Thank You Very Much

[Hal Vaughan]

Recently I set up a home theater system as a reward to myself for
building up a small business to the point where it runs itself.  The
downside was having 5 remote controls to it.  I considered an
all-in-one, but didn't like the prices and thought they were just WAY
overpriced.  Then I remembered LIRC.

I've worked with open source projects before and have a strong
commitment to FOSS.  I could not have even started my business without
FOSS and the only software I use in my business that isn't FOSS is Java
(well some would now consider Java FOSS, some would not).  Along the
way I've contributed to FOSS projects along the way and I've done a few
of my own.  One is a control program for an HD radio that can connect
by either the serial port or USB, so that is not unlike LIRC in some
ways.

Since I got past my startup troubles with the business, when I find FOSS
programs that I can use and contribute to, I like to help with code
when I can and at the very least, figure out how much that project
saved me and contribute at least half of that.  (Sometimes it saves me
$500, so I can contribute that, sometimes it saves me a few grand, so I
may only contribute half of that total.)  Bottom line: I LIKE TO
SUPPORT FOSS.  I've even made sure I have certain FOSS projects in my
trust/will so I can help them even after I'm pushing up daisies.

I would rather take a few days to write a program to add what I need to
a FOSS project than buy something off the shelf, be it hardware or
software.

When I looked at universal remotes, I figured it'd be at least $300 to
get one that behaved like I wanted.  Instead of wasting time browsing
through manuals for remotes, I figured I'd use my entertainment box
with LIRC and setup my own remote.

I won't be doing that anymore.  I had a neat and simple Perl app that I
could run through ssh on my Nokia 770.  It would, when done, have a
number of different tab panes and on each tab pane the user could
define the size and placement of their buttons, along with the text or
icon to use on the button and also define what remote functions that
button would provide.  Unlike most universal remotes, it would not
require selecting the component to send commands.  The user could have
the buttons for commands they use most often on one tab pane and use
them no matter which component they controlled.

To do that I needed help from people in  the LIRC project or on this
mailing list.  I've been trying to work out what I can, but sometimes
it takes me a while to catch on, due in part to a learning disability.

My first request for help from the project went unanswered for over a
week.  I've been on many FOSS mailing lists and when I've seen that,
the original sender often says, "So are you guys going to help or is
this a private club?"  Usually they're ruder than that and everyone
says, "If you were nice to us, we'd be more likely to help," but the
irony is that when they were nice, they were ignored.  When they were
rude, they got their help.

Why?

I don't know.  I don't care.  My first request went a week without a
response.  Then I ask what's wrong and I do get a response that
includes some useful info, but when I asked about recommendations for
*transceivers* people have used with LIRC that have done well, I get a
suggestion for a remote -- not at all what I need and from the context
of my email, I think that was clear.

So I go out and buy a transceiver, one that looks good, the maker is
good at responding to me when I ask questions.  Unlike on this list,
when I ask him a question I get an answer.  I order the USB-UIRT, which
I think is a good product then find out there's a bug in the Linux
kernel modules that create problems with this product.  Okay, if I had
Googled the correct words, I could have found it, but it didn't turn up
in my research and there was nothing on the LIRC site to indicate any
problem with this device.

Again I ask for help, specifically if there is a way to specify the
device and driver in a conf file.  I get an answer which
includes, "Most of the answer to your questions are found in the irsend
manpage."  Actually, that is not true, the irsend manpage is quite
sparse.  There are some good points, but at the end I'm still not sure
just how I can specify the device and driver in a conf file.

I blunder through, install a new version of Ubuntu on a system I was
soon going to put away anyway.  I test it out and find that the codes I
get when trying to define a remote are not the same as the ones in that
remote's definition on the LIRC project.  I've asked about that and I'm
still waiting for an answer.

Then last night I ask about delays I see with irsend.  Okay, less than
24 hours, but I don't expect any help on that, since it seems S.O.P. on
this list.

I have at least 5 remotes, including the one kept in my study, that
don't seem to be in your database or, if they are, not all the buttons
are included.  I was going to create conf files and upload them.  I was
working on the GUI for a Perl frontend for Internet tablets like my
N770.  And, when all was done and I got it working, as always, I was
going to contribute to LIRC financially.

Okay, I'm just one person.  I know you guys are pretty important.  
You've got stuff included in the Linux kernel, you're more worried
about the deep and fascinating technical issues than helping a newbie
who wants to learn and later contribute.  I'm just one person.

But I'm no longer a person who has anywhere near a positive thought in
my head about LIRC.  Instead of contributing, I just called
Crutchfield, ordered two remotes and the blaster that comes with them
for about $210 including shipping.  I won't need to use my Internet
tablet now and won't need LIRC.

I don't mind wading through things to get a program written.  Swimming
upstream and fighting to get the info you need is part of programming.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to fight a bunch of people on a mailing
list who I know have the answers I need but just don't have the time,
effort, or courtesy, to answer questions from a newbie.  I've got other
things to do in my life.  I have a yard I like working in, I have
woodworking projects to do, I'm an award winning competitive tango
dancer who needs to practice, and I have scripts to write for a small
production company I'm starting.  

I don't have time to fight you, this group, for answers if I'm going to
do any coding.  I have too many other things to do.  I'll just either
keep working with projects I have contributed to or find new ones, but
I'm not going to stick with LIRC because I don't get answers on this
list.

I've seen emails like this on mailing lists before.  Usually they're
quite rude.  People find every way to blame the poster instead of
saying, "Hey, here's someone that could have added to the project with
code and cash.  What could WE have done differently so they're not
leaving in a huff?"  The answer is simple: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!  That's
all that was needed!

I'm doing you a favor!  Instead of just saying F--- You!  I'm
saying, "This is a problem.  I wanted to contribute, but instead, I'm
just spending money on a simple fix instead.  Here's what drove me
away."  I know I'm inconsequential in many ways, but I could have
contributed code and funds.  Sure, I know a few hundred isn't much for
a project that does the fancy stuff you guys do, but it wouldn't have
taken much for me to have contributed enthusiastically to LIRC instead
of deciding that those involved don't care enough about users and
newbies to make it worth my time to get involved.

