Therion + Subversion

[Jonny Prouty]

Hello All,

I have recently begun experimenting with using Subversion to manage my Therion data. I'm curious whether anyone else has done this and if you have any specific advice? So far it works great, but I haven't really put it through its paces.

-Jonny ^v^

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[Ladislav Blažek-2]

Hi,
I can recommend you some decetralized VCS over CVS/Subversion. I
prefer Bazaar - http://bazaar-vcs.org/ - but there are others
(Mercurial, GIT, Darcs...)

Bazaar vs Subversion:
http://jam-bazaar.blogspot.com/2007/10/bazaar-vs-subversion.html
Bazaar workflows:
http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows#head-8b6348176ddc592bc64a124bd917e88569615def

1. You don't need to configure/maintain "central" server
2. You can work disconnected - you can have unlimited "branches"
stored locally on your computer (stable, development)
3. You can publish you branch to FTP/FTPS server

Ladislav

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Jonny Prouty <dormat@...> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I have recently begun experimenting with using Subversion to manage my
> Therion data. I'm curious whether anyone else has done this and if you have
> any specific advice? So far it works great, but I haven't really put it
> through its paces.
>
> -Jonny ^v^
>
> _______________________________________________
> Therion mailing list
> Therion@...
> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>

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[Jonny Prouty]

Thank you for your suggestions Ladislav. I will definitely try out Bazaar. I'm putting a small presenation together regarding using Therion for collaborative cave mapping. It looks like Bazaar might be the perfect addition! The little bit I looked at makes me think it is much more "caver friendly" than Subversion. Thanks again.

-Jonny ^v^

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Ladislav Blažek <lada.blazek@...> wrote:

Hi,
I can recommend you some decetralized VCS over CVS/Subversion. I
prefer Bazaar - http://bazaar-vcs.org/ - but there are others
(Mercurial, GIT, Darcs...)

Bazaar vs Subversion:
http://jam-bazaar.blogspot.com/2007/10/bazaar-vs-subversion.html
Bazaar workflows:
http://bazaar-vcs.org/Workflows#head-8b6348176ddc592bc64a124bd917e88569615def

1. You don't need to configure/maintain "central" server
2. You can work disconnected - you can have unlimited "branches"
stored locally on your computer (stable, development)
3. You can publish you branch to FTP/FTPS server

Ladislav

On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Jonny Prouty <dormat@...> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I have recently begun experimenting with using Subversion to manage my
> Therion data. I'm curious whether anyone else has done this and if you have
> any specific advice? So far it works great, but I haven't really put it
> through its paces.
>
> -Jonny ^v^
>

> _______________________________________________
> Therion mailing list
> Therion@...
> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>
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[Martin Lüthi-5]

Hi

Jonny Prouty writes:
 > I have recently begun experimenting with using Subversion to manage my
 > Therion data. I'm curious whether anyone else has done this and if you have
 > any specific advice? So far it works great, but I haven't really put it
 > through its paces.

Shure, Subversion works great for Therion files, as for any text based
files. You might also consider a distributed version control system such as
Mercurial, Bazaar or Git, where you send patch sets, instead of having a
central repository.

If you use Emacs to edit your Therion files you get VC support for free. I
wrote a very rough mode to edit and compile Therion files.

Best, Martin
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[wookey-4]

On 2008-06-24 10:26 -0400, Jonny Prouty wrote:
>    Hello All,
>
>    I have recently begun experimenting with using Subversion to manage my
>    Therion data. I'm curious whether anyone else has done this and if you
>    have any specific advice? So far it works great, but I haven't really put
>    it through its paces.


Yes - the mulu data repsoitory has been in subversion for about 4(?)
years now. It worked quite well and tortoise svn made it accessible to
the non-expert on Windows. The project was not a huge success because
the average caver found therion too complicated/intimidating to use
(so only the survey geeks used it anyway) but the subversion part of
it was OK.

Wookey
--
Principal hats:  Balloonz - Toby Churchill - Aleph One - Debian
http://wookware.org/
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[Philip Balister]

I have had very good luck with therion + survex with subversion.

I also know of a project using compass with subversion.

Philip

Jonny Prouty wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> I have recently begun experimenting with using Subversion to manage my
> Therion data. I'm curious whether anyone else has done this and if you have
> any specific advice? So far it works great, but I haven't really put it
> through its paces.
>
> -Jonny ^v^
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Therion mailing list
> Therion@...
> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion

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[Martin Sluka]

On 24.6.2008, at 21:11, Wookey wrote:

> The project was not a huge success because
> the average caver found therion too complicated/intimidating to use

It is quite pity, because in the future somebody will have to redraw  
it in therion or something similar again.

