Nabble - Squeak - Morphic

[Ann] Next iteration of Fill handles available.

2007-10-02T12:51:58Z

[Ann] Next iteration of Fill handles available.

Hi all,

There is a new iteration of taming fills available on
bobs superswiki.

Taming Fills
http://209.143.91.36/super/730

It is in the form of a 3.9 project. (The handles
currently depend on MixedCurveMorphs being present.)

Lots of changes due to some great feedback.
The fills are much more interactive with the handles.

Cheers,

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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State of morphic ( long reply to Sig from [UI] Re: UI plan, my thoughts thread)

2007-08-26T17:49:50Z

[UI] Re: UI plan, my thoughts

Hi Sig,

Thanks for your interest and thanks for your
questions:

>What was fruits which came from morphic team before
you stopped developing?

Ill let Juan answer this too.

The work I did which got into 3.9 was
On polygons to smooth out smooth curves and then add
optional corners to mixed morphs.

On buttons and sliders to fix the targeting
mechanisms. This is a key reason why Nouri can do his
Easy Morphic Guis now but not before.

There is now a way to take a snapshot of any morph and
get a thumbnail image that can be resized and which
will provide on demand a popup image of the original.

There are fixes to internal logic for selecting list
items. And double clicking a selected item in an
inspector now works as it should.

Dans old double click demonstrater has been replaced
with an updated version.

A major cause of off by one errors and rounding and
truncation errors have been identified and language
has been introduced to prepare for fixing them.

Lots of little fixes.

>And what is the current state of morphic package.

There are two possible questions here.

1) What is the state of morphic as a whole once it is
loaded and in the image?

2) The other is what is the state of the morphic
packaging as mcz pieces in the repositories? They need
separate answers.

Morphic is there and it works in its essential.

There are bugs and clutter and annoyances. They dont
interfere with most uses.
Morphic code could benifit from some code review and
refactoring. For large values of some. :-)

>Does it have any maintainers?

Yes it does. At least one capable one in me. There are
others who are adding good things to it. And there of
course are the scratch and olpc projects which will be
sources of debugged code for future enhancements and
widgets.

Ill cover future directions in another report.

>I have to admit that morphic in its current state
requires a clean up.

Yes. It requires a review and clean up. It does not
require everything to be cleaned up all at once. Slow,
steady, progress counts in the long run. And will
often produce better results than massivly disruptive
efforts.

>Maybe starting from a scratch is a good decision.

No. Starting from scratch is a terrible decision.

Especially when you consider what you are proposing is
that someone who is not intimately familiar with
morphic start from scratch and build something that is
as complex and good as morphic is today. Without the
experience to avoid the mistakes that morphic has
encountered.

Tweak is what you come out with when the most
experienced squeak programmer rewrites the interface.
With support and with a patron to pay salaries and
bills.

Juans Morphic 3.0 is an experienced squeak programmers
efforts in creating something good based on past
experiences. As a Hobby with only self funded
resources. With out compatibility with current tools
or the ability to use what is as scafolding, it may or
may not make it off the ground. It is not something
one can hold ones breath for. It can not be ready
anytime soon and it will not be easy to integrate when
it does come out.

Better to start from the annoyances that morphic
provices and repair those; keeping the remaining
framework in place; and using the exquisite tools that
squeak provides to make rapid progress, more and
better mistakes and more and better learning
experiences.

I am leaving out Garys nearly published work, the UI
builder that got into 3.9, Nouris gui builder and the
potential of lambda message sends which are all
important to squeak and morphics future.

>Lately in squeak-dev there was note of someone who
doing clean-up ,
>called minimal morphic. He's task was to remove
dependencies from
>Etoys in basic Morphs package code.

This sounds like Juans efforts. The goal while
laudable is in practice somewhat unsellable. What
benifit is gotten by having less ability in squeak or
morphic? And no matter how careful one is in
minimizing morphic there will be things that you want
that inevitalbly will get broken in an lagre
minimization effort. Then you will find your
self-funded resources being spent to recreate the
stuff you already had.

