Nabble - Squeak - Seaside

Re: SEO and Seaside

2008-05-13T12:18:34Z

> I'm having great difficulty loading Pier from SqueakMap. Lots of errors.
> Whatever portion I have successfully loaded, I've had a cursory look at, and
> it's very complicated. It would seem that it'll take me months to understand
> the Pier code.

Try the one-click image or start from a fresh 3.9 image, that usually
works without problems.

> Is it possible to give me a few pointers that can quickly get me to what I
> need to know? I don't have that much time and resources to go wading through
> Pier just to figure out how to make my app SEO-friendly.

Have a look at #updateRoot: and #initialRequest: of WABrowser that
comes with Seaside. This is simpler.

What I wanted to point out with Pier is that the web-sites are
properly indexed by Google. The implementation is obscure indeed,
because I have to keep backward comparability with existing code.

Lukas

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Re: version control usage for Seaside/Squeak

2008-05-13T11:51:38Z

Hi Chris,

We use Monticello as follows. For each project we have an empty root
package with dependencies to all other packages (including for example
Seaside). In general, you commit the root package to the repository to
keep different versions of different packages together. In addition we
use MC configuration maps for development, testing and production
image configurations. The dev map, for instance, has additional
packages like eCompletion and Shout whereas production configuration
for example includes a vnc server. Then we have an automatic build
system that grabs new maps and builds images from scratch.

HTH,
Adrian

On May 13, 2008, at 19:35 , Chris Dawson wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to Seaside and Squeak. Monticello is a different version
> control system for me and I want to know how others are building and
> deploying their apps. What technique do people use to build, test
> and then deploy. I imagine I'll be developing locally on my laptop
> and then pushing to a hosting server. I assume I don't want to use
> fileOut and fileIn to manage the code I write. If you are open to
> sharing your code management solutions, I'd like to know. I ask
> because there might be managment solutions that are not obvious to
> me as I am unfamiliar with programming in an image-based tool like
> Smalltalk/Squeak.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

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Re: version control usage for Seaside/Squeak

2008-05-13T11:07:38Z

Hi,

I put all my code in a Monticello package. I save (publish) his
regularly to a local repository on my hard disk. I deploy initially by
copying the image to the production server. Then I can update that by
loading the updated monticello packages. Getting started with
Monticello was not that difficult, I guess "Squeak by Example" has
good up to date information on it. See also
http://preeminent.org/squeak/tut2007/html/128.html

Feel free to ask more specific questions :-)

Cheers

Matthias

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Chris Dawson <xrdawson@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to Seaside and Squeak. Monticello is a different version control
> system for me and I want to know how others are building and deploying their
> apps. What technique do people use to build, test and then deploy. I
> imagine I'll be developing locally on my laptop and then pushing to a
> hosting server. I assume I don't want to use fileOut and fileIn to manage
> the code I write. If you are open to sharing your code management
> solutions, I'd like to know. I ask because there might be managment
> solutions that are not obvious to me as I am unfamiliar with programming in
> an image-based tool like Smalltalk/Squeak.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
>

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version control usage for Seaside/Squeak

2008-05-13T10:35:37Z

Hi all,

I'm new to Seaside and Squeak. Monticello is a different version control system for me and I want to know how others are building and deploying their apps. What technique do people use to build, test and then deploy. I imagine I'll be developing locally on my laptop and then pushing to a hosting server. I assume I don't want to use fileOut and fileIn to manage the code I write. If you are open to sharing your code management solutions, I'd like to know. I ask because there might be managment solutions that are not obvious to me as I am unfamiliar with programming in an image-based tool like Smalltalk/Squeak.

Thanks,
Chris

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Re: SEO and Seaside

2008-05-13T09:52:07Z

I'm having great difficulty loading Pier from SqueakMap. Lots of errors. Whatever portion I have successfully loaded, I've had a cursory look at, and it's very complicated. It would seem that it'll take me months to understand the Pier code.

Is it possible to give me a few pointers that can quickly get me to what I need to know? I don't have that much time and resources to go wading through Pier just to figure out how to make my app SEO-friendly.

Thanks,

Richard

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Re: [ANN] OmniBrowser SeasideXUL Platform

2008-05-12T22:30:36Z

Hi,

On Tue, May 13, 2008 at 3:04 AM, Milan Zimmermann
<milan.zimmermann@...> wrote:

> On 2008 May 12, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > there's the new project home on google code:
> > http://code.google.com/p/seasidexul/. You may download the image with
> > OmniBrowser from this site.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> > There's an experimental image based on the KernelImage too.
> > Can you describe your loading problems from the SqueakSource?
>
> I have loaded all projects from Squeaksource that you described in the
> original XUL email mid-April
>
> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.seaside/15269
>
> (although I generally loaded the latest).
>
> When attaching to running server:
>
> http://localhost:8085/seaside
>
> I obtained:
>
> Internal Error
> Error: My subclass should have overridden #encodeUrl:
> WANullCodec(Object)>>subclassResponsibility
> WANullCodec(WACodec)>>encodeUrl:
> WAUrlEncoder>>nextPutAll:
> [] in WAUrl>>encodePathOn: {[:each | aDocument urlEncoder nextPutAll: each]}
> OrderedCollection(SequenceableCollection)>>do:separatedBy:
> WAUrl>>encodePathOn:
> WAUrl>>encodeOn:usingHtmlEntities:
> WAUrl>>encodeOn:
> WAHtmlStreamDocument>>print:
> [] in WAHtmlAttributes>>encodeOn: {[:key :value | value == false ifFalse:
> [aDocument nextPut: Character space...]}
> WAHtmlAttributes(WASmallDictionary)>>keysAndValuesDo:
> WAHtmlAttributes>>encodeOn:
> WAHtmlStreamDocument>>openTag:attributes:closed:
> WALinkElement(WAHtmlElement)>>encodeBeforeOn:
> WALinkElement(WAHtmlElement)>>encodeOn:
> WAHtmlStreamDocument>>print:
> [] in WAHtmlRoot>>writeElementsOn: {[:each | aDocument print: each]}
> OrderedCollection>>do:
> WAHtmlRoot>>writeElementsOn:
> WAHtmlRoot>>writeHeadOn:
>

hmm, you need to execute some extra initialization for Seaside 2.9
from this days:
WAExternalID initialize.
WAStandardFiles initialize.
WAFileHandler initialize.