Martin
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[Andrew Atkinson]

Yes a real shame, goodness knows how many hours Wookey and I spent on it
only to have it thrown away.

I have introduced a few people to Therion, and the complication of it,
does intimidate the majority, but then again so does survex...
However, possibly the front end can be made more friendly for users that
cannot think in a representational manner?? But I guess time, as usual,
will be the main difficulty.

Andrew

Martin Sluka wrote:

> On 24.6.2008, at 21:11, Wookey wrote:
>
>> The project was not a huge success because
>> the average caver found therion too complicated/intimidating to use
>
> It is quite pity, because in the future somebody will have to redraw  
> it in therion or something similar again.
>
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
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> Therion@...
> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>

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[Martin Sluka]

On 28.6.2008, at 10:09, Andrew Atkinson wrote:

> possibly the front end can be made more friendly for users that
> cannot think in a representational manner?

The th2 format is plain text - quite easy readable. There is no any  
reason to make another map editor or interpreter.

The only problem is to find somebody who does it.

Martin
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[Ladislav Blažek-2]

On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Martin Sluka <martinsluka@...> wrote:

>
> On 28.6.2008, at 10:09, Andrew Atkinson wrote:
>
>> possibly the front end can be made more friendly for users that
>> cannot think in a representational manner?
>
> The th2 format is plain text - quite easy readable. There is no any
> reason to make another map editor or interpreter.
>
> The only problem is to find somebody who does it.

The biggest problem is how to simplify UI and keep current
flexibility. Traditional approach used in other cave surveying
software - using tables for entering data is maybe more user friendly
but also pretty constraining. And it can have impact on whole workflow
because then you will probably not be able to use more survey methods
in one survey etc. So new UI is huge task in comparison to learning
therion basics - IMHO new UI is waste of time.

Lada

>
> Martin
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
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[Andrew Atkinson]

I am not sure it is the entering of data that people find hard,
(although they do, but it can be set up by someone else, so all they
have to do is enter the figures.)

It is the drawing that is the problem, not to mention the real
difficulties of linking scraps, but again others can do that. The input
of the drawing, and splitting into scraps is the real donkey work that I
would like to be able to let the people that did the survey input.
Nothing like the direct feedback of doing it yourself to teach people
what they need to do.
Unfortunately it is the UI that turns most people on or off from using a
program, the background validity, power of advanced features, never
really bother them, which is a shame.
For example quiet often people are put off survex, as there is not a
simple start so they use compass, loosing all the original data, sigh,
then realise they need more power so move to survex (sorry I'll stop
this rant, just a happened in a project I am involved in, and I get all
the extra work to do)
Another example is a cave on Mendips has just been resurveyed in detail
(for archaeological reasons) but the person looked at therion but
decided that it was easier to buy and learn illustrator than work out
Therion...... Then I found a blunder in one of the legs, Therion would
have dealt with most of this, but no he is now redrawing it, maybe he is
a lost case, but there are many others doing similar things, ie the
whole of the HMG china survey, wit the exception of the bit Julian Todd
has done in Tunnel.
As I said I believe that the UI is key, but good background work is
essential.

Andrew

Ladislav Blažek wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Martin Sluka <martinsluka@...> wrote:
>> On 28.6.2008, at 10:09, Andrew Atkinson wrote:
>>
>>> possibly the front end can be made more friendly for users that
>>> cannot think in a representational manner?
>> The th2 format is plain text - quite easy readable. There is no any
>> reason to make another map editor or interpreter.
>>
>> The only problem is to find somebody who does it.
>
> The biggest problem is how to simplify UI and keep current
> flexibility. Traditional approach used in other cave surveying
> software - using tables for entering data is maybe more user friendly
> but also pretty constraining. And it can have impact on whole workflow
> because then you will probably not be able to use more survey methods
> in one survey etc. So new UI is huge task in comparison to learning
> therion basics - IMHO new UI is waste of time.
>
> Lada
>
>> Martin
>> _______________________________________________
>> Therion mailing list
>> Therion@...
>> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Therion mailing list
> Therion@...
> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>
>

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[Ladislav Blažek-2]

I see following "problems" with current Map editor:

1. Map editor is not WYSIWYG and for real map preview export is
needed. It could be very annoying especially for new users. Questions
for therion authors: Is it doable (with some "preffered symbol set"
settings in Xtherion) to display real symbols in map editor? Then
there will remain some fighting with clip -on/off etc. but for that
export is needed.
2. UI for entity options is not very user friendly. Some traditional
"Properties" dialog box with allowed options after right click on
entity is right solution.