Unless there is a real necessity massive minimization
is not something others will wish to adopt.

Which covers the state of morphic.
Now the other piece the state of morphic MC packages.

The current morphic--.mcz package is in size over a
megabyte.
This is for just the morphic mcz package. Morphic
extras and Etoys are separate packages ( I havent
looked into their size yet). The size is significant.
MC maintainence suffers non-linearly with size. So
maintaining Morphic in MC is not on for those with
limited resources. (of time and patience). I do my
fixes with changesets and goodie fileouts. And relie
on more resourced help (Edgar is a brick) to get these
into the packages.

The packages also need rethinking and reforming.
Currently simple fixes are likely to touch several
packages at once. The first attempts at packages may
not have found the right decouplings between packages.
Also how to you repackage glue once its been
deployed?

I read a lot of Christopher Alexander these days. In
the context of image maintence I find the packaging of
fixes to be an out of sequence step. I also find that
the mcz tool lacks sensativity to levels of scale.
That is the very first requirement of a good
transformation process.

I mention this here because this one change of tool
has made morphic maintence a much more difficult task
to find resources for. (Though I must admit I have
found ways of maintaining morphic that avoids my
involvement with the tool.)

So part of morphics state is waiting for the tools to
become more rational and better suited for squeak and
the tasks of squeak development.

And another part is trying to get the morphic package
better set to be maintained by the current tools.

I believe that small whitling steps. Removing leaf
classes after understanding their presence is the only
way forward that insures morphic continues to work as
we make is smaller.

Then with a better familiarity the natural
decompostion and decouplings can be found.

Repair, when done right is implosive, you are left
with fewer pieces that work better together and do
more that the old buggy stuff. And that direction has
the full support of my curiosity.

Hth

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

***
>Igor Stasenko siguctua at gmail.com
>Sun Aug 26 13:56:40 UTC 2007
>
>
>On 26/08/07, Juan Vuletich <juan at jvuletich.org>
wrote:
>> Hi Bert,
>>
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> > On Aug 25, 2007, at 19:27 , Juan Vuletich wrote:
>> >
>> >> I found little support for that from the Board
>> >
>> > You make that sound like the Board opposed any of
this. This is not
>> > the case, the Board so far has stayed out of
*any* technical advise,
>> > it is leaving these to the teams.
>> That's true.
>> > If anything, there was (unfortunately) little
support from the Morphic
>> > Team.
>> That's not so true. I was the team leader, so
support from the Morphic
>> Team basically meant support for myself. But what I
wanted to do would
>> have broken badly back compatibility, and would
have caused serious
>> trouble to Etoys users. It was a risky decision,
with good and bad
>> consequences for many people. Too much for the
Morphic Team (i.e. for
>> myself) to make. That's why I asked the community
and the Board for
>> support. Basically, the Board didn't take a
position, and the community
>> (almost all who said something) were against it.
>>
>
>What was fruits which came from morphic team before
you stopped developing?
>And what is the current state of morphic package,
does it have any
>maintainers?
>I have to admit that morphic in its current state
requires a clean up.
>Maybe starting from a scratch is a good decision.
>Lately in squeak-dev there was note of someone who
doing clean-up ,
>called minimal morphic. He's task was to remove
dependencies from
>Etoys in basic Morphs package code.
>
>Maybe first, before new team can start doing
something new, its better
>to make an overview to think about what is done, what
is started but
>not finished and what is need to be done?
>
>> I understand this, and it's ok. It is just that
after that, I started
>> doing all this in my own fork, the Morphic 3.0
image.
>>
>
***

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Re: Morphic Mailing List

2007-08-26T06:52:06Z

Brad Fuller wrote:
> HI Juan,
>
> I dont seem to be getting any message from the Morphic Mailing list. I
> checked, and my subscription is enabled. Does it have a problem?
>
> brad
>
>
>
Hi Brad,

It is working for me. And I get your mails from there too.

I hope you don't mind me copying this to the Morphic list.

Unfortunately I lost the admin password, and I don't feel like spending
much time on administering it. Does somebody volunteer? Do you all think
this list has any use at all?