> > You may use the issue tracker.
>
> Before that, I will have to do this again, I did not pay attention to details.
>
> Also, as latest XUL is now in Seaside 2.8, would there be an equivalent list
> of projects to load?

Current SeasideXUL is designed for Seaside 2.8 and it is not working
under Seaside 2.9.
You need only to load DynamicBindings, KomServices and KomHttpServer
from SqueakMap and latest Seaside 2.8 from SqueakSource before loading
the SeasideXUL.

for OB-SeasideXUL you need this OmniBrowser packages from
http://source.wiresong.ca/ob/ :
OmniBrowser, OB-Standard

For additional OmniBrowser tools you need this packages from
seaside.gemstone.com/ss/GemStone :
OB-Tools-lr.12, OB-Monticello-dkh.28

Cheers,
-- Pavel

>
> Milan
>
>
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -- Pavel
> >
> > On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:28 AM, Milan Zimmermann
> >
> > <milan.zimmermann@...> wrote:
> > > Hi Pavel,
> > >
> > > Very nice, and I have a question. I tried to install SeasideXUL from
> > > squeaksource but had some problems, so I am using your SeasideXUL image
> > > for now. Which of the images on your site
> > > http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL has the up to date SeasideXUL, is
> > > it obseasidexul.zip or SeasideXUL.zip ? (I used SeasideXUL but it seems
> > > the other is newer)
> > >
> > > Thanks Milan
> > >
> > > On 2008 May 9, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I have created the initial implementation of SeasideXUL Platform for
> > > > OmniBrowser.
> > > >
> > > > screenshot:
> > > > http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/screenshots/obseasidexul.png
> > > > prepared image:
> > > > http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/obseasidexul.zip
> > > >
> > > > Firefox 3 or XULRunner is necessary to run it on the client side.
> > > > Remeber it is still far from perfect but it starts to be slowly
> > > > usable. More helping hands are welcome :-)
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > -- Pavel
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > seaside mailing list
> > > > seaside@...
> > > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > seaside mailing list
> > > seaside@...
> > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > seaside mailing list
> > seaside@...
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

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Re: [ANN] OmniBrowser SeasideXUL Platform

2008-05-12T18:04:58Z

On 2008 May 12, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
> Hi,
>
> there's the new project home on google code:
> http://code.google.com/p/seasidexul/. You may download the image with
> OmniBrowser from this site.

Thanks.

> There's an experimental image based on the KernelImage too.
> Can you describe your loading problems from the SqueakSource?

I have loaded all projects from Squeaksource that you described in the
original XUL email mid-April

http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.seaside/15269

(although I generally loaded the latest).

When attaching to running server:

http://localhost:8085/seaside

I obtained:

Internal Error
Error: My subclass should have overridden #encodeUrl:
WANullCodec(Object)>>subclassResponsibility
WANullCodec(WACodec)>>encodeUrl:
WAUrlEncoder>>nextPutAll:
[] in WAUrl>>encodePathOn: {[:each | aDocument urlEncoder nextPutAll: each]}
OrderedCollection(SequenceableCollection)>>do:separatedBy:
WAUrl>>encodePathOn:
WAUrl>>encodeOn:usingHtmlEntities:
WAUrl>>encodeOn:
WAHtmlStreamDocument>>print:
[] in WAHtmlAttributes>>encodeOn: {[:key :value | value == false ifFalse:
[aDocument nextPut: Character space...]}
WAHtmlAttributes(WASmallDictionary)>>keysAndValuesDo:
WAHtmlAttributes>>encodeOn:
WAHtmlStreamDocument>>openTag:attributes:closed:
WALinkElement(WAHtmlElement)>>encodeBeforeOn:
WALinkElement(WAHtmlElement)>>encodeOn:
WAHtmlStreamDocument>>print:
[] in WAHtmlRoot>>writeElementsOn: {[:each | aDocument print: each]}
OrderedCollection>>do:
WAHtmlRoot>>writeElementsOn:
WAHtmlRoot>>writeHeadOn:

> You may use the issue tracker.

Before that, I will have to do this again, I did not pay attention to details.

Also, as latest XUL is now in Seaside 2.8, would there be an equivalent list
of projects to load?