My decision is made, you can criticize me all you want and call me
names, but the bottom line is all I wanted were some answers.  I've
never had a FOSS project prove so hard to join or work with or
contribute to or so reluctant to help a newbie with answers to his
questions that would help him get involved.

You can blame me, say I didn't ask the right questions, or say I didn't
search in the right pages, but a project like LIRC is complex and hard
to get up to speed with for some people.  I'm sure you'd rather take
the easy route and put it all on me than take any time to realize that
some simple actions on your part, as knowledgeable list members, would
have made a big difference.  When people here have the chance to help
someone new, it's clear they don't have the time for them.

So it's only appropriate a new person, eager to help, should decide he
doesn't have the time for LIRC.

Thank you very much for the lack of answers and help.  My remote arrives
tomorrow and there's no reason for me to ever give a damn about LIRC
and fighting to get answers here again.  I'm sorry it had to be that
way.

Hal

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[dj_gerbil]

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Hal. I've always been a fan of open
source and the whole idea of working together to create a good operating
system and keeping the money out of Bill Gates pocket. But here we are, I
too have a problem with LIRC, I've asked for help and all I get is 1 answer
asking me something which even an idiot would have tried before asking!!!
Now I know for a fact that I can use a Windoze OS and get my remote to do
what I want and VLC to play my files, so why am I still using a Linux distro
and why am I still fighting to get LIRC to work?? Answer, I'm not. I'm going
back to Windoze.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hal Vaughan [mailto:hal@...]
Sent: 22 September 2008 18:05
To: lirc-list@...
Subject: Thank You Very Much

Recently I set up a home theater system as a reward to myself for building
up a small business to the point where it runs itself.  The downside was
having 5 remote controls to it.  I considered an all-in-one, but didn't like
the prices and thought they were just WAY overpriced.  Then I remembered
LIRC.

I've worked with open source projects before and have a strong commitment to
FOSS.  I could not have even started my business without FOSS and the only
software I use in my business that isn't FOSS is Java (well some would now
consider Java FOSS, some would not).  Along the way I've contributed to FOSS
projects along the way and I've done a few of my own.  One is a control
program for an HD radio that can connect by either the serial port or USB,
so that is not unlike LIRC in some ways.

Since I got past my startup troubles with the business, when I find FOSS
programs that I can use and contribute to, I like to help with code when I
can and at the very least, figure out how much that project saved me and
contribute at least half of that.  (Sometimes it saves me $500, so I can
contribute that, sometimes it saves me a few grand, so I may only contribute
half of that total.)  Bottom line: I LIKE TO SUPPORT FOSS.  I've even made
sure I have certain FOSS projects in my trust/will so I can help them even
after I'm pushing up daisies.

I would rather take a few days to write a program to add what I need to a
FOSS project than buy something off the shelf, be it hardware or software.

When I looked at universal remotes, I figured it'd be at least $300 to get
one that behaved like I wanted.  Instead of wasting time browsing through
manuals for remotes, I figured I'd use my entertainment box with LIRC and
setup my own remote.

I won't be doing that anymore.  I had a neat and simple Perl app that I
could run through ssh on my Nokia 770.  It would, when done, have a number
of different tab panes and on each tab pane the user could define the size
and placement of their buttons, along with the text or icon to use on the
button and also define what remote functions that button would provide.
Unlike most universal remotes, it would not require selecting the component
to send commands.  The user could have the buttons for commands they use
most often on one tab pane and use them no matter which component they
controlled.

To do that I needed help from people in  the LIRC project or on this mailing
list.  I've been trying to work out what I can, but sometimes it takes me a
while to catch on, due in part to a learning disability.

My first request for help from the project went unanswered for over a week.
I've been on many FOSS mailing lists and when I've seen that, the original
sender often says, "So are you guys going to help or is this a private
club?"  Usually they're ruder than that and everyone says, "If you were nice
to us, we'd be more likely to help," but the irony is that when they were
nice, they were ignored.  When they were rude, they got their help.

Why?

I don't know.  I don't care.  My first request went a week without a
response.  Then I ask what's wrong and I do get a response that includes
some useful info, but when I asked about recommendations for
*transceivers* people have used with LIRC that have done well, I get a
suggestion for a remote -- not at all what I need and from the context of my
email, I think that was clear.

So I go out and buy a transceiver, one that looks good, the maker is good at
responding to me when I ask questions.  Unlike on this list, when I ask him
a question I get an answer.  I order the USB-UIRT, which I think is a good
product then find out there's a bug in the Linux kernel modules that create
problems with this product.  Okay, if I had Googled the correct words, I
could have found it, but it didn't turn up in my research and there was
nothing on the LIRC site to indicate any problem with this device.

Again I ask for help, specifically if there is a way to specify the device
and driver in a conf file.  I get an answer which includes, "Most of the
answer to your questions are found in the irsend manpage."  Actually, that
is not true, the irsend manpage is quite sparse.  There are some good
points, but at the end I'm still not sure just how I can specify the device
and driver in a conf file.

I blunder through, install a new version of Ubuntu on a system I was soon
going to put away anyway.  I test it out and find that the codes I get when
trying to define a remote are not the same as the ones in that remote's
definition on the LIRC project.  I've asked about that and I'm still waiting
for an answer.

Then last night I ask about delays I see with irsend.  Okay, less than
24 hours, but I don't expect any help on that, since it seems S.O.P. on this
list.

I have at least 5 remotes, including the one kept in my study, that don't
seem to be in your database or, if they are, not all the buttons are
included.  I was going to create conf files and upload them.  I was working
on the GUI for a Perl frontend for Internet tablets like my N770.  And, when
all was done and I got it working, as always, I was going to contribute to
LIRC financially.

Okay, I'm just one person.  I know you guys are pretty important.  
You've got stuff included in the Linux kernel, you're more worried about the
deep and fascinating technical issues than helping a newbie who wants to
learn and later contribute.  I'm just one person.

