Ukrainian Wikipedia

[Анатолій Гончаров]

Hi.

I want to tell about copyright problems in Ukrainian Wikipedia.
(sorry for my non-pure English, I believe that somebody will understand me)

Sysops of uk-wp abuse copyright uploading images with wrong licences. Some
of them uploads non-free images with free licence. Other ones use fairuses
in templates and userpages. And you may upload ANY image and put license
{{Fairuse in}} and image will stay on Wikipedia during months.

Many images has no source or no author information. There are also many
images without fairuse rationale (FUR) and without sources or licences.

There are also articles from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, Ukrainian Soviet
Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Mining Encyclopedia and others. I
wrote some RfArb's about copyright for this books, but Arbitrators said me
that they are not under copyright (but I don't think so).

About images:
In 2007, when I was sysop of uk-wp, I tagged hundreds of images and after
few months I deleted them. After my desysoping (I think it was bureaucrats'
mistake) we can observe "deletion wars" between sysops: one of them (Albedo)
deleted images as no licenced and other one (A1) restored them; and last day
they repeat. So some images was deleted and restored three times. Albedo in
January put empty templates for fair-use rationale to hundreds of images and
in February he was desysopped (not only for dealing with images but it was
one of reasons). Then there was many images with nld, nsd templates, and
nobody delete them. I told about it on the IRC channel #wikipedia-ru, but
some of users told about this to Ukrainian admins. After it some of them spy
upon me on IRC channels (stewards and ru) to I don't blurt out something
about copyrights.

So, Ukrainian Wikipedia has many images with wrong licences and some users
reupload these images to Commons but Commons' admins deleted images. And
users don't understand why and blame me (I am Commons' sysop). Btw, after
this my comment:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=11881974 some users
on IRC blame me: "You discredit uk-wp" and some admins don't speak with me
after that.. Then I suffer :'(

But last week I had some conflict with one of sysops (Turzh): he made edit
war (twice revert my edits without comments) and then protect article. I
wrote Arbcom request about it, but it is not accepted yet. In request I
wrote also: "There are hundreds images with nld and nsd. Sysops must deal
with them instead of edit warring". And then he begin "deals" with these
images. I was wandered: on some images he replace {{nld}} with {{Fairuse
in}}, in other ones - replaced CC-BY-SA with PD-self. Then he begins to
upload images with license CC-BY-SA from the site sobory.ru , but author
allows only non-commercial usage: see (OTRS ticket#2008070810020169). I ask
that sysop to delete these images because such permission is unappropriate
but he continued upload images. Today I ask him again to delete it (because
images with free license maybe uploaded by any user to Commons; and I as
Commons' sysop care about purity of project), but he said that he not
uploaded it in Commons, it is uk-wiki, and he does what he want. Then I put
templates {{db}} to some images but he revert tagging, protect some articles
and blocked me for 24 hours. And he wrote ultimatum: "if somebody unblock
Ahonc that I'll leave Wikipedia", that's why another admins fear to unblock
me, because Turzh will leave wiki and later other users will be said about
that sysop: "Oh, look, it is that guy, due to him Turzh left Wikipedia"...

I suggest to emergency desysop of user Turzh (and maybe some others, i.e.
A1, who also abuse EDP); block him for copyright abusing; unblock me.

And also I propose to forbid upload images to uk-wp (such as in Spanish
wiki) because sysops don't know how to deal with them.


--
Anatoliy Honcharov (Анатолій Гончаров)
mailto:Ahonc.ua@...
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[Christiano Moreschi]

