Regards,

Keywan

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[Steve Frécinaux]

Keywan Najafi Tonekaboni wrote:

> If I take a look to Multiprotocoll-Clients like Gaim, Kopete or Miranda,
> which supports classical IRC and common IM networks, I am unhappy with
> this solutions.

Yes, it's a rather common feeling about multi-protocol (or even
jabber-only) clients.

I sort of think that a MUC-centric new software (without contact list
and such) would be better. IMHO there is not much common between IRC and
jabber MUC on the first hand, and jabber, msn, aim and others on the
other hand, so two different things should probably mean different
applications...
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[Tomasz Sterna]

Dnia 20-01-2007, sob o godzinie 20:44 +0100, Keywan Najafi Tonekaboni
napisał(a):
> If I take a look to Multiprotocoll-Clients like Gaim, Kopete or Miranda,
> which supports classical IRC and common IM networks, I am unhappy with
> this solutions.

Well... Technically Gossip IS a multiprotocol client.
Even without Telepathy backend.

It's just that nobody implemented other than XMPP backend, yet. ;-)


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[Martyn Russell-3]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Steve Frécinaux wrote:
> I sort of think that a MUC-centric new software (without contact list
> and such) would be better.

You can hide the contact list in MUC in Gossip. Removing it completely
would upset a lot of people.

> IMHO there is not much common between IRC and
> jabber MUC on the first hand, and jabber, msn, aim and others on the
> other hand, so two different things should probably mean different
> applications...

Well, the basic feature is the ability to chat, the only thing you can
build on top of that is advanced IRC / Jabber specific features and we
still haven't really finished the basic shared features of both IRC and
Jabber yet really.

- --
Regards,
Martyn
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[Mikael Hallendal]

21 jan 2007 kl. 10.34 skrev Martyn Russell:

Hi,

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Steve Frécinaux wrote:
>> I sort of think that a MUC-centric new software (without contact list
>> and such) would be better.
>
> You can hide the contact list in MUC in Gossip. Removing it completely
> would upset a lot of people.

I think he referred to the main contact list (not the chatroom  
contact list).

>> IMHO there is not much common between IRC and
>> jabber MUC on the first hand, and jabber, msn, aim and others on the
>> other hand, so two different things should probably mean different
>> applications...
>
> Well, the basic feature is the ability to chat, the only thing you can
> build on top of that is advanced IRC / Jabber specific features and we
> still haven't really finished the basic shared features of both IRC  
> and
> Jabber yet really.

I'm quite sure that unless we implement a fullblown IRC client in  
Gossip there will be people who prefer to use XChat or another fully  
supporting IRC client. I don't think we should implement full blown  
IRC as it means a lot of special UI for that. The more different UIs  
we add the less it will feel like one application in the end.

IRC is fundamentally a bit different from IM-clients in that you  
don't have contacts or subscription (you can simulate it to some  
extent by polling for nicknames but it only works if everyone always  
used the same nicknames).

Either way I don't think using XChat code in Gossip would by us  
anything but adding more features that are supported by both XMPP MUC  
and IRC to the chat room would be a good idea.

Cheers,
   Mikael Hallendal

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[Mikael Hallendal]

20 jan 2007 kl. 18.58 skrev Martyn Russell:

Hi,

>> However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific
>> (unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be  
>> so to
>> me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop  
>> rather
>> than merge them into one application.
>
> Although I agree in principle, I don't think this is something  
> everyone
> wants. I personally just want ONE chat client to use IRC, Jabber  
> and MSN
> from, I am not interested in multiple applications, BUT, I am not an
> advanced IRC user and so perhaps we do need both an IRC simple Gossip
> solution and an application? I just know how I want to use it.

It's the same as with all multi-functionality tools. You can use your  
swiss army knife to screw, cut, looking glass. However a screwdriver,  
a larger knife or a larger looking glass will always do the job better.

Gossip is currently leaning towards becoming a swiss army knife and  
by doing so you just have to accept that you will not cater those  
that are looking for the real tools.

