Usage of individual applications?

[geminiguy]

 Hello, I am just new here, but have had interest in the looking glass project for some time. My question is (this is probably the wrong area, sorry) I am working with some people for a new linux distro and I am wondering, could individual applications / programs from LG3d be used (indivdually) on the distro??
 For example: I would love to see the 3d cd-changer (music file) and the Images programs included on our distro, but as individual applications??
 Our distro will actually be for children from pre-k - high school and it will be large enough without adding the entire LG3D environment... which is why I would like to include at least some of the cooler features
 Could the "music" application be configured to run / operate within say the KDE environment??

 Thank you

[Kirk Turner]

On 10/16/07, geminiguy <geminiguy333@...> wrote:

Could the "music" application be configured to run / operate within say the
KDE environment??

Theoretically yes - but it may be a bit of work. Basically the LG3D API is built upon Java3D
 - however the API is closely coupled with the SceneManager (think WindowManager). The default scene manager is quite large and complex, and you could potentially implement a smaller scene manager that doesn't have the full functionality and is more or less hidden. There is a actually a test/cutback scenemanger included... in src/classes/org/jdesktop/lg3d/scenemanager/test/TestSceneManager.java.

I'm trying to remember how to enable it (I can't find the email about how to enable it). I'll get back to you on that.

I know that others have used lg3d for visualisation apps in the past (I remember Paul making reference to it), but I'm not sure how closely coupled this was to a scenemanager, or as independent apps.

Kirk

[geminiguy]

Kirk Turner wrote:

On 10/16/07, geminiguy <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>
> Could the "music" application be configured to run / operate within say
> the
> KDE environment??
>
Theoretically yes - but it may be a bit of work. Basically the LG3D API is
built upon Java3D
 - however the API is closely coupled with the SceneManager (think
WindowManager).
I'm trying to remember how to enable it (I can't find the email about how to
enable it). I'll get back to you on that.
I know that others have used lg3d for visualisation apps in the past (I
remember Paul making reference to it), but I'm not sure how closely coupled
this was to a scenemanager, or as independent apps.

Kirk

 Thank you very much ! If this is possible.... it could prove extremely interesting!

[Kirk Turner]

Ok - I got an answer from Paul and it doesn't look as easy as I hoped. Basically even if you do as I suggested you'd still need a window for the 3D stuff to render within - basically the Java3D (which is the underlying technology) would need to be rendered to the window, so it'll just look like a 3D application within a window (much like when you play a 3D game in windowed mode). I thought this might be the case, and Paul confirmed it.

However, with the work that is being done with the Composite Extension of x11 (especially through Compiz) it may be possible to achieve what you are looking for, basically blending the 3D with the existing desktop (much like you see at http://people.freedesktop.org/~keithp/screenshots/). From this perspective it would be easier to work with Java3D as the first point and to quote Paul " I'd suggest he starts with the simple Java 3D program and posts to the Java 3D forum for help if he needs to modify any of the java 3d rendering layere."  Once Java3D supports it, then it could be integrated with lg3d. You should also be able to find some discussions about the Composite Extension in these forums as Deron had his hand in things there ( http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/proto/compositeproto.git;a=blob_plain;f=compositeproto.txt)

I might have a poke around with this as well (not that I have the time at the moment) - but I'm interested in finding out how the compiz plugins works as well.

Kirk

[lg3d]

Thank you Kirk,
 Sorry I never got back to you or posted any further. I will move to the suggested forum and hope this becomes an interesting venture.
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[Kirk Turner]

On 10/29/07, lg3d@... <lg3d@...> wrote:
>  Sorry I never got back to you or posted any further. I will move to the suggested forum and hope this becomes an interesting venture.

I've actually been playing around with this, and I have had some
progress - but its not there yet. I've been working with GTK rather
than QT (you mentioned that your looking at a KDE based system), but
the principles should be applicable to QT as well. So I'll keep you
posted - and I'll post to the Java3D forums as well if I get
somewhere.

