Temporary records: Create and delete or reuse?

[Bill Weale]

Is there any good reason to reuse "temporary" records instead of  
deleting them and creating them again as needed?

I'm setting up a type of log file to handle frequent changes to  
inventory records. The log file records would be created in triggers  
and a server method would use the log file records to edit the  
inventory records--the trigger methods won't have to be slowed down  
by queries or locked inventory records. Several thousand such changes  
a day would be taking place.

I've had a concern through the years, based upon no factual  
information, that continually creating and deleting records, in  
relatively large numbers, increased the vulnerability of the data  
file to corruption. Is there really any reason for that concern now?

Bill Weale




William W. Weale, III

Business Owners Support, LLC.

Operations Analysis
MIS Advising
Decision Support Systems

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[Jeffrey Kain]

I would hope a database could handle creating and deleting records
without corrupting itself... :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Weale
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 1:09 PM
To: 4D iNug Tech
Subject: Temporary records: Create and delete or reuse?

I've had a concern through the years, based upon no factual  
information, that continually creating and deleting records, in  
relatively large numbers, increased the vulnerability of the data  
file to corruption. Is there really any reason for that concern now?


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[Douglas von Roeder]

I don't know of a corruption issue but I think it's generally accepted that
creating and deleting a lot of records would create "holes" in the db which
would have an adverse impact on performance as 4D filled the holes when new
records were created.

To address the delete/don't delete question, I'd reuse the records in since
it's easy to do and it avoids the "data file holes" issue completely.

On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 10:08 AM, Bill Weale <bill.weale@...>wrote:

> Is there any good reason to reuse "temporary" records instead of deleting
> them and creating them again as needed?
>
> I'm setting up a type of log file to handle frequent changes to inventory
> records. The log file records would be created in triggers and a server
> method would use the log file records to edit the inventory records--the
> trigger methods won't have to be slowed down by queries or locked inventory
> records. Several thousand such changes a day would be taking place.
>
> I've had a concern through the years, based upon no factual information,
> that continually creating and deleting records, in relatively large numbers,
> increased the vulnerability of the data file to corruption. Is there really
> any reason for that concern now?
>
> Bill Weale
>
>
>
>
> William W. Weale, III
>
> Business Owners Support, LLC.
>
> Operations Analysis
> MIS Advising
> Decision Support Systems
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Server v11 SQL has arrived!
> Buy it NOW at http://store.4ddepot.com
>
> 4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:  http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
> Archive:  http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech
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>

--
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[Stephen J. Orth]

We re-use records on any tables where "large" amounts of creation/deletions
would occur.  We do this to avoid the holes and associated issues.


Steve


-----Original Message-----
From: 4d_tech-bounces@... [mailto:4d_tech-bounces@...] On
Behalf Of Douglas von Roeder
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 12:18 PM
To: 4D iNug Tech
Subject: Re: Temporary records: Create and delete or reuse?

I don't know of a corruption issue but I think it's generally accepted that
creating and deleting a lot of records would create "holes" in the db which
would have an adverse impact on performance as 4D filled the holes when new
records were created.

To address the delete/don't delete question, I'd reuse the records in since
it's easy to do and it avoids the "data file holes" issue completely.



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[Bill Weale]

Me too.

I'm just trying to protect it from the developer.

;-)


Bill


On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Jeffrey Kain wrote:

> I would hope a database could handle creating and deleting records
> without corrupting itself... :)
>
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[Chuck Miller-2]

I am not sure this will help wit empty places unless record being  
replaced is the same size as record that was deleted.  For example  
lets assume you mark a record for deletion that takes up 252  
characters. You then replace it with a record that takes 200  
characters, you are left with a hole of 52 characters. This is an  
example. If you want to make sure all records for a particular table  
are the same size, you can do so, by adding a blob, calculating size  
and the size blob accordingly. Ultimate would be a record whose size  
was a multiple of blocks.

Regards


Chuck
On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Stephen Orth wrote:

> We re-use records on any tables where "large" amounts of creation/
> deletions
> would occur.  We do this to avoid the holes and associated issues.
>
>
> Steve



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[Douglas von Roeder]

IIRC, "holes" refers to the entries in the address table rather than disk
fragmentation.

What I think you're referring to here is that 4D records are stored in
blocks of 128 bytes (I don't know about V11). And records are stored in
contiguous blocks so when you modify a record that requires an additional
block(s), 4D has to move the data to the new location and modify the address
table entries. And as we know, disk access is what "gets ya", especially on
OS X.