Milan

>
> Cheers,
> -- Pavel
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:28 AM, Milan Zimmermann
>
> <milan.zimmermann@...> wrote:
> > Hi Pavel,
> >
> > Very nice, and I have a question. I tried to install SeasideXUL from
> > squeaksource but had some problems, so I am using your SeasideXUL image
> > for now. Which of the images on your site
> > http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL has the up to date SeasideXUL, is
> > it obseasidexul.zip or SeasideXUL.zip ? (I used SeasideXUL but it seems
> > the other is newer)
> >
> > Thanks Milan
> >
> > On 2008 May 9, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I have created the initial implementation of SeasideXUL Platform for
> > > OmniBrowser.
> > >
> > > screenshot:
> > > http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/screenshots/obseasidexul.png
> > > prepared image:
> > > http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/obseasidexul.zip
> > >
> > > Firefox 3 or XULRunner is necessary to run it on the client side.
> > > Remeber it is still far from perfect but it starts to be slowly
> > > usable. More helping hands are welcome :-)
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > -- Pavel
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > >
> > > seaside mailing list
> > > seaside@...
> > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > seaside mailing list
> > seaside@...
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

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Re: SEO and Seaside

2008-05-12T06:27:31Z

> > Is Seaside/Squeak SEO-friendly?
>
> No, in general anything that requires a session is not.

It can be made SEO-friendly though. See Pier with examples like
seaside.st, lukas-renggli.ch, etc.

Lukas

--
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Re: SEO and Seaside

2008-05-12T06:16:33Z

2008/5/12, Richard Eng <richard.eng@...>:
> Is Seaside/Squeak SEO-friendly?

No, in general anything that requires a session is not.

> My website isn't showing up in any search
> results on Google, Yahoo!, or MSN.

Due to the sheer market share you can afford to concentrate on Google
only. To get more feedback register for Google Webmaster Tools:
www.google.com/webmasters/tools

> Apparently, spiders have a hard time
> scanning my website. Perhaps because of the "dynamic" nature of the
> application?

Very likely, remember each search result must be "linkable"

Cheers
Philippe
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SEO and Seaside

2008-05-12T06:06:53Z

Is Seaside/Squeak SEO-friendly? My website isn't showing up in any
search results on Google, Yahoo!, or MSN. Apparently, spiders have a
hard time scanning my website. Perhaps because of the "dynamic" nature
of the application?

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-12T05:52:10Z

>>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Lienhard <adi@...> writes:

Adrian> With respect to relational DBs, Squeak has good support for Postgres. We are
Adrian> successfully using this combination in a couple of larger projects.

Precisely... I just deployed my first commercial application yesterday
using Squeak to talk to a legacy PostgreSQL database with GLORP,
Magritte, and Seaside.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@...> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-12T02:46:01Z

On May 12, 2008, at 06:37 , Aaron Broad wrote:

> I second that.. I think coming from java the persistence options
> other than gemstone seem unprofessional and scary for using seaside
> commerciallly.

With respect to relational DBs, Squeak has good support for Postgres.
We are successfully using this combination in a couple of larger
projects.

Adrian
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Re: [ANN] OmniBrowser SeasideXUL Platform

2008-05-12T01:34:21Z

Hi,

there's the new project home on google code:
http://code.google.com/p/seasidexul/. You may download the image with
OmniBrowser from this site.
There's an experimental image based on the KernelImage too.
Can you describe your loading problems from the SqueakSource? You may
use the issue tracker.

Cheers,
-- Pavel

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:28 AM, Milan Zimmermann
<milan.zimmermann@...> wrote:

> Hi Pavel,
>
> Very nice, and I have a question. I tried to install SeasideXUL from
> squeaksource but had some problems, so I am using your SeasideXUL image for
> now. Which of the images on your site http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL
> has the up to date SeasideXUL, is it obseasidexul.zip or SeasideXUL.zip ?
> (I used SeasideXUL but it seems the other is newer)
>
> Thanks Milan
>
>
>
> On 2008 May 9, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have created the initial implementation of SeasideXUL Platform for
> > OmniBrowser.
> >
> > screenshot:
> > http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/screenshots/obseasidexul.png
> > prepared image: http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/obseasidexul.zip
> >
> > Firefox 3 or XULRunner is necessary to run it on the client side.
> > Remeber it is still far from perfect but it starts to be slowly
> > usable. More helping hands are welcome :-)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -- Pavel
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > seaside mailing list
> > seaside@...
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-12T00:55:23Z

On May 12, 2008, at 8:54 AM, Steve Wart wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> Is the limited license for Linux available for 32-bit CPUs? I wasn't
> able to find a link to something that would work on Redhat x686.
>
> Regards,
> Steve

No, while we have a 32-bit product that is commercially available and
supported, it has significant limitations on scaling and it doesn't
have the VM enhancements required to support Seaside. With the
possible exception of hosted servers, 64-bit hardware is now
sufficiently inexpensive so that we recommend that new development
start there.

James Foster

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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T23:54:26Z

Hi James,

Is the limited license for Linux available for 32-bit CPUs? I wasn't able to find a link to something that would work on Redhat x686.

Regards,
Steve

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 7:06 AM, James Foster <Smalltalk@...> wrote:

On May 12, 2008, at 7:23 AM, Edward Stow wrote:

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:14 PM, James Foster <Smalltalk@...> wrote:

GemStone/S Web Edition is available at no cost, even for commercial use,
with the primary limitation of 4 GB of disk. For more information see
http://seaside.gemstone.com. Dale's blog

James, could you clarify the terms and conditions of the Web Edition.
That is Gemstone is available for free commercial use **only if**
Gemstone is running on / in the VMWare virtual appliance. Can you
confirm?

For me this is an awkward restriction as I use a VPS to host my web
applications.

Edward,

While the formal license (http://seaside.gemstone.com/docs/GLASS-License.pdf) is the final word, I can say that the Web Edition is tied to Linux, not a particular hardware environment (virtual or otherwise). The VMware virtual appliance is intended to simplify the install/setup/configuration process (which is non-trivial and requires changes to the various kernel parameters such as virtual memory). A VPS host should be just fine (provided you have root or sudo access to set kernel parameters).

