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TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by J. Todd Slack
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Hi All,
So how large is the TCL/TC mac community? Will a lot of people benefit from the Cocoa port? Thoughts are appreciated. Jason ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Kevin Walzer-5
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J. Todd Slack wrote:
> Hi All, > > So how large is the TCL/TC mac community? Will a lot of people benefit > from the Cocoa port? > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > Jason Jason, I can't speak for anyone else, but as one who has been developing software on the Mac since 2004 using Tcl/Tk, I've been fairly active in the community. It's a fairly small group with special interest in the Mac, but the importance of Tcl/Tk on OS X goes beyond Mac developers. Here is my breakdown of the group: 1. Mac-focused developers using Tcl/Tk. This group includes those who are active in maintaining Tcl/Tk itself on the Mac, such as Daniel Steffen and Jeff Hobbs (http://www.activestate.com);; commercial and open-source Tcl/Tk developers who use the Mac as a major development platform, such as Mark Roseman (http://www.courseforum.com) Michael Kirkham (http://www.muonics.com), and Mats Bengtsson (http://thecoccinella.org/); commercial developers who target the Mac specifically, including myself; and open-source developers who maintain the Mac ports of major products, such as Tom Hennigan, the Mac maintainer of aMSN (http://www.amsn-project.net), and Lorenzo Moretti, who maintains the Aqua-native version of Grass GIS (http://wwwamb.bologna.enea.it/forgrass/). 2. Cross-platform Tcl/Tk developers who actively maintain Mac/Aqua versions of their programs. This includes companies such as Simulistics, developer of the modeling/simulation program Simile (http://www.simulistics.com/); Inivis, developer of the 3-D graphics program AC3D (http://www.ac3d.org); Bitrock, developer of InstallBuilder, an installer development toolkit (http://www.bitrock.com); Peter Caffin, developer of RReplace (file search and replace, http://rreplace.autons.net) and Padded, a PAD file builder (http://padded.autons.net); and also open-source developers such as Andres Garcia, developer of Getleft, a web-site downloader (http://personal1.iddeo.es/andresgarci/getleft/english/); Randolf Schultz, developer of Ayam, a 3-D/OpenGL modeler (http://www.ayam3d.org); and others. 3. There is also the wider community of Mac programmers who use Tk from other programming languages, such as Python and Ruby, either in a cross-platform manner (with active development of Aqua versions of their programs) or focusing on the Mac in particular. (See http://wiki.python.org/moin/MacPython/MacSoftwareUsingPython for a sampling.) I also develop in Python, for instance, and use Tk as the GUI for those programs as well. These developers track Tk development less closely than Tcl developers might, but they still file bug reports, and thus contribute to Tk development. More fundamentally, this constituency depends on having a stable, supported, Aqua-native version of Tk on the Mac. So, to summarize: the community of folks interested in Tk on the Mac is probably smaller than Objective-C/Cocoa developers. But it's not inconsequential. Some of these developers have built solid, growing businesses using Tcl/Tk for commercial development of Mac programs. A port of Tk to Cocoa might make the difference between them abandoning the Mac or continuing. Other, open-source developers use Tcl/Tk to maintain some fairly significant programs, either in terms of their complexity or the size of their user base. And finally, a larger community of developers in languages other than Tcl also depends on Tk. In short, this project is an important one. A lot of people will be following your work with great interest and will provide as much help as they can: they certainly want this project to succeed. Many can assist with building, testing, and other feedback, and a smaller subset can probably assist with coding at the C/Objective-C level. I can definitely say that I was considering moving to another language and toolkit until you stepped forward and said that you would work on this project; if Tk is successfully ported to Cocoa, its long-term future on the Mac is bright instead of moribund, as it would be if it remained based on Carbon. Because of this project, I have been re-energized to focus my efforts on improving my programs that use Tk, and also to continue development of some open-source packages that help improve the look and feel of Tk on OS X (in certain cases that aren't supported by the core widget set, i.e .toolbars). Others can chime in, but that's my two cents. Hope it helps. Best, Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Philip Aker-3
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On 08-05-08, at 13:57, J. Todd Slack wrote:
> So how large is the TCL/TC mac community? Will a lot of people > benefit from the Cocoa port? Two steps above Objective-C according to: <http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~flab/languages.html >. Another set of usage statistics is here: <http://www.langpop.com/>. > Thoughts are appreciated. I looked at the BridgeSupport facilities with the idea in mind that it could be beneficial to make some inroads for Tcl into the Cocoa side of MacOS X and maybe tie that in with Daniel's work on ffidl. So I thought I'd start with the basics in CoreFoundation because the documentation mentioned improved support for things not natural to Objective-C. However for C things, BridgeSupport is not really there. For instance it pops: #define kCFCoreFoundationVersionNumber10_0 196.40 into an enum category. And get confused like this: <function name='CFArrayCreate'> ... <arg name='callBacks' declared_type='CFArrayCallBacks*' type='^{_CFDictionaryValueCallBacks=i^?^?^?^?}' type64='^{_CFDictionaryValueCallBacks=q^?^?^?^?}' const='true' type_modifier='n'/> ... </function> And there are items like function pointers in function parameters which it can't translate meaningfully. While part of this problem is lack of completeness in the CoreFoundation headers (no typedefs for some function pointers, etc.), the problem is in the implementation (look at the associated files in the RubyCocoa project to see for yourself) because the Objective-C runtime symbols can't handle some really common C notions (structs as pseudo-classes e.g) well. So I decided to create my own. For CoreFoundation level it's better than the current BridgeSupport files for it. So if you'll be approaching portions of the Tcl->Cocoa effort from that angle, I'd be happy to send you a copy of the XML output. Philip Aker echo astwta@...@nl | tr a-z@. p-za-o.@ Sent from my SE/30 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Mats Bengtsson-5
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I'm aware of at least one additional commercial company that is using Tcl/Tk
(and QuickTimeTcl) on Mac: http://www.farmerswife.com/ Maybe they even can sponsor Cocoa work. (I hope I'm not saying too much now.) Mats ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Jon Guyer
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On May 9, 2008, at 1:40 AM, Philip Aker wrote: > On 08-05-08, at 13:57, J. Todd Slack wrote: > >> So how large is the TCL/TC mac community? Will a lot of people >> benefit from the Cocoa port? > > Two steps above Objective-C according to: <http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~flab/languages.html What does Tcl usage on all SourceForge projects have to do with Tk usage on the Mac? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Philip Aker-3
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On 08-05-09, at 05:36, Jon Guyer wrote:
> On May 9, 2008, at 1:40 AM, Philip Aker wrote: > >> On 08-05-08, at 13:57, J. Todd Slack wrote: >> >>> So how large is the TCL/TC mac community? Will a lot of people >>> benefit from the Cocoa port? >> >> Two steps above Objective-C according to: <http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~flab/languages.html > What does Tcl usage on all SourceForge projects have to do with Tk > usage on the Mac? I was just trying to find some representative usage stats. I think I read somewhere maybe a year ago that there were 500,000 Tcl/Tk users worldwide but couldn't google it up at the time of my post. So if even only a small portion of them decide TKocoa is a viable porting target, people will benefit. Also I think that AOL uses AOLserver (don't hesitate to correct me :) and that could mean a lot of users who don't know or even care if the product they are using is running under this or that language. Are they part of the community? Well maybe no, but AOL has millions of 'em. Philip Aker echo astwta@...@nl | tr a-z@. p-za-o.@ Sent from my SE/30 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Jasper Taylor
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May I make a seemingly barmy suggestion? How about, instead of making Tk use
the Cocoa API, make it use Qt? The resulting code could still be freeware, the source code would be conserved across all platforms, and we would never again have to worry about the obsoletion of various OS-specific API's such as Carbon. --Jasper On Friday 09 May 2008 02:04:00 pm Philip Aker wrote: > I was just trying to find some representative usage stats. I think I > read somewhere maybe a year ago that there were 500,000 Tcl/Tk users > worldwide but couldn't google it up at the time of my post. So if even > only a small portion of them decide TKocoa is a viable porting target, > people will benefit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Kristoffer Lawson-2
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On 11 May 2008, at 21:02, Jasper Taylor wrote: > May I make a seemingly barmy suggestion? How about, instead of > making Tk use > the Cocoa API, make it use Qt? The resulting code could still be > freeware, > the source code would be conserved across all platforms, and we > would never > again have to worry about the obsoletion of various OS-specific > API's such as > Carbon. Just as a user my experience is that Qt really can't replace Cocoa. Some dialogs and the like still seem pretty different. / http://www.scred.com/ / http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by J. Todd Slack
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Hi Jasper,
Interesting suggestion. I own a QT commercial license for all platforms, but it expired on Qt 4.3. I have tried the open sourced Qt 4.4 and it seems nice. I have used Qt since version 2. Do others have thoughts on this? -Jason On May 11, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Jasper Taylor wrote: > May I make a seemingly barmy suggestion? How about, instead of > making Tk use > the Cocoa API, make it use Qt? The resulting code could still be > freeware, > the source code would be conserved across all platforms, and we > would never > again have to worry about the obsoletion of various OS-specific > API's such as > Carbon. > --Jasper > > On Friday 09 May 2008 02:04:00 pm Philip Aker wrote: >> I was just trying to find some representative usage stats. I think I >> read somewhere maybe a year ago that there were 500,000 Tcl/Tk users >> worldwide but couldn't google it up at the time of my post. So if >> even >> only a small portion of them decide TKocoa is a viable porting >> target, >> people will benefit. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save > $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > Tcl-mac mailing list > tcl-mac@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Kevin Walzer-5