Kirk

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[lg3d]

Thanks Kirk, I'll see you over in 3D
Quick question though.... what would you need from my end as far as i.e. a Linux dev, etc.?? Just want to know so I can see about putting a small team together to get involved.. or one person, etc.? Let me know

Regards
Paul
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[Kirk Turner]

> Quick question though.... what would you need from my end as far as i.e. a Linux dev, etc.?? Just want to know so I can see about putting a small team together to get involved.. or one person, etc.? Let me know\

There are 4 parts of the work as I see it to achieve what you are
looking at - working from the top down:
1. Develop a cut down LG3D scenemanager to run the applications
2. Develop launchers for the individual applications required, and
some sort of boot framework (there is an example app launch in the
devscripts directory of lg3d - HelloUniverse - this predates the jar
based application inclusion, so I'm not sure if/how applicable it will
be).
3. Compiz integration with Java3D - I'm pursuing this part but if you
aren't looking to contaminate a KDE environment with GTK then this'll
need porting to KDE.
4. Compiz rendered Java3D integration with LG3D - this may be part of
developing a cut down lg3d scenemanager (I'm not 100% up on the java3d
integration part - but I know Paul Byrne will be able to help here
with pointers)

From a linux dev perspective 2 and 3 are the more linux focused areas,
but step 3 is the first port of call for this. However 1 and 2 can be
done now before I've finished.

Kirk

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[lg3d]

Thanks Kirk,
 I have posted a call in our forums. Now I'll just have to sit back and wait, I'm sure I can find someone with dev/tech abilities who will be interested.
 This would be quite a step for all involved!!!
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[lg3d]

hello Kirk,
 WOuld this be a more feasable approach than KDE??

http://lxde.sourceforge.net/
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[Kirk Turner]

>  WOuld this be a more feasable approach than KDE??
> http://lxde.sourceforge.net/

The window manager doesn't really matter, so if you are heading
towards KDE for other reasons then it won't matter - I've just talked
about porting because I have almost zero experience with the QT
libraries, and a little bit of experience with GTK+.

I'm learning as I go, so I might not have a full understanding of
this, but basically the implementation that I'm looking at uses compiz
(or more technically the composite extension of X11) - with the main
feature being that alpha transparency is supported at the window level
- so that if the decoration is removed from the window, and Java3D is
rendered onto a transparent canvas then the only components remaining
visible are the Java3D scenegraph, making it look like your 3D
application is just running in the desktop. To my understanding, this
is the principle employed by the screenlets
(http://www.compiz.org/Desktop_Screenlets) that are available as
extensions to the compiz project.

As a point of reference I've been following this article:
http://plan99.net/%7Emike/blog/?p=38

Kirk

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[lg3d]

That's a good blog. The screen shots in the first, mimic features used in the SamLinux OS, which utilizes the XFCE desktop (which is cool) instead of screenlets they call them applets....
 KDE has the new version either releasing very soon, or already released (I have to check) I have not checked in a while and I should be keeping up on it.
 I'm just waiting on some Linux devs to respond (they seem to be extremely tough to get in touch with these days) Lot of big projects going on this year, hopefully they start freeing up as the end of the year is rolling in. Lot of projects on the back burners, just waiting for them.
 Im gonna be setting up a test machine soon with all the requirments, to get LG3D w/ java3D going to get a head start for myself...and then just start picking it apart.
 Have you any idea what kind of "additions to size" I could expect to be added to KDE in adding these two LG3D programs with all the dependancies included?? My main concern is size with the .iso in the end (only reason I was looking at the LXDE)

 Just want to say, I truly appreciate all your efforts and work on this Kirk, Thanks

Regards
Paul
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[Kirk Turner]

On 10/30/07, lg3d@... <lg3d@...> wrote:
>  Have you any idea what kind of "additions to size" I could expect to be added to KDE in adding these two LG3D programs with all the dependancies included?? My main concern is size with the .iso in the end (only reason I was looking at the LXDE)

There is a LG3D live version, I'm not sure it was remastered with the
1.0 release (which would mean its running 0.7 I think), that was based
upon a slackware live cd. From memory the full blown desktop for lg3d
comes in around 70 MB - the majority of this is the background images
and other art work however which won't be required given the cut down
scenemanager to be used.