James Foster
GemStone Systems, Inc.

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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T23:17:06Z

On May 12, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Chris Dawson wrote:

> James (and Aaron),
>
> Thanks for the input. I'm reading up on Magma, but GemStone/S looks
> like a great fit. Where can I find a tutorial on using it? I read
> a bit about it in the 414 page PDF on the site. Is there something
> a bit shorter that I could use to build upon the STTodoTut app?
>
> Chris

Chris,

So far we haven't published an intro tutorial (though I will be giving
one at Smalltalk Solutions in Reno in June). In general, if you follow
any of the existing tutorials for Squeak, things should be rather
similar. One approach, particularly if you are new to Smalltalk, is to
build the application in Squeak and then port it to GemStone/S when
you get closer to deployment.

James Foster
GemStone Systems, Inc.
>

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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T23:06:50Z

On May 12, 2008, at 7:23 AM, Edward Stow wrote:

> On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:14 PM, James Foster
> <Smalltalk@...> wrote:
>
>> GemStone/S Web Edition is available at no cost, even for commercial
>> use,
>> with the primary limitation of 4 GB of disk. For more information see
>> http://seaside.gemstone.com. Dale's blog
>
> James, could you clarify the terms and conditions of the Web Edition.
> That is Gemstone is available for free commercial use **only if**
> Gemstone is running on / in the VMWare virtual appliance. Can you
> confirm?
>
> For me this is an awkward restriction as I use a VPS to host my web
> applications.

Edward,

While the formal license (http://seaside.gemstone.com/docs/GLASS-License.pdf
) is the final word, I can say that the Web Edition is tied to Linux,
not a particular hardware environment (virtual or otherwise). The
VMware virtual appliance is intended to simplify the install/setup/
configuration process (which is non-trivial and requires changes to
the various kernel parameters such as virtual memory). A VPS host
should be just fine (provided you have root or sudo access to set
kernel parameters).

James Foster
GemStone Systems, Inc.

>>
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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T22:36:11Z

Hi Aaron,

On May 12, 2008, at 6:37 AM, Aaron Broad wrote:

> I second that.. I think coming from java the persistence options
> other than gemstone seem unprofessional and scary for using seaside
> commerciallly. But perhaps thats biased. Maybe in smalltalk the
> idea of having a database as reliable as say mysql being written and
> maintained by one person is perfectly normal? I've just discovered
> smalltalk/seaside. Sadly it wasn't sooner. It seems really
> wonderful, and am hoping to create several great web apps with it,
> but I too am worried about my data. What are the best data
> options? What are the tradeoffs. How reliable are they really in
> your experience?

As to GemStone/S (disclaimer: I'm an employee), the product is over 2
decades old and is being used around the world by Swiss banks, New
York investment firms, trading exchanges, container shipping
companies, chip manufacturing plants, etc. The database engine has
full transaction semantics (including transaction log replay), so
reliability is generally as good as your hardware and backup plans
(e.g., use disk mirroring, keep an off-site backup, etc.).

> I'm convinced already that seaside is the easiest way to make web
> apps, but am worried about data reliability. I read somewhere
> dabble db uses an inhouse written database? Like that just sounds
> so 1970s to a java programmer or even a ruby programmer i imagine.

The DabbleDB approach is actually one where they save the objects to
disk using "image segments," using features they added to Squeak (I
believe). They have the benefit of only having to convince themselves
(and their customers) that it works, so they aren't tied to brands or
other perceptions. They just use the simplest thing that works, and
focus their efforts on providing other value to their customers. Since
they don't have to argue technology with Java programmers and a large
organization, they can move on to other things. It is good work if you
can get it!

> I have trouble convincing java programmers that db4o is useful, even
> though its backed by a large organization and is open source and
> what not. There is just this general distrust for anything that
> doesn't in the end, end up in an SQL database with a brand name.

If someone were looking for commercial support for RDB connectivity,
then Cincom's work with GLORP would be something to investigate.

> I expect Gemstone to do brisk business on this mindset. But are
> there free($ and open source) options of comparable quality, if not
> in speed, but in reliability?

The GemStone Web Edition is the commercial product limited is scaling
but not in reliability (e.g., the database is limited to 4 GB). It
provides all the same reliability features and can be used for
commercial applications at no cost (but is not open source).

James Foster
GemStone Systems, Inc.
>

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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T22:23:20Z

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 3:14 PM, James Foster <Smalltalk@...> wrote:

>
> GemStone/S Web Edition is available at no cost, even for commercial use,
> with the primary limitation of 4 GB of disk. For more information see
> http://seaside.gemstone.com. Dale's blog

James, could you clarify the terms and conditions of the Web Edition.
That is Gemstone is available for free commercial use **only if**
Gemstone is running on / in the VMWare virtual appliance. Can you
confirm?

For me this is an awkward restriction as I use a VPS to host my web
applications.

> (http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/) has a series of posts on scaling, as
> well as other good, up-to-date information. The Seaside work is in an open
> beta where anyone who asks is given access to the latest download.
>
> James Foster
> GemStone Systems, Inc.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>
>

--

Edward Stow
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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T22:22:15Z

James (and Aaron),

Thanks for the input. I'm reading up on Magma, but GemStone/S looks like a great fit. Where can I find a tutorial on using it? I read a bit about it in the 414 page PDF on the site. Is there something a bit shorter that I could use to build upon the STTodoTut app?