Yes, splitting into scraps needs some thinking but personally I don't
see this as big problem. What can be improved is joining (problems
with passage fills).

So still no reason for completelly new UI.

PS: I am only occasional programmer so I don't think I am able to
really help with mentioned things. Just my thoughts. Otherwise I am
happy therion user :-)

L.


On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 10:32 AM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@...> wrote:

> I am not sure it is the entering of data that people find hard,
> (although they do, but it can be set up by someone else, so all they
> have to do is enter the figures.)
>
> It is the drawing that is the problem, not to mention the real
> difficulties of linking scraps, but again others can do that. The input
> of the drawing, and splitting into scraps is the real donkey work that I
> would like to be able to let the people that did the survey input.
> Nothing like the direct feedback of doing it yourself to teach people
> what they need to do.
> Unfortunately it is the UI that turns most people on or off from using a
> program, the background validity, power of advanced features, never
> really bother them, which is a shame.
> For example quiet often people are put off survex, as there is not a
> simple start so they use compass, loosing all the original data, sigh,
> then realise they need more power so move to survex (sorry I'll stop
> this rant, just a happened in a project I am involved in, and I get all
> the extra work to do)
> Another example is a cave on Mendips has just been resurveyed in detail
> (for archaeological reasons) but the person looked at therion but
> decided that it was easier to buy and learn illustrator than work out
> Therion...... Then I found a blunder in one of the legs, Therion would
> have dealt with most of this, but no he is now redrawing it, maybe he is
> a lost case, but there are many others doing similar things, ie the
> whole of the HMG china survey, wit the exception of the bit Julian Todd
> has done in Tunnel.
> As I said I believe that the UI is key, but good background work is
> essential.
>
> Andrew
>
> Ladislav Blažek wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Martin Sluka <martinsluka@...> wrote:
>>> On 28.6.2008, at 10:09, Andrew Atkinson wrote:
>>>
>>>> possibly the front end can be made more friendly for users that
>>>> cannot think in a representational manner?
>>> The th2 format is plain text - quite easy readable. There is no any
>>> reason to make another map editor or interpreter.
>>>
>>> The only problem is to find somebody who does it.
>>
>> The biggest problem is how to simplify UI and keep current
>> flexibility. Traditional approach used in other cave surveying
>> software - using tables for entering data is maybe more user friendly
>> but also pretty constraining. And it can have impact on whole workflow
>> because then you will probably not be able to use more survey methods
>> in one survey etc. So new UI is huge task in comparison to learning
>> therion basics - IMHO new UI is waste of time.
>>
>> Lada
>>
>>> Martin
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Therion mailing list
>>> Therion@...
>>> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Therion mailing list
>> Therion@...
>> http://www.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>>
>>
>
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>

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[Duncan Collis]

On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@...> wrote:
<snip/>
> there are many others doing similar things, ie the
> whole of the HMG china survey, wit the exception of the bit Julian Todd
> has done in Tunnel.

Quite a large amount of the Tianxing System (around half of the 35km
total) has now been drawn in Therion, at least to some degree -
several km is passage walls only for the time being.

Duncan
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[Andrew Atkinson]

Apologies for my error, I did not know about that. Who has been doing that?

Andrew

Duncan Collis wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@...> wrote:
> <snip/>
>> there are many others doing similar things, ie the
>> whole of the HMG china survey, wit the exception of the bit Julian Todd
>> has done in Tunnel.
>
> Quite a large amount of the Tianxing System (around half of the 35km
> total) has now been drawn in Therion, at least to some degree -
> several km is passage walls only for the time being.
>
> Duncan
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>

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[Duncan Collis]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:04 PM, Andrew Atkinson <andrew@...> wrote:
> Apologies for my error, I did not know about that. Who has been doing that?

I have.  It's work in progress, without any parts ready for
publication so it's no surprise you didn't know about it.

Duncan.
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[Martin Sluka]

On 1.7.2008, at 17:04, Andrew Atkinson wrote:

> Who has been doing that?

As I know Dave Clucas still works on part of Mulu in therion.

Martin
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[Andrew Atkinson]

I know, but I have no idea what will happen when the underlying data is
rearranged, which is what they where proposing to do.....

I wish him luck, both Wookey and I gave up, well I have and Wookey seems
to have paused for some time

Andrew

Martin Sluka wrote:

> On 1.7.2008, at 17:04, Andrew Atkinson wrote:
>
>> Who has been doing that?
>
> As I know Dave Clucas still works on part of Mulu in therion.
>
> Martin
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>

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