But I'm no longer a person who has anywhere near a positive thought in my
head about LIRC.  Instead of contributing, I just called Crutchfield,
ordered two remotes and the blaster that comes with them for about $210
including shipping.  I won't need to use my Internet tablet now and won't
need LIRC.

I don't mind wading through things to get a program written.  Swimming
upstream and fighting to get the info you need is part of programming.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to fight a bunch of people on a mailing list
who I know have the answers I need but just don't have the time, effort, or
courtesy, to answer questions from a newbie.  I've got other things to do in
my life.  I have a yard I like working in, I have woodworking projects to
do, I'm an award winning competitive tango dancer who needs to practice, and
I have scripts to write for a small production company I'm starting.  

I don't have time to fight you, this group, for answers if I'm going to do
any coding.  I have too many other things to do.  I'll just either keep
working with projects I have contributed to or find new ones, but I'm not
going to stick with LIRC because I don't get answers on this list.

I've seen emails like this on mailing lists before.  Usually they're quite
rude.  People find every way to blame the poster instead of saying, "Hey,
here's someone that could have added to the project with code and cash.
What could WE have done differently so they're not leaving in a huff?"  The
answer is simple: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!  That's all that was needed!

I'm doing you a favor!  Instead of just saying F--- You!  I'm saying, "This
is a problem.  I wanted to contribute, but instead, I'm just spending money
on a simple fix instead.  Here's what drove me away."  I know I'm
inconsequential in many ways, but I could have contributed code and funds.
Sure, I know a few hundred isn't much for a project that does the fancy
stuff you guys do, but it wouldn't have taken much for me to have
contributed enthusiastically to LIRC instead of deciding that those involved
don't care enough about users and newbies to make it worth my time to get
involved.

My decision is made, you can criticize me all you want and call me names,
but the bottom line is all I wanted were some answers.  I've never had a
FOSS project prove so hard to join or work with or contribute to or so
reluctant to help a newbie with answers to his questions that would help him
get involved.

You can blame me, say I didn't ask the right questions, or say I didn't
search in the right pages, but a project like LIRC is complex and hard to
get up to speed with for some people.  I'm sure you'd rather take the easy
route and put it all on me than take any time to realize that some simple
actions on your part, as knowledgeable list members, would have made a big
difference.  When people here have the chance to help someone new, it's
clear they don't have the time for them.

So it's only appropriate a new person, eager to help, should decide he
doesn't have the time for LIRC.

Thank you very much for the lack of answers and help.  My remote arrives
tomorrow and there's no reason for me to ever give a damn about LIRC and
fighting to get answers here again.  I'm sorry it had to be that way.

Hal

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
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world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/


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This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
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http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/

[Laurent Marchal-3]

Wouahou what a mail !

You have a lot of hate in you !

I am not a LIRC developer, and i don't know what was your question, but
i remember when i was a linux newbie, i went to IRC asking some
"newbies" questions and people say  "look in doc" or "man this, man
that"... why they did not help me ? I feel they was rude to me. But
after some years i understand that i have to read documentation and
search by myself before asking questions, it's the way you learn.

Maybe you have read all docs and your question is right.

I just subscribed this list to ask a question about the bluetooth "bte"
driver, i found nothing in the documentation, and no one answer to me.
With a response i could also help all people having a PS3 bluetooth remote.

But i understand that people answer when they know and when they have
time to.
Who are you to demand something ? You know that nobody will feel
concerned by this message ?

I think you are another person who subscribe to ask, and will never help
in returned.


Hal Vaughan wrote:

> Recently I set up a home theater system as a reward to myself for
> building up a small business to the point where it runs itself.  The
> downside was having 5 remote controls to it.  I considered an
> all-in-one, but didn't like the prices and thought they were just WAY
> overpriced.  Then I remembered LIRC.
>
> I've worked with open source projects before and have a strong
> commitment to FOSS.  I could not have even started my business without
> FOSS and the only software I use in my business that isn't FOSS is Java
> (well some would now consider Java FOSS, some would not).  Along the
> way I've contributed to FOSS projects along the way and I've done a few
> of my own.  One is a control program for an HD radio that can connect
> by either the serial port or USB, so that is not unlike LIRC in some
> ways.
>
> Since I got past my startup troubles with the business, when I find FOSS
> programs that I can use and contribute to, I like to help with code
> when I can and at the very least, figure out how much that project
> saved me and contribute at least half of that.  (Sometimes it saves me
> $500, so I can contribute that, sometimes it saves me a few grand, so I
> may only contribute half of that total.)  Bottom line: I LIKE TO
> SUPPORT FOSS.  I've even made sure I have certain FOSS projects in my
> trust/will so I can help them even after I'm pushing up daisies.
>
> I would rather take a few days to write a program to add what I need to
> a FOSS project than buy something off the shelf, be it hardware or
> software.
>
> When I looked at universal remotes, I figured it'd be at least $300 to
> get one that behaved like I wanted.  Instead of wasting time browsing
> through manuals for remotes, I figured I'd use my entertainment box
> with LIRC and setup my own remote.
>
> I won't be doing that anymore.  I had a neat and simple Perl app that I
> could run through ssh on my Nokia 770.  It would, when done, have a
> number of different tab panes and on each tab pane the user could
> define the size and placement of their buttons, along with the text or
> icon to use on the button and also define what remote functions that
> button would provide.  Unlike most universal remotes, it would not
> require selecting the component to send commands.  The user could have
> the buttons for commands they use most often on one tab pane and use
> them no matter which component they controlled.
>
> To do that I needed help from people in  the LIRC project or on this
> mailing list.  I've been trying to work out what I can, but sometimes
> it takes me a while to catch on, due in part to a learning disability.
>
> My first request for help from the project went unanswered for over a
> week.  I've been on many FOSS mailing lists and when I've seen that,
> the original sender often says, "So are you guys going to help or is
> this a private club?"  Usually they're ruder than that and everyone
> says, "If you were nice to us, we'd be more likely to help," but the
> irony is that when they were nice, they were ignored.  When they were
> rude, they got their help.
>
> Why?
>
> I don't know.  I don't care.  My first request went a week without a
> response.  Then I ask what's wrong and I do get a response that
> includes some useful info, but when I asked about recommendations for
> *transceivers* people have used with LIRC that have done well, I get a
> suggestion for a remote -- not at all what I need and from the context
> of my email, I think that was clear.
>
> So I go out and buy a transceiver, one that looks good, the maker is
> good at responding to me when I ask questions.  Unlike on this list,
> when I ask him a question I get an answer.  I order the USB-UIRT, which
> I think is a good product then find out there's a bug in the Linux
> kernel modules that create problems with this product.  Okay, if I had
> Googled the correct words, I could have found it, but it didn't turn up
> in my research and there was nothing on the LIRC site to indicate any
> problem with this device.
>
> Again I ask for help, specifically if there is a way to specify the
> device and driver in a conf file.  I get an answer which
> includes, "Most of the answer to your questions are found in the irsend
> manpage."  Actually, that is not true, the irsend manpage is quite
> sparse.  There are some good points, but at the end I'm still not sure
> just how I can specify the device and driver in a conf file.
>
> I blunder through, install a new version of Ubuntu on a system I was
> soon going to put away anyway.  I test it out and find that the codes I
> get when trying to define a remote are not the same as the ones in that
> remote's definition on the LIRC project.  I've asked about that and I'm
> still waiting for an answer.
>
> Then last night I ask about delays I see with irsend.  Okay, less than
> 24 hours, but I don't expect any help on that, since it seems S.O.P. on
> this list.
>
> I have at least 5 remotes, including the one kept in my study, that
> don't seem to be in your database or, if they are, not all the buttons
> are included.  I was going to create conf files and upload them.  I was
> working on the GUI for a Perl frontend for Internet tablets like my
> N770.  And, when all was done and I got it working, as always, I was
> going to contribute to LIRC financially.
>
> Okay, I'm just one person.  I know you guys are pretty important.  
> You've got stuff included in the Linux kernel, you're more worried
> about the deep and fascinating technical issues than helping a newbie
> who wants to learn and later contribute.  I'm just one person.
>
> But I'm no longer a person who has anywhere near a positive thought in
> my head about LIRC.  Instead of contributing, I just called
> Crutchfield, ordered two remotes and the blaster that comes with them
> for about $210 including shipping.  I won't need to use my Internet
> tablet now and won't need LIRC.
>
> I don't mind wading through things to get a program written.  Swimming
> upstream and fighting to get the info you need is part of programming.
>
> But I'll be damned if I'm going to fight a bunch of people on a mailing
> list who I know have the answers I need but just don't have the time,
> effort, or courtesy, to answer questions from a newbie.  I've got other
> things to do in my life.  I have a yard I like working in, I have
> woodworking projects to do, I'm an award winning competitive tango
> dancer who needs to practice, and I have scripts to write for a small
> production company I'm starting.  
>
> I don't have time to fight you, this group, for answers if I'm going to
> do any coding.  I have too many other things to do.  I'll just either
> keep working with projects I have contributed to or find new ones, but
> I'm not going to stick with LIRC because I don't get answers on this
> list.
>
> I've seen emails like this on mailing lists before.  Usually they're
> quite rude.  People find every way to blame the poster instead of
> saying, "Hey, here's someone that could have added to the project with
> code and cash.  What could WE have done differently so they're not
> leaving in a huff?"  The answer is simple: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!  That's
> all that was needed!
>
> I'm doing you a favor!  Instead of just saying F--- You!  I'm
> saying, "This is a problem.  I wanted to contribute, but instead, I'm
> just spending money on a simple fix instead.  Here's what drove me
> away."  I know I'm inconsequential in many ways, but I could have
> contributed code and funds.  Sure, I know a few hundred isn't much for
> a project that does the fancy stuff you guys do, but it wouldn't have
> taken much for me to have contributed enthusiastically to LIRC instead
> of deciding that those involved don't care enough about users and
> newbies to make it worth my time to get involved.
>
> My decision is made, you can criticize me all you want and call me
> names, but the bottom line is all I wanted were some answers.  I've
> never had a FOSS project prove so hard to join or work with or
> contribute to or so reluctant to help a newbie with answers to his
> questions that would help him get involved.
>
> You can blame me, say I didn't ask the right questions, or say I didn't
> search in the right pages, but a project like LIRC is complex and hard
> to get up to speed with for some people.  I'm sure you'd rather take
> the easy route and put it all on me than take any time to realize that
> some simple actions on your part, as knowledgeable list members, would
> have made a big difference.  When people here have the chance to help
> someone new, it's clear they don't have the time for them.
>
> So it's only appropriate a new person, eager to help, should decide he
> doesn't have the time for LIRC.
>
> Thank you very much for the lack of answers and help.  My remote arrives
> tomorrow and there's no reason for me to ever give a damn about LIRC
> and fighting to get answers here again.  I'm sorry it had to be that
> way.
>
> Hal
>
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>  

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[Laurent Marchal-3]

It's not a war ! Windows, Bill, money... who cares ?
You don't understand that nobody will miss you ?

It's the way OSS work, something is not working, make it work and share.
You can't blame someone because nobody is working on YOUR problem.

so please do see Bill and tell him about your problems.

Chris Grove wrote:

> I'm sorry but I have to agree with Hal. I've always been a fan of open
> source and the whole idea of working together to create a good operating
> system and keeping the money out of Bill Gates pocket. But here we are, I
> too have a problem with LIRC, I've asked for help and all I get is 1 answer
> asking me something which even an idiot would have tried before asking!!!
> Now I know for a fact that I can use a Windoze OS and get my remote to do
> what I want and VLC to play my files, so why am I still using a Linux distro
> and why am I still fighting to get LIRC to work?? Answer, I'm not. I'm going
> back to Windoze.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hal Vaughan [mailto:hal@...]
> Sent: 22 September 2008 18:05
> To: lirc-list@...
> Subject: Thank You Very Much
>
> Recently I set up a home theater system as a reward to myself for building
> up a small business to the point where it runs itself.  The downside was
> having 5 remote controls to it.  I considered an all-in-one, but didn't like
> the prices and thought they were just WAY overpriced.  Then I remembered
> LIRC.
>
> I've worked with open source projects before and have a strong commitment to
> FOSS.  I could not have even started my business without FOSS and the only
> software I use in my business that isn't FOSS is Java (well some would now
> consider Java FOSS, some would not).  Along the way I've contributed to FOSS
> projects along the way and I've done a few of my own.  One is a control
> program for an HD radio that can connect by either the serial port or USB,
> so that is not unlike LIRC in some ways.
>
> Since I got past my startup troubles with the business, when I find FOSS
> programs that I can use and contribute to, I like to help with code when I
> can and at the very least, figure out how much that project saved me and
> contribute at least half of that.  (Sometimes it saves me $500, so I can
> contribute that, sometimes it saves me a few grand, so I may only contribute
> half of that total.)  Bottom line: I LIKE TO SUPPORT FOSS.  I've even made
> sure I have certain FOSS projects in my trust/will so I can help them even
> after I'm pushing up daisies.
>
> I would rather take a few days to write a program to add what I need to a
> FOSS project than buy something off the shelf, be it hardware or software.
>
> When I looked at universal remotes, I figured it'd be at least $300 to get
> one that behaved like I wanted.  Instead of wasting time browsing through
> manuals for remotes, I figured I'd use my entertainment box with LIRC and
> setup my own remote.
>
> I won't be doing that anymore.  I had a neat and simple Perl app that I
> could run through ssh on my Nokia 770.  It would, when done, have a number
> of different tab panes and on each tab pane the user could define the size
> and placement of their buttons, along with the text or icon to use on the
> button and also define what remote functions that button would provide.
> Unlike most universal remotes, it would not require selecting the component
> to send commands.  The user could have the buttons for commands they use
> most often on one tab pane and use them no matter which component they
> controlled.
>
> To do that I needed help from people in  the LIRC project or on this mailing
> list.  I've been trying to work out what I can, but sometimes it takes me a
> while to catch on, due in part to a learning disability.
>
> My first request for help from the project went unanswered for over a week.
> I've been on many FOSS mailing lists and when I've seen that, the original
> sender often says, "So are you guys going to help or is this a private
> club?"  Usually they're ruder than that and everyone says, "If you were nice
> to us, we'd be more likely to help," but the irony is that when they were
> nice, they were ignored.  When they were rude, they got their help.
>
> Why?
>
> I don't know.  I don't care.  My first request went a week without a
> response.  Then I ask what's wrong and I do get a response that includes
> some useful info, but when I asked about recommendations for
> *transceivers* people have used with LIRC that have done well, I get a
> suggestion for a remote -- not at all what I need and from the context of my
> email, I think that was clear.
>
> So I go out and buy a transceiver, one that looks good, the maker is good at
> responding to me when I ask questions.  Unlike on this list, when I ask him
> a question I get an answer.  I order the USB-UIRT, which I think is a good
> product then find out there's a bug in the Linux kernel modules that create
> problems with this product.  Okay, if I had Googled the correct words, I
> could have found it, but it didn't turn up in my research and there was
> nothing on the LIRC site to indicate any problem with this device.
>
> Again I ask for help, specifically if there is a way to specify the device
> and driver in a conf file.  I get an answer which includes, "Most of the
> answer to your questions are found in the irsend manpage."  Actually, that
> is not true, the irsend manpage is quite sparse.  There are some good
> points, but at the end I'm still not sure just how I can specify the device
> and driver in a conf file.
>
> I blunder through, install a new version of Ubuntu on a system I was soon
> going to put away anyway.  I test it out and find that the codes I get when
> trying to define a remote are not the same as the ones in that remote's
> definition on the LIRC project.  I've asked about that and I'm still waiting
> for an answer.
>
> Then last night I ask about delays I see with irsend.  Okay, less than
> 24 hours, but I don't expect any help on that, since it seems S.O.P. on this
> list.
>
> I have at least 5 remotes, including the one kept in my study, that don't
> seem to be in your database or, if they are, not all the buttons are
> included.  I was going to create conf files and upload them.  I was working
> on the GUI for a Perl frontend for Internet tablets like my N770.  And, when
> all was done and I got it working, as always, I was going to contribute to
> LIRC financially.
>
> Okay, I'm just one person.  I know you guys are pretty important.  
> You've got stuff included in the Linux kernel, you're more worried about the
> deep and fascinating technical issues than helping a newbie who wants to
> learn and later contribute.  I'm just one person.
>
> But I'm no longer a person who has anywhere near a positive thought in my
> head about LIRC.  Instead of contributing, I just called Crutchfield,
> ordered two remotes and the blaster that comes with them for about $210
> including shipping.  I won't need to use my Internet tablet now and won't
> need LIRC.
>
> I don't mind wading through things to get a program written.  Swimming
> upstream and fighting to get the info you need is part of programming.
>
> But I'll be damned if I'm going to fight a bunch of people on a mailing list
> who I know have the answers I need but just don't have the time, effort, or
> courtesy, to answer questions from a newbie.  I've got other things to do in
> my life.  I have a yard I like working in, I have woodworking projects to
> do, I'm an award winning competitive tango dancer who needs to practice, and
> I have scripts to write for a small production company I'm starting.  
>
> I don't have time to fight you, this group, for answers if I'm going to do
> any coding.  I have too many other things to do.  I'll just either keep
> working with projects I have contributed to or find new ones, but I'm not
> going to stick with LIRC because I don't get answers on this list.
>
> I've seen emails like this on mailing lists before.  Usually they're quite
> rude.  People find every way to blame the poster instead of saying, "Hey,
> here's someone that could have added to the project with code and cash.
> What could WE have done differently so they're not leaving in a huff?"  The
> answer is simple: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!  That's all that was needed!
>
> I'm doing you a favor!  Instead of just saying F--- You!  I'm saying, "This
> is a problem.  I wanted to contribute, but instead, I'm just spending money
> on a simple fix instead.  Here's what drove me away."  I know I'm
> inconsequential in many ways, but I could have contributed code and funds.
> Sure, I know a few hundred isn't much for a project that does the fancy
> stuff you guys do, but it wouldn't have taken much for me to have
> contributed enthusiastically to LIRC instead of deciding that those involved
> don't care enough about users and newbies to make it worth my time to get
> involved.
>
> My decision is made, you can criticize me all you want and call me names,
> but the bottom line is all I wanted were some answers.  I've never had a
> FOSS project prove so hard to join or work with or contribute to or so
> reluctant to help a newbie with answers to his questions that would help him
> get involved.
>
> You can blame me, say I didn't ask the right questions, or say I didn't
> search in the right pages, but a project like LIRC is complex and hard to
> get up to speed with for some people.  I'm sure you'd rather take the easy
> route and put it all on me than take any time to realize that some simple
> actions on your part, as knowledgeable list members, would have made a big
> difference.  When people here have the chance to help someone new, it's
> clear they don't have the time for them.
>
> So it's only appropriate a new person, eager to help, should decide he
> doesn't have the time for LIRC.
>
> Thank you very much for the lack of answers and help.  My remote arrives
> tomorrow and there's no reason for me to ever give a damn about LIRC and
> fighting to get answers here again.  I'm sorry it had to be that way.
>
> Hal
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
> prizes Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
> world http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>  