Hmm. This is interesting. I suggest we get a posse of commons admins together to check these allegedly suspect images out systematically.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:18:39 +0300
> From: ahonc.ua@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
>
> Hi.
>
> I want to tell about copyright problems in Ukrainian Wikipedia.
> (sorry for my non-pure English, I believe that somebody will understand me)
>
> Sysops of uk-wp abuse copyright uploading images with wrong licences. Some
> of them uploads non-free images with free licence. Other ones use fairuses
> in templates and userpages. And you may upload ANY image and put license
> {{Fairuse in}} and image will stay on Wikipedia during months.
>
> Many images has no source or no author information. There are also many
> images without fairuse rationale (FUR) and without sources or licences.
>
> There are also articles from Great Soviet Encyclopedia, Ukrainian Soviet
> Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of Ukraine, Mining Encyclopedia and others. I
> wrote some RfArb's about copyright for this books, but Arbitrators said me
> that they are not under copyright (but I don't think so).
>
> About images:
> In 2007, when I was sysop of uk-wp, I tagged hundreds of images and after
> few months I deleted them. After my desysoping (I think it was bureaucrats'
> mistake) we can observe "deletion wars" between sysops: one of them (Albedo)
> deleted images as no licenced and other one (A1) restored them; and last day
> they repeat. So some images was deleted and restored three times. Albedo in
> January put empty templates for fair-use rationale to hundreds of images and
> in February he was desysopped (not only for dealing with images but it was
> one of reasons). Then there was many images with nld, nsd templates, and
> nobody delete them. I told about it on the IRC channel #wikipedia-ru, but
> some of users told about this to Ukrainian admins. After it some of them spy
> upon me on IRC channels (stewards and ru) to I don't blurt out something
> about copyrights.
>
> So, Ukrainian Wikipedia has many images with wrong licences and some users
> reupload these images to Commons but Commons' admins deleted images. And
> users don't understand why and blame me (I am Commons' sysop). Btw, after
> this my comment:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?diff=prev&oldid=11881974 some users
> on IRC blame me: "You discredit uk-wp" and some admins don't speak with me
> after that.. Then I suffer :'(
>
> But last week I had some conflict with one of sysops (Turzh): he made edit
> war (twice revert my edits without comments) and then protect article. I
> wrote Arbcom request about it, but it is not accepted yet. In request I
> wrote also: "There are hundreds images with nld and nsd. Sysops must deal
> with them instead of edit warring". And then he begin "deals" with these
> images. I was wandered: on some images he replace {{nld}} with {{Fairuse
> in}}, in other ones - replaced CC-BY-SA with PD-self. Then he begins to
> upload images with license CC-BY-SA from the site sobory.ru , but author
> allows only non-commercial usage: see (OTRS ticket#2008070810020169). I ask
> that sysop to delete these images because such permission is unappropriate
> but he continued upload images. Today I ask him again to delete it (because
> images with free license maybe uploaded by any user to Commons; and I as
> Commons' sysop care about purity of project), but he said that he not
> uploaded it in Commons, it is uk-wiki, and he does what he want. Then I put
> templates {{db}} to some images but he revert tagging, protect some articles
> and blocked me for 24 hours. And he wrote ultimatum: "if somebody unblock
> Ahonc that I'll leave Wikipedia", that's why another admins fear to unblock
> me, because Turzh will leave wiki and later other users will be said about
> that sysop: "Oh, look, it is that guy, due to him Turzh left Wikipedia"...
>
> I suggest to emergency desysop of user Turzh (and maybe some others, i.e.
> A1, who also abuse EDP); block him for copyright abusing; unblock me.
>
> And also I propose to forbid upload images to uk-wp (such as in Spanish
> wiki) because sysops don't know how to deal with them.
>
>
> --
> Anatoliy Honcharov (Анатолій Гончаров)

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[masti]

Анатолій Гончаров pisze:

> Hi.
>
> I want to tell about copyright problems in Ukrainian Wikipedia.
> (sorry for my non-pure English, I believe that somebody will understand me)
>
> Sysops of uk-wp abuse copyright uploading images with wrong licences. Some
> of them uploads non-free images with free licence. Other ones use fairuses
> in templates and userpages. And you may upload ANY image and put license
> {{Fairuse in}} and image will stay on Wikipedia during months.
>

Anatolij,
I understand your problem. The thing is there is different understanding
of Copyright in different law systems. We have similar problem in
pl.wiki with for example, FairUse graphics uploaded on Commons which
cannot be used in pl.wiki due to copyright violations. It is no so easy
to upload article/picture to common store and have it to comply with all
countries law. I would sy it is impossible.