Looking at the lg3d-core.zip that wonderland uses it comes in at 2.1
MB which should be minimal install you need for lg3d itself. The apps
are probably a bit larger if they have artwork (I'm not sure Zoetrope
does, but Trumplayer has some icons from memory) - I don't have the
incubator checked out at work to double check this - but if you are
building you should see two jar files built for these two apps which
will give you the size requirements.

The other main addition you'll need here is java6 with Java3d (and I
think JAI). This is more of a payload than lg3d itself.

One thing you might also need to check is if the licencing is
compatible for java3d and JAI if you are bundling them on a CD (would
be worth a search/question on the Java3D forums)

Kirk

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[lg3d]

Seems as though size wont be an issue then. I'll be checking on that licensing though (very important detail)
 PCLinuxOS comes with Java6 which is a nice start for me :) I gotta get that machine up, seems like this may go a bit quicker than I had thought.... at least the basics (which is awesome)
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[lg3d]

> Looking at the lg3d-core.zip that wonderland uses it
> comes in at 2.1
> MB which should be minimal install you need for lg3d
> itself. The apps
> are probably a bit larger if they have artwork (I'm
> not sure Zoetrope
> does, but Trumplayer has some icons from memory) - I
> don't have the
> incubator checked out at work to double check this -
> but if you are
> building you should see two jar files built for these
> two apps which
> will give you the size requirements.

Trumplayer uses minimize and exit icon, which are in lg3d-core.jar,
and other icons are in Trumplayer.jar .

And, Trumplayer requires JLayer 1.0 (jl1.0.jar) to play MP3 files.
I think it is no problems to include JLayer, because JLayer license is LGPL.
Please do not forget include it.

Thanks,

yasuhiro(thaniwa)
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[lg3d]

Thank you very much. Nope, I will definitely not forget.
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[lg3d]

Hey Kirk,
 Didn't want you to think I forgot about this idea.
 At the moment, it seems difficult to get in touch with any developers on my end, but I am sure that this will change with the coming of a new year. Some projects wil be wrapping up and devs will begin their hunt for the next, newest project, always seeking to satisfy their hunger for a good challenge :)
 Thank you very much for all you have done so far and for the timely responses, and I look forward to working with you further on this, and hope it becomes an active and successful project / merger :) I feel that should this become a reality, it will take the KDE / linux environment by storm, I think the two environments compliment each other and will hopefully play nice together. And, if the Looking Glass project can be broken down, and  individual applications be utilized within a different environment (such as KDE, and even Gnome, XFCE, etc.) all the better for all involved
 I only wish I had some experience and familiarity with programing / development, as I would be all over this item!!!
 But for now, all I can do, is set up a test machine, download the binaries, and continuously bork and crash the system until I get it right (which would more than likely happen by accident if I do) hehe
 Once I get that machine up and running, I will post here and in 3d for help in desperation :)

Paul
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[Kirk Turner]

Just an update for you - I have it more or less working with GTK+ now
(Java3d Hello Universe I mean). I just need to learn a bit more about
GTK to work out how to get it to render immediately - because I have
to wave the mouse over it to work at the moment.

You can see a screenshot (this was just the image rendering, but I
have the animations work as well now) on my blog
http://blog.gameldar.fdns.net

So the theory should also be applicable to QT/KDE as well. I haven't
had a chance to play in the last couple of days but I've been meaning
to post on the java3d forum too.

If you are trying to get LG3D working just post here and we'll see
what we can help with.

Kirk

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[Kirk Turner]

On 11/15/07, lg3d@... <lg3d@...> wrote:
> Hoping Im correct in assuming you are that happy new Dad in the blog?? "Gamelder"?? Anyway, if this be correct... CONGRATULATIONS!!!! And best wishes to the 3 of you

Yep that is me... :) hence some intermittent work on the project...

>  I had a look at the vid.. and it looks as though it's coming along very nicely :)
Its coming along. Basically I was showing it off to my wife the next
day and left it running for about 20 minutes and it crippled my
machine... so there is a pretty major memory leak... but I'm pretty
sure this is on the GTK+ side (as I have less idea about developing in
it)... so that is next on my task to try and solve (along with
rendering speed, which I think will be related).

Kirk (aka Gameldar)

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