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
www.jvuletich.org
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Re: [UI] Re: UI plan, my thoughts

2007-08-26T06:49:03Z

Hi Bert,

Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> On Aug 25, 2007, at 19:27 , Juan Vuletich wrote:
>
>> I found little support for that from the Board
>
> You make that sound like the Board opposed any of this. This is not
> the case, the Board so far has stayed out of *any* technical advise,
> it is leaving these to the teams.
That's true.
> If anything, there was (unfortunately) little support from the Morphic
> Team.
That's not so true. I was the team leader, so support from the Morphic
Team basically meant support for myself. But what I wanted to do would
have broken badly back compatibility, and would have caused serious
trouble to Etoys users. It was a risky decision, with good and bad
consequences for many people. Too much for the Morphic Team (i.e. for
myself) to make. That's why I asked the community and the Board for
support. Basically, the Board didn't take a position, and the community
(almost all who said something) were against it.

I understand this, and it's ok. It is just that after that, I started
doing all this in my own fork, the Morphic 3.0 image.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
www.jvuletich.org
>
> - Bert -
>

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Re: Re: [UI] UI plan, my thoughts

2007-08-25T20:46:31Z

Juan,

Thanks for bringing us up to date. That brings up a question.
Now that there is a SqueakLand image with the new Etoys, what is the direction
for including the newest (OLPC-based) Etoys in Squeak?
Anyone know?

brad

On Sat August 25 2007, Juan Vuletich wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I was part of the "Morphic Team" that was in charge of the Morphic
> packages in Squeak. I believe it was in the 3.7 or 3.8 days. My work
> there was splitting the big Morphic package into Morphic, Morphic Extras
> and Etoys. I also harvested some fixes from Jerome Peace.
>
> My idea was to stop adding code and start removing code from Morphic. I
> found little support for that from the Board and the community. And the
> next level of cleanup of dependencies between these packages was beyond
> my possibilities (and I believe beyond anyone's). So I quit and focused
> on Morphic 3. This project is not (yet) focused on the kind of problems
> you're talking about, but I'm interested in watching.
>
> (BTW, I was not part of MCP).
>
> Cheers,
> Juan Vuletich
> www.jvuletich.org
>
> Brad Fuller wrote:
> > On Sat August 25 2007, Douglas Rollwitz wrote:
> >> Hi;
> >>
> >> I also would like a more standard UI development tool,
> >> one that we can use for "normal" UI development. For
> >> a few years I extended a tool called BobsUI, trying to
> >> get it to that capability. The more I added to it,
> >> the more I noticed some fundamental problems with the
> >> code however, and decided it needed a big refactoring.
> >> I dropped supporting it due to a lack of time, but I
> >> would like to pick it back up, and have others
> >> participate as well. It needs a lot of work, but I
> >> also believe it can be a very good tool.
> >>
> >> While my goal for BobsUI is for it to be a standard
> >> business UI builder, it looks nothing like a standard
> >> UI builder. This is because I was trying to improve
> >> on the standard UI builders, and have it fit into the
> >> Squeak paradigm.
> >>
> >> I will be creating a BobsUI page on the swiki soon,
> >> which will go over the design and future direction I
> >> would like it to have. You can download BobsUI from
> >> the Squeak Map.
> >>
> >> Because of the work in BobsUI, I have come to the
> >> conclusion that the Moroh-HaloMorph-Halo relationship
> >> needs to be refactored. I actually did this once a
> >> few years ago, but lost the code in a hard disk crash.
> >> Currently I am working on recreating this code
> >> enhancement. I will write another email on that work.
> >
> > Note that there is a group that is cleaning up Morphic. You might contact
> > Juan Vuletich and join efforts.
> > Also: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3005
> >
> > I don't know how current the group is. I'll CC them to this message.
> >
> > brad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Morphic mailing list
> > Morphic@...
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic

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Re: Re: [UI] UI plan, my thoughts

2007-08-25T20:27:47Z

Hi Folks,

I was part of the "Morphic Team" that was in charge of the Morphic
packages in Squeak. I believe it was in the 3.7 or 3.8 days. My work
there was splitting the big Morphic package into Morphic, Morphic Extras
and Etoys. I also harvested some fixes from Jerome Peace.