But when it is uploaded onto your  wiki then have a local community
agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.

masti

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[VasilievVV]

masti writes:
> But when it is uploaded onto your  wiki then have a local community
> agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
>
> masti
As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
copyright problems at all.
--VasilievVV

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[Christiano Moreschi]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. Do we have a Macedonian Wikipedia? If so, someone should check the images there. So many of the Macedonians on en are just awful when it comes to copyright. One chap even commented that "it's in the blood". Nobody objected.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:59:38 +0400
> From: vasilvv@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
>
> masti writes:
> > But when it is uploaded onto your  wiki then have a local community
> > agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
> >
> > masti
> As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> copyright problems at all.
> --VasilievVV
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@...
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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[Pavlo Shevelo]

> As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> copyright problems at all.
> --VasilievVV

Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
"hints" and emotions).
Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).


On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV <vasilvv@...> wrote:

> masti writes:
>> But when it is uploaded onto your  wiki then have a local community
>> agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
>>
>> masti
> As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> copyright problems at all.
> --VasilievVV
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@...
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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[Christiano Moreschi]

Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300
> From: pavlo.shevelo@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
>
> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> > copyright problems at all.
> > --VasilievVV
>
> Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
> achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
> "hints" and emotions).
> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).

l

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[Анатолій Гончаров]

Pavlo: what did I say wrong? Do you want diffs? You was inactive on
Wikipedia last two months and do nothing with images now you advocate your
colleges-sysops.

2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@...>:

> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> > copyright problems at all.
> > --VasilievVV
>
> Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
> achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
> "hints" and emotions).
> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV <vasilvv@...> wrote:
> > masti writes:
> >> But when it is uploaded onto your  wiki then have a local community
> >> agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
> >>
> >> masti
> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> > copyright problems at all.
> > --VasilievVV
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@...
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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[VasilievVV]

Pavlo Shevelo writes:
> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
>  
I'm not claiming it, it's how I understand the situation in Anatoly's
description.
--VasilievVV

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[Pavlo Shevelo]

Christiano,

As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every
complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.

As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to
became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains)
just shocked by that :(
I don't think that  "some commons admins" - it's right solution.

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi
<moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:

>
> Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
>
> CM
>
> Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
>
>> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300
>> From: pavlo.shevelo@...
>> To: foundation-l@...
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
>>
>> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
>> > copyright problems at all.
>> > --VasilievVV
>>
>> Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
>> achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
>> "hints" and emotions).
>> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
>> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
>> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
> l
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery
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[Pavlo Shevelo]

> I'm not claiming it, it's how I understand the situation in Anatoly's
> description.
 His description is far not 100% correct and you (having almost no
language barrier and accessibility to IRC channel etc) is in very best
position not to just rely on his mailing.

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:19 PM, VasilievVV <vasilvv@...> wrote:

> Pavlo Shevelo writes:
>> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
>> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
>> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
>>
> I'm not claiming it, it's how I understand the situation in Anatoly's
> description.
> --VasilievVV
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@...
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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[Christiano Moreschi]

Umm, why not? Obviously don't pick Ahonc's mates, but commons admins in general tend to be fairly smart, neutral, and very good with copyright. It comes with the job. Unfortunately, if this is a case of "local rules mean we can say fuck copyright", that won't wash. There are, obviously, global standards. Enforced by law, no less.

Regardless, you lot can't audit yourselves. And don't patronize me with platitudes.

CM

Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.

> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:23:21 +0300
> From: pavlo.shevelo@...
> To: foundation-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
>
> Christiano,
>
> As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every
> complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
>
> As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to
> became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains)
> just shocked by that :(
> I don't think that  "some commons admins" - it's right solution.
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi
> <moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:
> >
> > Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on this Wikipedia. We shall see.
> >
> > CM
> >
> > Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300
> >> From: pavlo.shevelo@...
> >> To: foundation-l@...
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
> >>
> >> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
> >> > copyright problems at all.
> >> > --VasilievVV
> >>
> >> Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
> >> achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
> >> "hints" and emotions).
> >> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
> >> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
> >> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
> > l
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719806/direct/01/
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> >
>
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[Анатолій Гончаров]

Pavlo, I have another point of view than more users of uk-wp. I think that
low-quality free image is the best than high-quality FU-image, but more
users think vice versa.