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[Leslie P. Polzer-2]

> But here we are, I too have a problem with LIRC, I've asked for
> help and all I get is 1 answer asking me something which even
> an idiot would have tried before asking!!!

I'm sure everyone is trying to be helpful, but sometimes people just
don't know the answer to a question. Same as with "professional"
tech support, only the latter one's range of answers is often much
narrower and not at all tailored to your problem.

It's too bad if you can't get lirc to work (I'm still struggling, too),
and if that's a reason for you to switch operating systems, well why
not.

But please try to be nice even in this case. There are people on
the other end of the line.

  Leslie

--
LinkedIn Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/polzer
Xing Profile: https://www.xing.com/profile/LeslieP_Polzer
Blog: http://blog.viridian-project.de/


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[Yan Seiner]

On Mon, September 22, 2008 11:34 am, Chris Grove wrote:

> I'm sorry but I have to agree with Hal. I've always been a fan of open
> source and the whole idea of working together to create a good operating
> system and keeping the money out of Bill Gates pocket. But here we are, I
> too have a problem with LIRC, I've asked for help and all I get is 1
> answer
> asking me something which even an idiot would have tried before asking!!!
> Now I know for a fact that I can use a Windoze OS and get my remote to do
> what I want and VLC to play my files, so why am I still using a Linux
> distro
> and why am I still fighting to get LIRC to work?? Answer, I'm not. I'm
> going
> back to Windoze.
>

Did it occurr to either of you that no one subscribed to this list at the
moment may have an answer to your question?

Or perhaps that you should investigate further on your own?

I've got a pet project as well.  One that requires a lot of time and
expertise.  I have little enough of both.  But over the last year I've
gotten to the point where I am in contact with the core devs on this
particular project, I do their testing, I provide bug reports, and slowly,
ever so slowly I make progress.  Yesterday for the first time after a year
of work I finally got my project to work the right way.  Not the ugly
hacks I've used in the past.  Soon I hope to have the full solution; then
I have to wait for the distros to catch up and then I can just apt-get
instead of hacking up config files and building things by hand.

So yes, it takes time.  No one here is paid to support you.  Heck, no one
may be interested in your problem enough to answer.  No one here may have
enough time to answer your email....

So please, it's one of those things.  You can email the list, but you may
not get an answer.  So it goes.  Figure it out yourself, or at least
identify the problem enough to make it solvable.  Or to make it
interesting.



--
  o__
  ,>/'_          o__
  (_)\(_)        ,>/'_        o__
Yan Seiner      (_)\(_)       ,>/'_     o__
       Personal Trainer      (_)\(_)    ,>/'_        o__
             Professional Engineer     (_)\(_)       ,>/'_
Who says engineers have to be pencil necked geeks?  (_)\(_)

As long as nobody gets hurt, a decent explosion livens up any experiment.



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[Jake Briggs]

I think the issue you are having is that you didn't ask the right
questions, nor search in the right pages. A project like LIRC is complex
and hard for everyone. You have no one to blame for yourself for your
issues.

Jake


Hal Vaughan wrote:

> Recently I set up a home theater system as a reward to myself for
> building up a small business to the point where it runs itself.  The
> downside was having 5 remote controls to it.  I considered an
> all-in-one, but didn't like the prices and thought they were just WAY
> overpriced.  Then I remembered LIRC.
>
> I've worked with open source projects before and have a strong
> commitment to FOSS.  I could not have even started my business without
> FOSS and the only software I use in my business that isn't FOSS is Java
> (well some would now consider Java FOSS, some would not).  Along the
> way I've contributed to FOSS projects along the way and I've done a few
> of my own.  One is a control program for an HD radio that can connect
> by either the serial port or USB, so that is not unlike LIRC in some
> ways.
>
> Since I got past my startup troubles with the business, when I find FOSS
> programs that I can use and contribute to, I like to help with code
> when I can and at the very least, figure out how much that project
> saved me and contribute at least half of that.  (Sometimes it saves me
> $500, so I can contribute that, sometimes it saves me a few grand, so I
> may only contribute half of that total.)  Bottom line: I LIKE TO
> SUPPORT FOSS.  I've even made sure I have certain FOSS projects in my
> trust/will so I can help them even after I'm pushing up daisies.
>
> I would rather take a few days to write a program to add what I need to
> a FOSS project than buy something off the shelf, be it hardware or
> software.
>
> When I looked at universal remotes, I figured it'd be at least $300 to
> get one that behaved like I wanted.  Instead of wasting time browsing
> through manuals for remotes, I figured I'd use my entertainment box
> with LIRC and setup my own remote.
>
> I won't be doing that anymore.  I had a neat and simple Perl app that I
> could run through ssh on my Nokia 770.  It would, when done, have a
> number of different tab panes and on each tab pane the user could
> define the size and placement of their buttons, along with the text or
> icon to use on the button and also define what remote functions that
> button would provide.  Unlike most universal remotes, it would not
> require selecting the component to send commands.  The user could have
> the buttons for commands they use most often on one tab pane and use
> them no matter which component they controlled.
>
> To do that I needed help from people in  the LIRC project or on this
> mailing list.  I've been trying to work out what I can, but sometimes
> it takes me a while to catch on, due in part to a learning disability.
>
> My first request for help from the project went unanswered for over a
> week.  I've been on many FOSS mailing lists and when I've seen that,
> the original sender often says, "So are you guys going to help or is
> this a private club?"  Usually they're ruder than that and everyone
> says, "If you were nice to us, we'd be more likely to help," but the
> irony is that when they were nice, they were ignored.  When they were
> rude, they got their help.
>
> Why?
>
> I don't know.  I don't care.  My first request went a week without a
> response.  Then I ask what's wrong and I do get a response that
> includes some useful info, but when I asked about recommendations for
> *transceivers* people have used with LIRC that have done well, I get a
> suggestion for a remote -- not at all what I need and from the context
> of my email, I think that was clear.
>
> So I go out and buy a transceiver, one that looks good, the maker is
> good at responding to me when I ask questions.  Unlike on this list,
> when I ask him a question I get an answer.  I order the USB-UIRT, which
> I think is a good product then find out there's a bug in the Linux
> kernel modules that create problems with this product.  Okay, if I had
> Googled the correct words, I could have found it, but it didn't turn up
> in my research and there was nothing on the LIRC site to indicate any
> problem with this device.
>
> Again I ask for help, specifically if there is a way to specify the
> device and driver in a conf file.  I get an answer which
> includes, "Most of the answer to your questions are found in the irsend
> manpage."  Actually, that is not true, the irsend manpage is quite
> sparse.  There are some good points, but at the end I'm still not sure
> just how I can specify the device and driver in a conf file.
>
> I blunder through, install a new version of Ubuntu on a system I was
> soon going to put away anyway.  I test it out and find that the codes I
> get when trying to define a remote are not the same as the ones in that
> remote's definition on the LIRC project.  I've asked about that and I'm
> still waiting for an answer.
>
> Then last night I ask about delays I see with irsend.  Okay, less than
> 24 hours, but I don't expect any help on that, since it seems S.O.P. on
> this list.
>
> I have at least 5 remotes, including the one kept in my study, that
> don't seem to be in your database or, if they are, not all the buttons
> are included.  I was going to create conf files and upload them.  I was
> working on the GUI for a Perl frontend for Internet tablets like my
> N770.  And, when all was done and I got it working, as always, I was
> going to contribute to LIRC financially.
>
> Okay, I'm just one person.  I know you guys are pretty important.  
> You've got stuff included in the Linux kernel, you're more worried
> about the deep and fascinating technical issues than helping a newbie
> who wants to learn and later contribute.  I'm just one person.
>
> But I'm no longer a person who has anywhere near a positive thought in
> my head about LIRC.  Instead of contributing, I just called
> Crutchfield, ordered two remotes and the blaster that comes with them
> for about $210 including shipping.  I won't need to use my Internet
> tablet now and won't need LIRC.
>
> I don't mind wading through things to get a program written.  Swimming
> upstream and fighting to get the info you need is part of programming.
>
> But I'll be damned if I'm going to fight a bunch of people on a mailing
> list who I know have the answers I need but just don't have the time,
> effort, or courtesy, to answer questions from a newbie.  I've got other
> things to do in my life.  I have a yard I like working in, I have
> woodworking projects to do, I'm an award winning competitive tango
> dancer who needs to practice, and I have scripts to write for a small
> production company I'm starting.  
>
> I don't have time to fight you, this group, for answers if I'm going to
> do any coding.  I have too many other things to do.  I'll just either
> keep working with projects I have contributed to or find new ones, but
> I'm not going to stick with LIRC because I don't get answers on this
> list.
>
> I've seen emails like this on mailing lists before.  Usually they're
> quite rude.  People find every way to blame the poster instead of
> saying, "Hey, here's someone that could have added to the project with
> code and cash.  What could WE have done differently so they're not
> leaving in a huff?"  The answer is simple: ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!  That's
> all that was needed!
>
> I'm doing you a favor!  Instead of just saying F--- You!  I'm
> saying, "This is a problem.  I wanted to contribute, but instead, I'm
> just spending money on a simple fix instead.  Here's what drove me
> away."  I know I'm inconsequential in many ways, but I could have
> contributed code and funds.  Sure, I know a few hundred isn't much for
> a project that does the fancy stuff you guys do, but it wouldn't have
> taken much for me to have contributed enthusiastically to LIRC instead
> of deciding that those involved don't care enough about users and
> newbies to make it worth my time to get involved.
>
> My decision is made, you can criticize me all you want and call me
> names, but the bottom line is all I wanted were some answers.  I've
> never had a FOSS project prove so hard to join or work with or
> contribute to or so reluctant to help a newbie with answers to his
> questions that would help him get involved.
>
> You can blame me, say I didn't ask the right questions, or say I didn't
> search in the right pages, but a project like LIRC is complex and hard
> to get up to speed with for some people.  I'm sure you'd rather take
> the easy route and put it all on me than take any time to realize that
> some simple actions on your part, as knowledgeable list members, would
> have made a big difference.  When people here have the chance to help
> someone new, it's clear they don't have the time for them.
>
> So it's only appropriate a new person, eager to help, should decide he
> doesn't have the time for LIRC.
>
> Thank you very much for the lack of answers and help.  My remote arrives
> tomorrow and there's no reason for me to ever give a damn about LIRC
> and fighting to get answers here again.  I'm sorry it had to be that
> way.
>
> Hal
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>  

--
Jacob Briggs
Systems Engineer

Core Technology Limited
Level 1, NZX Centre
11 Cable Street
Wellington
Phone [phone]

--

Private Object doAnythingConceivable(String whatToDo, Object whatToDoItWith) { .....