My idea was to stop adding code and start removing code from Morphic. I
found little support for that from the Board and the community. And the
next level of cleanup of dependencies between these packages was beyond
my possibilities (and I believe beyond anyone's). So I quit and focused
on Morphic 3. This project is not (yet) focused on the kind of problems
you're talking about, but I'm interested in watching.

(BTW, I was not part of MCP).

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
www.jvuletich.org

Brad Fuller wrote:

> On Sat August 25 2007, Douglas Rollwitz wrote:
>
>> Hi;
>>
>> I also would like a more standard UI development tool,
>> one that we can use for "normal" UI development. For
>> a few years I extended a tool called BobsUI, trying to
>> get it to that capability. The more I added to it,
>> the more I noticed some fundamental problems with the
>> code however, and decided it needed a big refactoring.
>> I dropped supporting it due to a lack of time, but I
>> would like to pick it back up, and have others
>> participate as well. It needs a lot of work, but I
>> also believe it can be a very good tool.
>>
>> While my goal for BobsUI is for it to be a standard
>> business UI builder, it looks nothing like a standard
>> UI builder. This is because I was trying to improve
>> on the standard UI builders, and have it fit into the
>> Squeak paradigm.
>>
>> I will be creating a BobsUI page on the swiki soon,
>> which will go over the design and future direction I
>> would like it to have. You can download BobsUI from
>> the Squeak Map.
>>
>> Because of the work in BobsUI, I have come to the
>> conclusion that the Moroh-HaloMorph-Halo relationship
>> needs to be refactored. I actually did this once a
>> few years ago, but lost the code in a hard disk crash.
>> Currently I am working on recreating this code
>> enhancement. I will write another email on that work.
>>
>
> Note that there is a group that is cleaning up Morphic. You might contact Juan
> Vuletich and join efforts.
> Also: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3005
>
> I don't know how current the group is. I'll CC them to this message.
>
> brad
> _______________________________________________
> Morphic mailing list
> Morphic@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
>
>
>

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Re: [UI] UI plan, my thoughts

2007-08-25T19:12:52Z

On Sat August 25 2007, Douglas Rollwitz wrote:

> Hi;
>
> I also would like a more standard UI development tool,
> one that we can use for "normal" UI development. For
> a few years I extended a tool called BobsUI, trying to
> get it to that capability. The more I added to it,
> the more I noticed some fundamental problems with the
> code however, and decided it needed a big refactoring.
> I dropped supporting it due to a lack of time, but I
> would like to pick it back up, and have others
> participate as well. It needs a lot of work, but I
> also believe it can be a very good tool.
>
> While my goal for BobsUI is for it to be a standard
> business UI builder, it looks nothing like a standard
> UI builder. This is because I was trying to improve
> on the standard UI builders, and have it fit into the
> Squeak paradigm.
>
> I will be creating a BobsUI page on the swiki soon,
> which will go over the design and future direction I
> would like it to have. You can download BobsUI from
> the Squeak Map.
>
> Because of the work in BobsUI, I have come to the
> conclusion that the Moroh-HaloMorph-Halo relationship
> needs to be refactored. I actually did this once a
> few years ago, but lost the code in a hard disk crash.
> Currently I am working on recreating this code
> enhancement. I will write another email on that work.

Note that there is a group that is cleaning up Morphic. You might contact Juan
Vuletich and join efforts.
Also: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3005

I don't know how current the group is. I'll CC them to this message.

brad
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Re: Re: Taming fills - gradient handles

2007-08-21T20:46:14Z

Hi Edgar,

That's interesting.

Leads to a lot of other questions.
Do you know who gvc is?
Where the package might be found?
How old is the package?
And does it work with 3dot9 or 10 or any of the
current universe packages?

I don't really need the answers because I was just
answering Subbu's question. But curiosity is curiosity
so they just came up.

Cheers amigo.