And if indexed fields have changed, that's even more work - remove the index
entries for the old data and create the new ones. And if you have to create
a new index page…


On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Chuck Miller <
cjmiller@...> wrote:

> I am not sure this will help wit empty places unless record being replaced
> is the same size as record that was deleted.  For example lets assume you
> mark a record for deletion that takes up 252 characters. You then replace it
> with a record that takes 200 characters, you are left with a hole of 52
> characters. This is an example. If you want to make sure all records for a
> particular table are the same size, you can do so, by adding a blob,
> calculating size and the size blob accordingly. Ultimate would be a record
> whose size was a multiple of blocks.
>
> Regards
>
>
> Chuck
> On Aug 7, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Stephen Orth wrote:
>
>  We re-use records on any tables where "large" amounts of
>> creation/deletions
>> would occur.  We do this to avoid the holes and associated issues.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck Miller                          Voice: [phone]
> Informed Solutions, Inc.              Fax: [phone]
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
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--
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[Alan Tilson-2]

Hello Bill,

I did a test a while back on 4D Server 2004 and deleting/creating new was
much faster than querying/changing/saving, several times faster according to
my memory...if speed is an issue.

Alan Tilson

On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Bill Weale <bill.weale@...>wrote:

> Is there any good reason to reuse "temporary" records instead of deleting
> them and creating them again as needed?
>
> I'm setting up a type of log file to handle frequent changes to inventory
> records. The log file records would be created in triggers and a server
> method would use the log file records to edit the inventory records--the
> trigger methods won't have to be slowed down by queries or locked inventory
> records. Several thousand such changes a day would be taking place.
>
> I've had a concern through the years, based upon no factual information,
> that continually creating and deleting records, in relatively large numbers,
> increased the vulnerability of the data file to corruption. Is there really
> any reason for that concern now?
>
> Bill Weale
>
>
>
>
> William W. Weale, III
>
> Business Owners Support, LLC.
>
> Operations Analysis
> MIS Advising
> Decision Support Systems
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Server v11 SQL has arrived!
> Buy it NOW at http://store.4ddepot.com
>
> 4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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[Peter Schumacher-2]

Hi,

yes, absolutly! And turn off "Complete delete" in the table properties.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen
[4D-Consulting.com]eK, Wiesbaden
Peter Schumacher
--------------------------------------------------------
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Tel.:      [phone] - Fax: [phone]
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----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Tilson
[mailto:alantilson@...]
To: 4D iNug Tech
[mailto:4d_tech@...]
Sent: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:43:21 +0200
Subject:
Re: Temporary records: Create and delete or reuse?

> Hello Bill,
>
> I did a test a while back on 4D Server 2004 and deleting/creating new was
> much faster than querying/changing/saving, several times faster according to
> my memory...if speed is an issue.
>
> Alan Tilson
>
> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Bill Weale <bill.weale@...>wrote:
>
> > Is there any good reason to reuse "temporary" records instead of deleting
> > them and creating them again as needed?
> >
> > I'm setting up a type of log file to handle frequent changes to inventory
> > records. The log file records would be created in triggers and a server
> > method would use the log file records to edit the inventory records--the
> > trigger methods won't have to be slowed down by queries or locked
> inventory
> > records. Several thousand such changes a day would be taking place.
> >
> > I've had a concern through the years, based upon no factual information,
> > that continually creating and deleting records, in relatively large
> numbers,
> > increased the vulnerability of the data file to corruption. Is there
> really
> > any reason for that concern now?
> >
> > Bill Weale
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > William W. Weale, III
> >
> > Business Owners Support, LLC.
> >
> > Operations Analysis
> > MIS Advising
> > Decision Support Systems
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > 4D Server v11 SQL has arrived!
> > Buy it NOW at http://store.4ddepot.com
> >
> > 4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech
> > Unsub:  mailto:4D_Tech-Unsubscribe@...
> > Post: mailto:4d_tech@...
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> >
> **********************************************************************
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[Douglas von Roeder]

Given a "clean" data file, that's expected. The issue that comes into play
that would take a significant effort to test is the impact of holes in the
address table.

Did you "address" that issue?