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[Jenks, Mark]

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jake Briggs [mailto:jakbri@...]
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 4:06 PM
> To: hal@...
> Cc: lirc-list@...
> Subject: Re: Thank You Very Much
>
> I think the issue you are having is that you didn't ask the right
> questions, nor search in the right pages. A project like LIRC
> is complex
> and hard for everyone. You have no one to blame for yourself for your
> issues.
>
> Jake

Top posting makes baby Jesus cry...  You don't read bottom up, why post
that way.    ;)

I don't think it is a fair comment to throw out here.   People that show
up here, don't always have a good technological standpoint about how
things get solved.  They aren't developers, or people that know the in
and out workings of things.  They just want them to work.   Quick
install and it just works.

There are many things that have really bothered me over the last 20
years out in Usenet.   If people don't know what they are talking about,
but are still looking for help, there is an elitist attitude of, why
should I help you if you don't help yourself.  While in most cases it's
true because they haven't tried, there are cases where people just don't
know better.  Point them to the FAQs on how Usenet works or at least try
and help them in the right direction to ask the right question or even
ask them for more information.

Not every list is the same, some are a very helpful user community
(mythtv) and want to help people to solve issues, and others like this
are just way to straight forward with their comments. (No finger
pointing, but you know who you are)  I know there is no dev list here,
or even a huge following of lirc.   It a mix here of dev/users, and from
my reading here, it can be pretty pointed and harsh.  Yes, there are
people that help people.  But a quick one liner here and there to check
this or that because you did it wrong isn't helping anyone.

I have worked with a few awesome developers of the years, and am
currently working with about 2 right now solving issues, either with
bugs or code that was not developed for the hardware that I am using.
If I have a problem, I have no problem with with them to solve the issue
at hand.  It's the give and take that is needed.

I understand that people don't always have time to sit and watch the
lists and it is driven by developers or people interested in the project
at the time, but if people are critiquing people comments, it just
drives people away from the project itself.

Lirc is very needed for linux and will be around for along time to come,
but like all things, there is a learning curve on both side to get
people to work with, understand each others issues.   It's 100%
volunteer supported, and I appreciate all of it.  But not everyone that
comes in the door knows that they want, or how to ask for it.

<rant off>

-Mark


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[Jake Briggs]

Jenks, Mark wrote:

>  
>
>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jake Briggs [mailto:jakbri@...]
>> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 4:06 PM
>> To: hal@...
>> Cc: lirc-list@...
>> Subject: Re: Thank You Very Much
>>
>> I think the issue you are having is that you didn't ask the right
>> questions, nor search in the right pages. A project like LIRC
>> is complex
>> and hard for everyone. You have no one to blame for yourself for your
>> issues.
>>
>> Jake
>>    
>
> Top posting makes baby Jesus cry...  You don't read bottom up, why post
> that way.    ;)
>  

Because I enjoy making baby jesus cry ;) Mainly because I am lazy, and I
didn't think anyone would reply to my post which was essentially taking
the piss.

> I don't think it is a fair comment to throw out here.

The O.P. said "You can blame me, say I didn't ask the right questions,
or say I didn't search in the right pages, but a project like LIRC is
complex and hard to get up to speed with for some people". I just
thought it was funny that he hit the nail on the head in his own post.

> People that show up here, don't always have a good technological standpoint about how
> things get solved.  They aren't developers, or people that know the in
> and out workings of things.  They just want them to work.   Quick
> install and it just works.
>  

No one has any right to demand that from anyone in this project, since
its all volunteer. And the OP was demanding with his "screw you guys, I
am going home" post.
The O.P. found a solution in the end, and it wasn't LIRC.

> There are many things that have really bothered me over the last 20
> years out in Usenet.   If people don't know what they are talking about,
> but are still looking for help, there is an elitist attitude of, why
> should I help you if you don't help yourself.  While in most cases it's
> true because they haven't tried, there are cases where people just don't
> know better.  Point them to the FAQs on how Usenet works or at least try
> and help them in the right direction to ask the right question or even
> ask them for more information.
>
> Not every list is the same, some are a very helpful user community
> (mythtv) and want to help people to solve issues, and others like this
> are just way to straight forward with their comments. (No finger
> pointing, but you know who you are)  I know there is no dev list here,
> or even a huge following of lirc.   It a mix here of dev/users, and from
> my reading here, it can be pretty pointed and harsh.  Yes, there are
> people that help people.  But a quick one liner here and there to check
> this or that because you did it wrong isn't helping anyone.
>
> I have worked with a few awesome developers of the years, and am
> currently working with about 2 right now solving issues, either with
> bugs or code that was not developed for the hardware that I am using.
> If I have a problem, I have no problem with with them to solve the issue
> at hand.  It's the give and take that is needed.
>
> I understand that people don't always have time to sit and watch the
> lists and it is driven by developers or people interested in the project
> at the time, but if people are critiquing people comments, it just
> drives people away from the project itself.
>
> Lirc is very needed for linux and will be around for along time to come,
> but like all things, there is a learning curve on both side to get
> people to work with, understand each others issues.   It's 100%
> volunteer supported, and I appreciate all of it.  But not everyone that
> comes in the door knows that they want, or how to ask for it.
>  

I basically agree with everything you are saying. Its awesome when you
find a community that is very focused on the end user's needs. Its
fantastic when you find a solution to a problem you are having, and that
solution has a simple and robust install and configuration with
intelligent defaults. and fantastic documentation (I am not saying LIRC
has none of those btw).

But demanding those things and throwing your toys out of the cot when
they don't materialise and justifying your outrage with "I do my fair
share" arguments is unacceptable. At the end of the day, users of open
source software are not customers, they are participants.
Even if you have contributed to other projects (or, dare I say it the
project in question) financially or with your own time you can't really
demand much of anything except what you code yourself. Even then, you
may have to fork.

I haven't contributed a lick of code to LIRC, not even a remote
definition file, so I am a pretty selfish user. I have had my fair share
of battles getting it going, and my fair share of really really easy
successes. I in no way represent anyone on this list but myself, so my
opinions on proper open source protocol are my own.

--
Jacob Briggs
Systems Engineer

Core Technology Limited
Level 1, NZX Centre
11 Cable Street
Wellington
Phone [phone]

--

Private Object doAnythingConceivable(String whatToDo, Object whatToDoItWith) { .....



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