Yours in curiosity and friendship, --Jerome Peace

--- "Edgar J. De Cleene" <edgardec2001@...>
wrote:

>
>
>
> El 8/21/07 10:38 PM, "Jerome Peace"
> <peace_the_dreamer@...> escribió:
>
> > I am blissfully ignorant of SVG and any efforts by
> > squeak in that direction. The OPLC crowd is deep
> in
> > working with what they¹ve got. And the squeak-dev
> > crowd is deep into the non-graphical applications.
> So
> > I don¹t see who might have the interest/resources
> to
> > persue SVG for squeak. Of course with squeak good
> > things tend to pop out of the woodwork from time
> to
> > time. So maybe someone with an itch, time and a
> patron
> > will offer something like that.
>
> Exist SVG-Morphic-gvc.3.mcz, I don't know if newer
> versions.
>
> Edgar
>
>
>

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Re: Taming fills - gradient handles

2007-08-21T19:38:57Z

Re: Taming fills - gradient handles

Hi Subbu,

Thank you for your response.

--- subbukk <subbukk@...> wrote:

> On Friday 17 August 2007 3:33 am, you wrote:
> > Hi Subbu,
> >
> > I have put a preliminary demo project up at
> >
> > http://209.143.91.36/super/730
> Sliding handles in place to change fills is a lot
> easier.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Can you describe
how this differs from what the bowtie handles do?

>It is in consonance
> with Morphic's directness principle.
>
> Could this be made real-time? Currently, the changes
>take effect only on mouse up.

Ah, I was hoping I could get away with that. I had
feared updating per move would slow down the
responsiveness. Now I guess well have to try it and
find out.

[Some time later...] Ive tried various schemes for
real time and concluded it is not good to do this
pass. I agree that realtime is better it is also much
trickier to program if I want to keep the other
features of the handles like adding new ones and
deleting the ones that go off the ends. If deleting
doesnt wait for mouse up it leads to complications
that would be a project in their own right to fix.

On the other hand I agree with you that realtime would
be nicer. So I will keep it as a goal for a future
pass when the clever part of me figures out a good way
to make it work.

> The fill line should have an explicit origin and
extensible end instead of having symmetric ends.
>
Ha. And I was so pleased to have figured out how to
make the ends symmetric. Well have to try it your way
too.

> BTW, do you know what happened to SVG support in
> Squeak? This is a big gaping
> hole. Any idea why it got dropped?
>
I am blissfully ignorant of SVG and any efforts by
squeak in that direction. The OPLC crowd is deep in
working with what theyve got. And the squeak-dev
crowd is deep into the non-graphical applications. So
I dont see who might have the interest/resources to
persue SVG for squeak. Of course with squeak good
things tend to pop out of the woodwork from time to
time. So maybe someone with an itch, time and a patron
will offer something like that.

[Addendum... Brad Fuller has started a UI list. I will
bet at least some of the people on that list will be
curious about SVG].

My progress on this application was in part due to a
five week free period which ends this week. So
further work will probably be on a slower time scale.

Again, thanks for your comments and help.

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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Re: Taming fills - gradient handles

2007-08-17T18:45:26Z

Jerome,

cool ideas. I like it. I don't know what I'd use it for. But, gradients are
cool and pleasing and I'm sure I'd find use for this. It's a nice compliment
to all the other neat things morph do.

On Thu August 16 2007 3:03 pm, Jerome Peace wrote:

> Hi Subbu,
>
> I have put a preliminary demo project up at
>
> http://209.143.91.36/super/730
>
> Which implements gradient handles along the lines you
> suggested.
>
> Most all the magic is in the long doit. And none of
> the new stuff has been set into menu items.
>
> Your suggestions proved very fruitful and I am pleased
> with how the handle behaviors turned out.
>
> So any feed back from you or your keen eyed daughter
> would be welcome.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________
>_________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your
> story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Morphic mailing list
> Morphic@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic

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Taming fills - gradient handles

2007-08-16T16:03:36Z

Hi Subbu,

I have put a preliminary demo project up at

http://209.143.91.36/super/730

Which implements gradient handles along the lines you
suggested.