Chris

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 10:14 PM, James Foster <Smalltalk@...> wrote:

On May 12, 2008, at 5:53 AM, Chris Dawson wrote:

I'm new to Seaside and am reading the great Seaside tutorial here: http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/seaside/tutorial. I am somewhat unimpressed with the section on persistence. I'm looking for advice on how to build my application so that I can scale when needed. Should I be using GemStone/S? Or, another OOP database, like GOODS? GOODS scares me as it looks like it is supported by an individual, not a community or company. Any advice is appreciated. What attracted me to Seaside was precisely the notion that I could avoid dealing with scaling problems like you see in Ruby on Rails.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Welcome to Seaside. I've been reading the printed copy of the Potsdam tutorial and like it as well. One thing to note is that it is specifically tied to Squeak, so does not reflect the commercial offerings. For example, I think you will find that Cincom's approach (based on GLORP) will provide a very strong tie to a variety of industrial strength relational databases. See James Robertson's bog (http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/View.ssp) for more on that approach.

Of course, if you are building a new application and are not tied to a relational database, I'd recommend GemStone/S (but then I'm employed by GemStone ;-). We believe that GemStone's contribution to Seaside is, of course, persistence, scaling, and simplicity (avoiding O/R mapping). As to scaling, the design limits exceed whatever hardware you are likely to purchase (number of machines, CPUs, amount of RAM, amount of disk, etc.). We have (non-Seaside) customers with hundreds of machines connected to the same database, others with thousands of concurrent database connections, databases of hundreds of GB, thousands of transactions per second, response times measured in low milliseconds, etc.

GemStone/S Web Edition is available at no cost, even for commercial use, with the primary limitation of 4 GB of disk. For more information see http://seaside.gemstone.com. Dale's blog (http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/) has a series of posts on scaling, as well as other good, up-to-date information. The Seaside work is in an open beta where anyone who asks is given access to the latest download.

James Foster
GemStone Systems, Inc.

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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T22:14:36Z

On May 12, 2008, at 5:53 AM, Chris Dawson wrote:

I'm new to Seaside and am reading the great Seaside tutorial here: http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/seaside/tutorial. I am somewhat unimpressed with the section on persistence. I'm looking for advice on how to build my application so that I can scale when needed. Should I be using GemStone/S? Or, another OOP database, like GOODS? GOODS scares me as it looks like it is supported by an individual, not a community or company. Any advice is appreciated. What attracted me to Seaside was precisely the notion that I could avoid dealing with scaling problems like you see in Ruby on Rails.

Chris

Hi Chris,

Welcome to Seaside. I've been reading the printed copy of the Potsdam tutorial and like it as well. One thing to note is that it is specifically tied to Squeak, so does not reflect the commercial offerings. For example, I think you will find that Cincom's approach (based on GLORP) will provide a very strong tie to a variety of industrial strength relational databases. See James Robertson's bog (http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/View.ssp) for more on that approach.

Of course, if you are building a new application and are not tied to a relational database, I'd recommend GemStone/S (but then I'm employed by GemStone ;-). We believe that GemStone's contribution to Seaside is, of course, persistence, scaling, and simplicity (avoiding O/R mapping). As to scaling, the design limits exceed whatever hardware you are likely to purchase (number of machines, CPUs, amount of RAM, amount of disk, etc.). We have (non-Seaside) customers with hundreds of machines connected to the same database, others with thousands of concurrent database connections, databases of hundreds of GB, thousands of transactions per second, response times measured in low milliseconds, etc.

GemStone/S Web Edition is available at no cost, even for commercial use, with the primary limitation of 4 GB of disk. For more information see http://seaside.gemstone.com. Dale's blog (http://gemstonesoup.wordpress.com/) has a series of posts on scaling, as well as other good, up-to-date information. The Seaside work is in an open beta where anyone who asks is given access to the latest download.

James Foster

GemStone Systems, Inc.

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Re: question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T21:37:27Z

I second that.. I think coming from java the persistence options other than gemstone seem unprofessional and scary for using seaside commerciallly. But perhaps thats biased. Maybe in smalltalk the idea of having a database as reliable as say mysql being written and maintained by one person is perfectly normal? I've just discovered smalltalk/seaside. Sadly it wasn't sooner. It seems really wonderful, and am hoping to create several great web apps with it, but I too am worried about my data. What are the best data options? What are the tradeoffs. How reliable are they really in your experience?

I'm convinced already that seaside is the easiest way to make web apps, but am worried about data reliability. I read somewhere dabble db uses an inhouse written database? Like that just sounds so 1970s to a java programmer or even a ruby programmer i imagine. I have trouble convincing java programmers that db4o is useful, even though its backed by a large organization and is open source and what not. There is just this general distrust for anything that doesn't in the end, end up in an SQL database with a brand name. I expect Gemstone to do brisk business on this mindset. But are there free($ and open source) options of comparable quality, if not in speed, but in reliability?

Aaron

On Mon, May 12, 2008 at 12:53 AM, Chris Dawson <xrdawson@...> wrote:

I'm new to Seaside and am reading the great Seaside tutorial here: http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/seaside/tutorial. I am somewhat unimpressed with the section on persistence. I'm looking for advice on how to build my application so that I can scale when needed. Should I be using GemStone/S? Or, another OOP database, like GOODS? GOODS scares me as it looks like it is supported by an individual, not a community or company. Any advice is appreciated. What attracted me to Seaside was precisely the notion that I could avoid dealing with scaling problems like you see in Ruby on Rails.

Chris

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question on database and scaling

2008-05-11T20:53:35Z

I'm new to Seaside and am reading the great Seaside tutorial here: http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/seaside/tutorial. I am somewhat unimpressed with the section on persistence. I'm looking for advice on how to build my application so that I can scale when needed. Should I be using GemStone/S? Or, another OOP database, like GOODS? GOODS scares me as it looks like it is supported by an individual, not a community or company. Any advice is appreciated. What attracted me to Seaside was precisely the notion that I could avoid dealing with scaling problems like you see in Ruby on Rails.