On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Alan Tilson <alantilson@...> wrote:

> Hello Bill,
>
> I did a test a while back on 4D Server 2004 and deleting/creating new was
> much faster than querying/changing/saving, several times faster according
> to
> my memory...if speed is an issue.
>
> Alan Tilson
>
> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Bill Weale <bill.weale@...
> >wrote:
>
> > Is there any good reason to reuse "temporary" records instead of deleting
> > them and creating them again as needed?
> >
> > I'm setting up a type of log file to handle frequent changes to inventory
> > records. The log file records would be created in triggers and a server
> > method would use the log file records to edit the inventory records--the
> > trigger methods won't have to be slowed down by queries or locked
> inventory
> > records. Several thousand such changes a day would be taking place.
> >
> > I've had a concern through the years, based upon no factual information,
> > that continually creating and deleting records, in relatively large
> numbers,
> > increased the vulnerability of the data file to corruption. Is there
> really
> > any reason for that concern now?
> >
> > Bill Weale
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > William W. Weale, III
> >
> > Business Owners Support, LLC.
> >
> > Operations Analysis
> > MIS Advising
> > Decision Support Systems
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > 4D Server v11 SQL has arrived!
> > Buy it NOW at http://store.4ddepot.com
> >
> > 4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> > FAQ:  http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
> > Archive:  http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech
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> > Post: mailto:4d_tech@...
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> > **********************************************************************
> >
> **********************************************************************
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--
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[Chuck Miller-2]

No No do not do this. If you ever have to recover by tags. Many of  
these records will return.

Regards

Chuck
On Aug 11, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Peter Schumacher wrote:

> Hi,
>
> yes, absolutly! And turn off "Complete delete" in the table  
> properties.



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[Peter Jakobsson-2]

On 7 Aug 2008, at 22:30, Chuck Miller wrote:

> If you want to make sure all records for a particular table are the  
> same size, you can do so, by adding a blob, calculating size and  
> the size blob accordingly.


I think that\s what  JPR used to call an 'airbag' :)

I think all of JPR's databases use 'airbags' from what I've gleaned  
over the years from his posts.

Here are some relevant threads:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech/23048

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech/397/focus=424

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.inug-4d.tech/11988

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[Peter Schumacher-2]

Chuck,

first, these a temprary data, who cares. Second, if you crash, you use 4D Backup and integrate a log file, then you do not miss any data. Recover by tags was 4D v2 and it deletes all bad records without telling you about it. Such a data file is no big help.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen
[4D-Consulting.com]eK, Wiesbaden
Peter Schumacher
--------------------------------------------------------
Web: http://www.4D-Consulting.com/
FreeCall:  0800-434 636 7
Tel.:      [phone] - Fax: [phone]
4D-Consulting.com eK - Scharnhorststr. 36 - 65195 Wiesbaden
HR Wiesbaden: HRA 4867


----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Miller
[mailto:cjmiller@...]
To: 4D iNug Tech
[mailto:4d_tech@...]
Sent: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:06:50 +0200
Subject:
Re: Temporary records: Create and delete or reuse?

> No No do not do this. If you ever have to recover by tags. Many of  
> these records will return.
>
> Regards
>
> Chuck
> On Aug 11, 2008, at 1:38 PM, Peter Schumacher wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > yes, absolutly! And turn off "Complete delete" in the table  
> > properties.
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck Miller                          Voice: [phone]
> Informed Solutions, Inc.              Fax: [phone]
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> **********************************************************************
> 4D Server v11 SQL has arrived!
> Buy it NOW at http://store.4ddepot.com
>
> 4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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[Bill Weale]

As an independent developer with a handful of clients running  
"mission-critical" (I *hate* that term) production systems, I'll go  
to almost any length to avoid/minimize this possibility.

Bill


On Aug 11, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Peter Schumacher wrote:

> Second, if you crash, you use 4D Backup and integrate a log file

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[Peter Schumacher-2]

Hi Bill,

any bad experiences? So far, it worked fine for me and my clients.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen
[4D-Consulting.com]eK, Wiesbaden
Peter Schumacher
--------------------------------------------------------
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FreeCall:  0800-434 636 7
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----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Weale
[mailto:Bill.Weale@...]
To: 4D iNug Tech
[mailto:4d_tech@...]
Sent: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:10:15 +0200
Subject:
Re: Temporary records: Create and delete or reuse?

> As an independent developer with a handful of clients running  
> "mission-critical" (I *hate* that term) production systems, I'll go  
> to almost any length to avoid/minimize this possibility.
>
> Bill
>
>
> On Aug 11, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Peter Schumacher wrote:
>
> > Second, if you crash, you use 4D Backup and integrate a log file
>
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