Most all the magic is in the long doit. And none of
the new stuff has been set into menu items.

Your suggestions proved very fruitful and I am pleased
with how the handle behaviors turned out.

So any feed back from you or your keen eyed daughter
would be welcome.

Cheers,

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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[ANN] Taming Fills

2007-08-08T19:19:20Z

[ANN] Taming Fills

Hi Subbu,

Thank you for your comments.

I was hoping you would notice my work and I would get
the kind of feedback you have given.

Now, I would like to know what you mean by them.

Can you draw me a picture of what your handles look
like?

My decision on four handles (an their current colors)
are a first pass. And I have found better ideas come
out of the woodwork in second and third passes.

I was mostly aiming on getting the functionality to
work on this pass.

The dismiss handle is technically surperfluous (you
can call up a halo and dismiss the handles that way).
By anchoring the last corner of the square it helps
visulization.

The brown anchor is the origin and serves as host to
the others.

The blue and yellow handle in their shifted version
are the unlimited actions.
They are complimetary.

Blue scaleRotate is the analog of a polar
transformation (angle and radius)
and works as you describe the second handle to work.
while
Yellow stretchReflect is the analog of a cartesian
transformation ( scalling x and y separately ). And
works like the yellow growth handle works on the halo.
Except my yellow handle allows for reflection.

The unshifted handles are constrained s.t. the blue
mimics its halo handle and the yellow can only scale
and reflect w/o changing the aspect ratio. The yellow
halo handle behaves that way currently when it is
shifted. Except my yellow handle allows for
reflection.

My experience is that you want the handles to be
limited in their normal operation and unlimited in
special operation. That provides the user a choice not
to change invariants such as aspect ratio, in the case
of the yellow handle, or scale, in the case of the
blue.

My current thought is to substitute a checkbox for the
shift key. With both handles being either limited or
unlimited as the check box gets toggled.

I did add balloon help to the handles to indicate
their purpose. I think your comments show that neither
the shiftkey nor the balloon help is a good way to
convey that to the hands on user. That's an insight
worth having too.

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

***
>subbukk subbukk at gmail.com
>Wed Aug 8 12:29:08 UTC 2007
>
>
>On Tuesday 07 August 2007 11:39 pm, Jerome Peace
wrote:
>> Solution: Have handles for the fill that allow
>> manipulation of all the parameters until the user
is
>> satisfied. Then allow the removal of those handles.
>Jerome,
>
>It is nice to be able to control the fills directly
through handles, but the
>handles are too many.

>A simple 'rubber band' with two handles (anchored and

>movable) is sufficient.

What do you mean by rubberband?

Circular gradient will need a ellipse with two
>orthogonal 'rubber band' lines.

Lost me here. Where do the lines go and what do they
do thats different?

>
>Use a color dropper on a handle to change the color.

Ah but fills can be much more glorious than two
colors. I was thinking of something like a slider
with multiple slides each one capable of defining an
new color on the ramp. And of course a midpoint or two
to add even more colors.

Drag anchored handle to
>change origin and moveable handle to scale and
rotate. Shift click on the
>rubber band to dismiss the handle. This would be
consistent with operations
on mixed curve and border width etc.

Shift-move on the blue handle does scale and rotate.
But try shift-moving on the yellow. That is what it is
really there for.
And try it on a bitmapfill.

I can see the check box is really whats needed.

I want to see what your rubberband looks like.

Thanks again for you help.

>
>Regards .. Subbu
***

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[ANN] Taming Fills

2007-08-07T12:09:35Z

[ANN] Taming Fills
Hi All,

Context: You have a morph with a gradient or bit map
fill and you would like to adjust the scale and
orientation to your liking.

Problem: The only way to adjust things is one
parameter at a time from the fill menu. Furthermore
once you have selected to adjust a parameter a handle
is created at the cursor (which was doing menu
selection just a moment ago.).. And the previous
setting of the parameter is lost.

Solution: Have handles for the fill that allow
manipulation of all the parameters until the user is
satisfied. Then allow the removal of those handles.