Chris

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Re: [ANN] OmniBrowser SeasideXUL Platform

2008-05-11T18:28:10Z

Hi Pavel,

Very nice, and I have a question. I tried to install SeasideXUL from
squeaksource but had some problems, so I am using your SeasideXUL image for
now. Which of the images on your site http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL
has the up to date SeasideXUL, is it obseasidexul.zip or SeasideXUL.zip ?
(I used SeasideXUL but it seems the other is newer)

Thanks Milan

On 2008 May 9, Pavel Krivanek wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have created the initial implementation of SeasideXUL Platform for
> OmniBrowser.
>
> screenshot:
> http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/screenshots/obseasidexul.png
> prepared image: http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/obseasidexul.zip
>
> Firefox 3 or XULRunner is necessary to run it on the client side.
> Remeber it is still far from perfect but it starts to be slowly
> usable. More helping hands are welcome :-)
>
> Cheers,
> -- Pavel
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside

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Re: [squeak-dev] What do you expect to get from Duration>>seconds and Time>>seconds?

2008-05-10T02:39:45Z

2008/5/10 Ken Causey <ken@...>:

> One of the issues reported against 3.10 is that 'Time now seconds'
> returns a fraction and not an integer as it did in 3.9 (and presumably
> before). It turns out the fact that it was an integer previously was an
> artifact of the fact that the clock did not provide sub-second
> precision. Now that it does it returns a fraction. All along the
> actual calculation of seconds was done in Duration>>seconds and since
> 2003 that calculation has taken nanoseconds into consideration and
> clearly would return a fraction if nanoseconds is non-zero.
>
> I think it's reasonable to get a fraction from Duration>>seconds since
> sub-second durations are not unusual. Maybe someone else expects to get
> a 0 in that case, if so please speak up.
>
> However what about Time>>seconds? The ANSI protocol specifies
> Duration>>seconds simply specifying that it returns a number, but there
> is no specification for Time>>seconds or DateAndTime>>seconds at all.
> It does however specify DateAndTime>>second though and again it only
> says 'number'. So it seems to be time to gather opinions.
>

One glitch, which i found, is how Seaside interprets it and uses

Time seconds asTwoCharacterString to display date&time in tests.

this leads to DNU because #asTwoCharacterString implemented for
Integer class, not for Fraction.

> Ken
>
>
>
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
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RBFormatter DNU [was: [ANN][Squeak-dev Images] May 2008 versions]

2008-05-10T01:58:43Z

On Fri, 09 May 2008 18:12:29 +0200, Damien Cassou wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've just uploaded new squeak-dev and squeak-web images based on
> Squeak3.9.1-7075 and Squeak3.10-7159.

Thank you Damien for putting the memory settings
combined-massive-knowledge into your fine distro's script managner :)

Something quite different: while hunting for DNU's in OB (as promised to
David) I was surprised with
MessageNotUnderstood: RBFormatter
class>>format:in:notifying:contentsSymbol:
- http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=7038

but could not reproduce after saving the image :(

Keep up the good work Damien and thanks for this month's incarnation :)

/Klaus

> Download: https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/?group_id=1211
>
> More information and download links:
> http://damien.cassou.free.fr/squeak-dev.html
>
> Changes in this version:
> ---------------------------
>
> - Algernon has been included in the beta images
> (http://news.squeak.org/2008/05/07/algernon-your-personal-assistant-for-squeak/).
> - Diff Tools have also been included in the beta images
> (http://astares.blogspot.com/2008/04/diff-tools-for-squeak.html)
> - Monticello 1.5 has been removed from the beta images because it
> seems to cause some troubles. However, I would like to reintroduce it
> as soon as people tell me it's now ok.
> - Magritte and Pier have been updated in the web images
> - OB-Enhancements saw a lot of bug fixes and new features (inclusion
> of smart groups, double-click support on some items...)
> - Lots of fixes for OB-Standard
> - UIEnhancements has been updated
>
>
> Contained packages:
> ------------------------
>
> This image contains the following packages (some packages are only in
> the squeak-web image or beta images):
>
> Aida version 5.6
> Algernon version 1.0.1
> AST version 157
> AutomaticMethodCategorizer version 0.25
> AutomaticMethodCategorizerOB version 0.2
> Diff Tools version 0.51
> DynamicBindings version 2.7
> eCompletion version 0.89
> eCompletion-Traits version 0.1
> eCompletionOmniBrowser version 0.4
> Event Enhancements version 0.6
> Geometry Models version 0.3
> Installer version 4.1
> KomHttpServer version 7.0.30
> KomServices version 1.12
> Magritte-Model version 1.0.16.310
> Magritte-Morph version 1.0.16.42
> Magritte-Seaside version 1.0.16.259
> Magritte-Tests version 1.0.16.138
> Null version 0.13
> OB-Enhancements version 0.167
> OmniBrowser version 0.412.1
> OmniBrowser-Full version 0.25
> OmniBrowser-Morphic version 0.47
> OmniBrowser-Refactory version 0.85
> OmniBrowser-Regex version 0.8.2
> OmniBrowser-Standard version 0.335
> OmniBrowser-SUnitIntegration version 0.9.1
> OmniBrowser-TraitsIntegration version 0.33
> Pier version current
> Pier-Blog version 1.0.16.73
> Pier-Documents version 1.0.16.5
> Pier-EditorEnh version 1.0.16.12
> Pier-Model version 1.0.16.217
> Pier-OmniBrowser version 1.0.16.33
> Pier-Seaside version 1.0.16.269
> Pier-Security version 1.0.16.105
> Pier-Tests version 1.0.16.93
> Refactoring Engine version 47
> Rio version 0.34.29
> Rio-Kernel version 0.78
> RoelTyper version 0.60
> RSRSS2 version 2.8.9
> Scriptaculous version 2.8.228
> ScriptManager version 0.6
> Seaside version 2.8.522
> Seaside-Adapters-Core version pmm.2.mcz
> Seaside-Adapters-Swazoo version 8
> Seaside-Squeak-Adapters version pmm.3.mcz
> SeasideAdaptersCompatibility version pmm.1.mcz
> Shout version 3.15-tween.70
> ShoutWorkspace version 1-tween.2
> SmaCC runtime version 13
> Sport version 2.31
> Squeak dev packages version 0.20
> Squeak dev packages beta version 0.25
> Squeak web packages version 0.2
> SUnit-improved version 4.0.108
> SUnitGUI-improved version 4.0.48
> Swazoo version 2.1
> ToolBuilder integration for UI Themes version 0.52
> UI Themes and Standard Widgets version 0.70
> Universes version 42
> Universes OmniBrowser version 0.35
> VBRegex version 1.9
> YAXO version 9
>
>
> Updating the image:
> -------------------------
>
> You are not obliged to download a new image if you don't want. You can
> always update your image.
>
> To upgrade your already existing squeak-dev image:
>
> 1) World menu->open...->Package Universe Browser
> 2) Update list from network
> 3) Select all upgrades
> 4) Install selection
> 5) Execute: 'DEVImageCreator default install' (all windows will be
> closed)
>
>
> Prepared packages:
> --------------------------
>
> There are a lot of packages prepared for you in this image. They are
> not loaded in the image, but they can be easily.
>
> - Open Package Universe Browser (world->open...->Package Universe
> Browser).
> - Click on "Update list from network"
> - Wait a few seconds
> - Select your packages
> - Install them
>