2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@...>:

> Christiano,
>
> As you well know (it's well known fact) that each and every
> complicated problem has simple, so wrong solution.
>
> As the matter of fact Ahonc, who was desysoped in uk: managed to
> became a sysop in commons and uk: community was (and still remains)
> just shocked by that :(
> I don't think that  "some commons admins" - it's right solution.
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:13 PM, Christiano Moreschi
> <moreschiwikiman@...> wrote:
> >
> > Pish-tush. Less insults, please. Theoretically, this should be very
> simply to solve. Get some commons admins on it who all grok copyright, find
> them a translator if need be, and see if copyright vio really is rife on
> this Wikipedia. We shall see.
> >
> > CM
> >
> > Odi profanum vulgus et arceo.
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:10:46 +0300
> >> From: pavlo.shevelo@...
> >> To: foundation-l@...
> >> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Ukrainian Wikipedia
> >>
> >> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
> ignores
> >> > copyright problems at all.
> >> > --VasilievVV
> >>
> >> Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
> >> achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
> >> "hints" and emotions).
> >> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
> >> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
> >> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
> > l
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > The John Lewis Clearance - save up to 50% with FREE delivery
> > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719806/direct/01/
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@...
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Pavlo Shevelo]

I have no doubts that you have a bunch of diffs as situation with
copyright is not really good in uk:

But you put fact in so speculative way that it generates wrong
conclusions in reader minds.
The best example - you almost completely omit information why you was
desysoped in uk: as well as you hided it when you was nominated to
commons sysop as well as you speculate about Albedo desysoping while
in reality you always vote against him (want some diffs).

And look what ids loveliest your thing: you start personal attacks
immediately - this time against me.


On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Анатолій Гончаров <ahonc.ua@...> wrote:

> Pavlo: what did I say wrong? Do you want diffs? You was inactive on
> Wikipedia last two months and do nothing with images now you advocate your
> colleges-sysops.
>
> 2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@...>:
>
>> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
>> > copyright problems at all.
>> > --VasilievVV
>>
>> Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
>> achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
>> "hints" and emotions).
>> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
>> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
>> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV <vasilvv@...> wrote:
>> > masti writes:
>> >> But when it is uploaded onto your  wiki then have a local community
>> >> agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete it.
>> >>
>> >> masti
>> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores
>> > copyright problems at all.
>> > --VasilievVV
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > foundation-l@...
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> Анатолій Гончаров
> mailto:Ahonc.ua@...
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[Анатолій Гончаров]

I told my point of view, maybe some conclusions are wrong (as for your
opinion). Yes, I vote oppose Albedo, but hear we told about copyright
abusing and you try to change topic and discuss me. Your was inactive last 2
months and I think that your don't know all situation (it's my opinion).

2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@...>:

> I have no doubts that you have a bunch of diffs as situation with
> copyright is not really good in uk:
>
> But you put fact in so speculative way that it generates wrong
> conclusions in reader minds.
> The best example - you almost completely omit information why you was
> desysoped in uk: as well as you hided it when you was nominated to
> commons sysop as well as you speculate about Albedo desysoping while
> in reality you always vote against him (want some diffs).
>
> And look what ids loveliest your thing: you start personal attacks
> immediately - this time against me.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:16 PM, Анатолій Гончаров <ahonc.ua@...>
> wrote:
> > Pavlo: what did I say wrong? Do you want diffs? You was inactive on
> > Wikipedia last two months and do nothing with images now you advocate
> your
> > colleges-sysops.
> >
> > 2008/7/15 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo@...>:
> >
> >> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
> ignores
> >> > copyright problems at all.
> >> > --VasilievVV
> >>
> >> Well well well - it's exactly what Anatoliy (Ahonc) is trying to
> >> achieve - to rise up the scandal speculating (mixing the facts with
> >> "hints" and emotions).
> >> Anyhow "Ukrainian Wikipedia ignores copyright problems at all" - is
> >> wrong claim and Mr. VasilievVV has a plenty of opportunities to get to
> >> know that (presuming minimal good intentions if any).
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:59 PM, VasilievVV <vasilvv@...> wrote:
> >> > masti writes:
> >> >> But when it is uploaded onto your  wiki then have a local community
> >> >> agreement about the rules. If the article abuses those rules delete
> it.
> >> >>
> >> >> masti
> >> > As far as I understood, the problem is that Ukrainian Wikipedia
> ignores
> >> > copyright problems at all.
> >> > --VasilievVV
> >> >
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Анатолій Гончаров
> > mailto:Ahonc.ua@...
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--
Анатолій Гончаров
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