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J. Todd Slack wrote:
> Hi Jasper, > > Interesting suggestion. I own a QT commercial license for all > platforms, but it expired on Qt 4.3. I have tried the open sourced Qt > 4.4 and it seems nice. I have used Qt since version 2. > > Do others have thoughts on this? > > -Jason > No, that wouldn't work. Qt's license (commercial or GPL) is incompatible with Tk's BSD-style license. Any commercial development with Tk under these conditions would require the purchase of a propietary license from Trolltech. That currently isn't the case for Tk on any other platform. I can't imagine the core Tk maintainers going for this. -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Mark J. Reed-2
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You didn't miss anything, I did. I just wasn't paying attention. AOL
still uses AOLServer... currently www.aol.com is reporting the 4.0.10 release. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Damon Courtney
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Throw away a 15 year-old tried and tested toolkit to layer it on
top of ANOTHER toolkit which requires the GPL, C++ and is over 5M on a good day? Why don't I just kiss some snakes? Why don't I just HUG AND KISS SOME POISONOUS SNAKES!? Please don't. Cocoa is worth the effort. QT is not. D On May 11, 2008, at 1:28 PM, J. Todd Slack wrote: > Hi Jasper, > > Interesting suggestion. I own a QT commercial license for all > platforms, but it expired on Qt 4.3. I have tried the open sourced Qt > 4.4 and it seems nice. I have used Qt since version 2. > > Do others have thoughts on this? > > -Jason > > On May 11, 2008, at 11:02 AM, Jasper Taylor wrote: > >> May I make a seemingly barmy suggestion? How about, instead of >> making Tk use >> the Cocoa API, make it use Qt? The resulting code could still be >> freeware, >> the source code would be conserved across all platforms, and we >> would never >> again have to worry about the obsoletion of various OS-specific >> API's such as >> Carbon. >> --Jasper >> >> On Friday 09 May 2008 02:04:00 pm Philip Aker wrote: >>> I was just trying to find some representative usage stats. I think I >>> read somewhere maybe a year ago that there were 500,000 Tcl/Tk users >>> worldwide but couldn't google it up at the time of my post. So if >>> even >>> only a small portion of them decide TKocoa is a viable porting >>> target, >>> people will benefit. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference >> Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save >> $100. >> Use priority code J8TL2D2. >> http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone >> _______________________________________________ >> Tcl-mac mailing list >> tcl-mac@... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save > $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > Tcl-mac mailing list > tcl-mac@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save $100. Use priority code J8TL2D2. http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http://java.sun.com/javaone _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Uwe Kirschner
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Hi all,
didn't the idea of a Tcl/Tk Cocoa port originate from the idea of porting Tcl/Tk to the iPhone? In that case, would Qt be of any help? regards, Uwe On 11.05.2008, at 20:02, Jasper Taylor wrote: > May I make a seemingly barmy suggestion? How about, instead of > making Tk use > the Cocoa API, make it use Qt? The resulting code could still be > freeware, > the source code would be conserved across all platforms, and we > would never > again have to worry about the obsoletion of various OS-specific > API's such as > Carbon. > --Jasper > > On Friday 09 May 2008 02:04:00 pm Philip Aker wrote: >> I was just trying to find some representative usage stats. I think I >> read somewhere maybe a year ago that there were 500,000 Tcl/Tk users >> worldwide but couldn't google it up at the time of my post. So if >> even >> only a small portion of them decide TKocoa is a viable porting >> target, >> people will benefit. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by the 2008 JavaOne(SM) Conference > Don't miss this year's exciting event. There's still time to save > $100. > Use priority code J8TL2D2. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;198757673;13503038;p?http:// > java.sun.com/javaone > _______________________________________________ > Tcl-mac mailing list > tcl-mac@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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Re: TCL/TK Cocoa Port
by Kevin Walzer-5
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Uwe Kirschner wrote:
> Hi all, > didn't the idea of a Tcl/Tk Cocoa port originate from the idea of > porting Tcl/Tk to the iPhone? No, it's more a case of ensuring its continued viability on the Mac (because Carbon is deprecated). > > In that case, would Qt be of any help? No. There was some traffic in the thread earlier about this. Qt is incompatible with Tk because of its dual commercial/GPL license. Tk uses a BSD-style license. -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse0120000070mrt/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Tcl-mac mailing list tcl-mac@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-mac |
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