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Re: onSuccess: problem

2008-05-10T01:44:12Z

> Then you'll see how to use SUStream manually to feed hand written JavaScript
> into #onSuccess:. Scriptaculous events like #onSuccess: do not work like
> Seaside events like #onClick: or #onChange:. Seaside events assume they're
> being handed JavaScript and they just run whatever you give them, but
> Scriptaculous events call #asFunction on whatever you give them, so when you
> give them a string, they wrap a function around it...
>
> function(){'window.alert("Failure")'}

The reason for this is that Scriptaculous "translates" Smalltalk to
JavaScript. If you put a string literal into a JavaScript object it is
transformed to a JavaScript string with the propre escaping of special
chars, etc.

As Ramon pointed out you need SUStream to tell a stream to be emitted verbatim.

Personally I prefer the logging framework built into all modern
webbrowser (Safari, FireFox) over using "alert()". It is not only more
convenient to get the message, but also much simpler to use:

onSuccess: (html logger errror: 'Failure')

There are many other variateions. See the SULogger class.

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
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Re: onSuccess: problem

2008-05-09T19:10:56Z

It is so easy! I'm feel like a dumb... I tried everything, except that.
Thanks!

Esteban

On 2008-05-09 21:34:46 -0300, "Ramon Leon" <ramon.leon@...> said:

>
>> Hi all,
>> I'm having problems with html request... onSuccess:, this is
>> what i'm doing:
>>
>> html anchor
>> class: #eventRefresh;
>> onClick: (
>> (html request
>> callback: [ Transcript show:
>> 'REQ'; cr ];
>> onSuccess: 'window.alert("OK")';
>> onFailure: 'window.alert("Failure")'));
>> with: [ html image url: SushiLibrary / #addPng ]
>>
>> This is rendering all ok ('REQ' is being written on
>> transcript window)
>> ... but onSuccess (or onFailure) is not being called after it...
>>
>> This is de javascript generated with that call:
>>
>> new
>> Ajax.Request('http://localhost:8080/seaside/Sushimoto',{'onSuc
>> cess':function(){'window.alert("OK")'},'onFailure':function(){
>> 'window.alert("Failure")'},'parameters':['_s=BeRHEehLgPOyfdJU'
>> ,'_k=zvZqQkjr','11'].join('&')})
>
> onSuccess: (html alert: 'OK')
>
> If you look at how #alert: is implemented...
>
> alert: anObject
> self add: (SUStream new
> nextPutAll: 'alert';
> argument: anObject;
> yourself)
>
> Then you'll see how to use SUStream manually to feed hand written JavaScript
> into #onSuccess:. Scriptaculous events like #onSuccess: do not work like
> Seaside events like #onClick: or #onChange:. Seaside events assume they're
> being handed JavaScript and they just run whatever you give them, but
> Scriptaculous events call #asFunction on whatever you give them, so when you
> give them a string, they wrap a function around it...
>
> function(){'window.alert("Failure")'}
>
> Which basically won't do anything. So if you want hand written JavaScript,
> do this...
>
> onSuccess: (SUStream on: 'window.alert("OK")')
>
> And it'll work.
>
> Ramon Leon
> http://onsmalltalk.com