Regards,
   Mikael Hallendal

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[Xavier Claessens]

On dim, 2007-01-21 at 11:55 +0100, Mikael Hallendal wrote:

> 20 jan 2007 kl. 18.58 skrev Martyn Russell:
>
> Hi,
>
> >> However, I think that Xchat will always want to be more IRC specific
> >> (unless it is also going multi-protocol) than Gossip can/will be  
> >> so to
> >> me it would make sense to keep XChat next to Gossip on a desktop  
> >> rather
> >> than merge them into one application.
> >
> > Although I agree in principle, I don't think this is something  
> > everyone
> > wants. I personally just want ONE chat client to use IRC, Jabber  
> > and MSN
> > from, I am not interested in multiple applications, BUT, I am not an
> > advanced IRC user and so perhaps we do need both an IRC simple Gossip
> > solution and an application? I just know how I want to use it.
>
> It's the same as with all multi-functionality tools. You can use your  
> swiss army knife to screw, cut, looking glass. However a screwdriver,  
> a larger knife or a larger looking glass will always do the job better.
>
> Gossip is currently leaning towards becoming a swiss army knife and  
> by doing so you just have to accept that you will not cater those  
> that are looking for the real tools.

I agree, gossip will certainly not implement all IRC features, but who
need them ? I think most users just want IM to be well integrated in the
desktop don't need that much functionality. That's why we need a
telepathy IRC client ! Now this telepathy IRC client can be a separate
application to provide a more irc specific UI, but that needs more work
to build another client using telepathy. Gossip already implement most
telepathy features and has a good (even if not perfect) chatroom
abstraction in libgossip that will save lots of work to reuse that
pieces (I hope so). In the end all chatroom protocol is nothing more
than a list of joined rooms with for each a list of members, a topic and
a text-view.

In the other hand gossip may gain of having a x-g-like UI for chatrooms.
I personally prefer the x-g way of displaying a MUC over gossip's
current chatroom UI. When I compare gossip's chatroom window and x-g's I
see no big difference in supported features. I think x-g UI can be
perfectly used for jabber chatrooms. Note that x-g is not xchat, x-g's
ui is lot simpler and provide less (useless for common use cases)
features.

The big question here is: what about having a group-chat-window separate
from private chats ? In gossip actually you have the group chat embedded
as tab in in the same window than private chats, I think it's not a very
good idea. Personally I prefer having a separate window because I keep
jabber/irc chatroom open all the time even if I don't speak on the room.
For private chats I close the window as soon as I have nothing more to
say to the person. So the idea to have a special window looking like
x-g's window for all chatrooms is for me a better choice because I can
auto-join all favorite chatrooms when gossip starts and having them all
in a window and keep that window open and ready to discuss on a irc
channel or a jabber room.

Maybe this difference between chatrooms and private chat is why nobody
use jabber chatrooms. All jabber clients supports jabber chatrooms like
other private chats, that's not what users expect, they prefer the x-g's
way for group chats. That may be a reason why IRC is far more popular
than jabber chatrooms even if jabber is a better and more modern
protocol than IRC.

That's just an idea, maybe I'm wrong and we should really make a
separate application for IRC using telepathy instead of trying to merge
x-g and gossip together...

Xavier Claessens.

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[Mikael Hallendal]

21 jan 2007 kl. 13.17 skrev Xavier Claessens:

Hi,

>> It's the same as with all multi-functionality tools. You can use your
>> swiss army knife to screw, cut, looking glass. However a screwdriver,
>> a larger knife or a larger looking glass will always do the job  
>> better.
>>
>> Gossip is currently leaning towards becoming a swiss army knife and
>> by doing so you just have to accept that you will not cater those
>> that are looking for the real tools.
>
> I agree, gossip will certainly not implement all IRC features, but who
> need them ? I think most users just want IM to be well integrated  
> in the
> desktop don't need that much functionality. That's why we need a
> telepathy IRC client ! Now this telepathy IRC client can be a separate
> application to provide a more irc specific UI, but that needs more  
> work
> to build another client using telepathy. Gossip already implement most
> telepathy features and has a good (even if not perfect) chatroom
> abstraction in libgossip that will save lots of work to reuse that
> pieces (I hope so). In the end all chatroom protocol is nothing more
> than a list of joined rooms with for each a list of members, a  
> topic and
> a text-view.

There are loads of people who use the more advanced features of IRC,  
they will not fall under the "all-in-one"-umbrella. I'm not saying  
that's a bad thing, diversity is a good thing and Gossip neither  
could or should target every possible group of users.