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RE: onSuccess: problem

2008-05-09T17:30:59Z

> Hi all,
> I'm having problems with html request... onSuccess:, this is
> what i'm doing:
>
> html anchor
> class: #eventRefresh;
> onClick: (
> (html request
> callback: [ Transcript show:
> 'REQ'; cr ];
> onSuccess: 'window.alert("OK")';
> onFailure: 'window.alert("Failure")'));
> with: [ html image url: SushiLibrary / #addPng ]
>
> This is rendering all ok ('REQ' is being written on
> transcript window)
> ... but onSuccess (or onFailure) is not being called after it...
>
> This is de javascript generated with that call:
>
> new
> Ajax.Request('http://localhost:8080/seaside/Sushimoto',{'onSuc
> cess':function(){'window.alert("OK")'},'onFailure':function(){
> 'window.alert("Failure")'},'parameters':['_s=BeRHEehLgPOyfdJU'
> ,'_k=zvZqQkjr','11'].join('&')})

onSuccess: (html alert: 'OK')

If you look at how #alert: is implemented...

alert: anObject
self add: (SUStream new
nextPutAll: 'alert';
argument: anObject;
yourself)

Then you'll see how to use SUStream manually to feed hand written JavaScript
into #onSuccess:. Scriptaculous events like #onSuccess: do not work like
Seaside events like #onClick: or #onChange:. Seaside events assume they're
being handed JavaScript and they just run whatever you give them, but
Scriptaculous events call #asFunction on whatever you give them, so when you
give them a string, they wrap a function around it...

function(){'window.alert("Failure")'}

Which basically won't do anything. So if you want hand written JavaScript,
do this...

onSuccess: (SUStream on: 'window.alert("OK")')

And it'll work.

Ramon Leon
http://onsmalltalk.com

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onSuccess: problem

2008-05-09T17:13:24Z

Hi all,
I'm having problems with html request... onSuccess:, this is what i'm doing:

html anchor
class: #eventRefresh;
onClick: (
(html request
callback: [ Transcript show: 'REQ'; cr ];
onSuccess: 'window.alert("OK")';
onFailure: 'window.alert("Failure")'));
with: [ html image url: SushiLibrary / #addPng ]

This is rendering all ok ('REQ' is being written on transcript window)
... but onSuccess (or onFailure) is not being called after it...

This is de javascript generated with that call:

new
Ajax.Request('http://localhost:8080/seaside/Sushimoto',{'onSuccess':function(){'window.alert("OK")'},'onFailure':function(){'window.alert("Failure")'},'parameters':['_s=BeRHEehLgPOyfdJU','_k=zvZqQkjr','11'].join('&')})

I

asked at #prototype irc channel and someone tell me that I have to
remove de ' of the 'onSuccess' (and I suppose is the same in the
generated function) but i don't know how to do this (seems to has
something to do with SUStream encode:to:, but if i remove the $' from
the encoding, errors start to appear everywhere.

I don't know how to proceed from here...

I'm using Seaside2.8a1-lr.541 and Scriptaculous-mb.239 (I tried with
lr.540 too) on a 3.10 image.

Thanks,
Esteban

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Re: [ANN] OmniBrowser SeasideXUL Platform

2008-05-09T08:29:42Z

Hi Stef,

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 1:57 PM, stephane ducasse
<stephane.ducasse@...> wrote:
> Thanks pavel.
> This is cool.
> BTW do you have some news about the kernelImage?

only few small changes in last weeks. I should prepare
SeasideXULUIManager and port this OmniBrowser tools to KernelImage.

-- Pavel

>
> On May 9, 2008, at 1:46 PM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have created the initial implementation of SeasideXUL Platform for
>> OmniBrowser.
>>
>> screenshot:
>> http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/screenshots/obseasidexul.png
>> prepared image: http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/obseasidexul.zip
>>
>> Firefox 3 or XULRunner is necessary to run it on the client side.
>> Remeber it is still far from perfect but it starts to be slowly
>> usable. More helping hands are welcome :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> -- Pavel
>> _______________________________________________
>> seaside mailing list
>> seaside@...
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

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Re: [ANN] OmniBrowser SeasideXUL Platform

2008-05-09T04:57:00Z

Thanks pavel.
This is cool.
BTW do you have some news about the kernelImage?

On May 9, 2008, at 1:46 PM, Pavel Krivanek wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I have created the initial implementation of SeasideXUL Platform for
> OmniBrowser.
>
> screenshot: http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/screenshots/obseasidexul.png
> prepared image: http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/obseasidexul.zip
>
> Firefox 3 or XULRunner is necessary to run it on the client side.
> Remeber it is still far from perfect but it starts to be slowly
> usable. More helping hands are welcome :-)
>
> Cheers,
> -- Pavel
> _______________________________________________
> seaside mailing list
> seaside@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside
>

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[ANN] OmniBrowser SeasideXUL Platform

2008-05-09T04:46:11Z

Hi all,

I have created the initial implementation of SeasideXUL Platform for
OmniBrowser.

screenshot: http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/screenshots/obseasidexul.png
prepared image: http://comtalk.eu/public/pub/SeasideXUL/obseasidexul.zip

Firefox 3 or XULRunner is necessary to run it on the client side.
Remeber it is still far from perfect but it starts to be slowly
usable. More helping hands are welcome :-)

Cheers,
-- Pavel
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Re: Re: SSH client for Squeak?

2008-05-08T01:12:07Z

> I meant SSH Server, whoops!

Yes, ask in the cryptography mailing-list on how to get it running.

I use an proxy to do SSH though. For a deployed application you most
certainly use something like Apache, Lighty or Squid anyway.

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch
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Re: SSH client for Squeak?

2008-05-07T13:35:39Z

I meant SSH Server, whoops!

Deech

On Wed, May 7, 2008 at 3:34 PM, aditya siram <aditya.siram@...> wrote:

Does Squeak have an SSH client?

Deech

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