But before I crawl out of my skin, just because you happen to use  
Telepathy doesn't mean you need to have every protocol or feature  
supported by Telepathy in every client using it. It is one of the  
main reasons for having Telepathy in the first place. It's  
*perfectly* reasonable to implement an IRC client on top of the  
Telepathy framework without adding support for XMPP, AIM or other  
protocols.

> In the other hand gossip may gain of having a x-g-like UI for  
> chatrooms.
> I personally prefer the x-g way of displaying a MUC over gossip's
> current chatroom UI. When I compare gossip's chatroom window and x-
> g's I
> see no big difference in supported features. I think x-g UI can be
> perfectly used for jabber chatrooms. Note that x-g is not xchat, x-g's
> ui is lot simpler and provide less (useless for common use cases)
> features.

What is it you like better in xchat (with or without gnome).

> The big question here is: what about having a group-chat-window  
> separate
> from private chats ? In gossip actually you have the group chat  
> embedded
> as tab in in the same window than private chats, I think it's not a  
> very
> good idea. Personally I prefer having a separate window because I keep
> jabber/irc chatroom open all the time even if I don't speak on the  
> room.
> For private chats I close the window as soon as I have nothing more to
> say to the person. So the idea to have a special window looking like
> x-g's window for all chatrooms is for me a better choice because I can
> auto-join all favorite chatrooms when gossip starts and having them  
> all
> in a window and keep that window open and ready to discuss on a irc
> channel or a jabber room.

If that is what we are targeting we could just as well implement it  
as a separate program all together. Which in my opinion isn't such a  
bad idea and add support for XMPP MUC and IRC in that and have Gossip  
for a more personal one-to-one use. That ways both the clients can be  
tailored to do their thing best.

> Maybe this difference between chatrooms and private chat is why nobody
> use jabber chatrooms. All jabber clients supports jabber chatrooms  
> like
> other private chats, that's not what users expect, they prefer the  
> x-g's
> way for group chats. That may be a reason why IRC is far more popular
> than jabber chatrooms even if jabber is a better and more modern
> protocol than IRC.

I'm pretty sure it's because IRC is already widely used and migrating  
a lot of people over is hard.

> That's just an idea, maybe I'm wrong and we should really make a
> separate application for IRC using telepathy instead of trying to  
> merge
> x-g and gossip together...

I don't think this can really be answered before we have a better  
idea on which features you hope to bring to Gossip by doing so.

Best Regards,
   Mikael Hallendal

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[Martyn Russell-3]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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Xavier Claessens wrote:

> In the other hand gossip may gain of having a x-g-like UI for chatrooms.
> I personally prefer the x-g way of displaying a MUC over gossip's
> current chatroom UI. When I compare gossip's chatroom window and x-g's I
> see no big difference in supported features. I think x-g UI can be
> perfectly used for jabber chatrooms. Note that x-g is not xchat, x-g's
> ui is lot simpler and provide less (useless for common use cases)
> features.
>
> The big question here is: what about having a group-chat-window separate
> from private chats ? In gossip actually you have the group chat embedded
> as tab in in the same window than private chats, I think it's not a very
> good idea. Personally I prefer having a separate window because I keep
> jabber/irc chatroom open all the time even if I don't speak on the room.

You shouldn't design just for your use cases. I like to keep private
chat tabs open all day because the people I talk to tend to go offline
and then later come online. I also like ALL my conversations in one
place so I can easily find them and switch between them. So the current
"all-in-one-window" solution works nicely for me.

In reality the question you ask here is completely down to personal
preference and I don't want to separate the two types of chat, because
at the end of the day, you are doing the same thing with both windows,
chatting... If you look at xchat-gnome, it also has private chats in the
same window.

> For private chats I close the window as soon as I have nothing more to
> say to the person. So the idea to have a special window looking like
> x-g's window for all chatrooms is for me a better choice because I can
> auto-join all favorite chatrooms when gossip starts and having them all
> in a window and keep that window open and ready to discuss on a irc
> channel or a jabber room.
>
> Maybe this difference between chatrooms and private chat is why nobody
> use jabber chatrooms.

I wouldn't say that is TRUE.

> All jabber clients supports jabber chatrooms like
> other private chats, that's not what users expect, they prefer the x-g's
> way for group chats. That may be a reason why IRC is far more popular
> than jabber chatrooms even if jabber is a better and more modern
> protocol than IRC.

I agree with Mikael on this point, it is more than likely down to
persuading people.

- --
Regards,
Martyn
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