Working code for evaluation is available on Bobs
superswiki:

http://209.143.91.36/super/730
Taming Fills

and a report has been started on mantis:

http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6594
0006594: [Fix] [Enh] A better way to handle
Balloon-Fill adjustments

Feedback appreciated. Send kudos to the lists and
technical feedback to mantis.

Yours is service and curiosity, --Jerome Peace.

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Full and fun squeak

2007-07-07T20:07:42Z

Hi all,

3.9 and 3.10 will run some of the new games from the

Small projects for Squeak on the $100 laptop page at:

http://www.swa.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/projects/olpc/

Sokoban.13May2051.cs.gz
Games-DiceWars.st.gz
(gunzip, then drop files on an open squeak window)

Abalone-pd.42.mcz
(drop on a squeak window)

Games-G11PacmanOLPC.sar
(This did not work. First problem a missing
MP3 sound stream class.)

I haven't tried the breakout game yet.

The games I could play had a solid quality to them.

All could use a wee bit more documentation/help info.

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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Re: Implementing stuff in morphic 3.

2007-07-06T18:34:11Z

Hi Jerome,

I apologize for the delay. My second daugher, Diana was born on 6/28,
and I'm slowly coming back.

Jerome Peace escribió:
> The size of the image is secondary. The size that
> matters is the peak size the application requires as
> it runs. With graphic intensive things you can hit the
> ceiling by requiring too much memory for just the
> intermediate forms.
>
Setting Display depth to 16 (instead of 32) reduces memory usage
significantly. I should study Form allocation, to see if there's
something to optimize, though.
> The other showstoppers for me are trying to use the
> halos in ways I "know" work and running into the fact
> they haven't been implemented for your morphs.
>
> And drag and drop doesn't work. So I can't figure out
> how to embed one morph in another.
>
>
Yes, those still missing. I do it all with code. Quite easy, anyway.
> You are familiar with what you wrote in a way that I
> am not. I am more or less poking at things from the
> outside. And I lose interest after about finding 5-9
> (seven plus or minus two) things that don't work.
>
> Then its a matter of waiting until you make progress.
>
>
That's ok.

> I know you are serious about this. So I would
> encourage you to get an official enough status for
> this that we can have a catagory for it on mantis**.
> The I can turn may annoyances with the way things work
> into bug reports. Which will help ratchet progress and
> may even help document the ideas and issues we come
> across as you develop your baby.
>
>
>

Ok. I agree.

>> I have
>> modified lots of
>> things in "old" Morphic, and it will not be that
>> easy.
>>
>
> Like what?
>
>
>

I didn't log all I did. But if you browse OldMorph, OldMorphExtension,
and OldPasteUpMorph, you'll see I removed many instance variables. I
also removed a lot of methods, and modified their senders. As new Morphs
live in an old World, to avoid needing methods in Morph that I didn't
want, I removed their senders. Basically, I feel free to delete whatever
I don't like, anywhere in the system.

>
>> They would need to convince
>> me that I was wrong,
>> and to show me a better way, for me to follow them.
>> After all this is
>> exactly what Dan Ingalls always did.
>>
>
> Dan had the benifit of a nacent system and a paycheck.
>
>

>> And at the end he was always right.
>>
>
> He didn't really get to the end. He went back to take
> care of the family farm and the team he had assembled
> broke up. See the references in Berts comment on
> fabrik.
>
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-June/118049.html
>

Ok, but what I meant is that he did Smalltalk the way he felt, without
worrying if others would understand him or not. And I really believe
nothing better than Smalltalk was made. I.e. I believe Smalltalk is
better than C++, C#, Java, Python, Ruby, Self, etc.

> -----
>
> In conclusion,
>
> I will support you as much as I can from the outside
> by playing with things as you improve them. I am not
> too interested in diving into your separate morphic
> 3.0 code.
>
> If you get a catagory for Morphic 3.0 set up on Mantis
> I will write bug reports as I come across them. I very
> much recommend this approach.
>
> I am entertaining my curiosity by coding the
> place/morph layers concept in the current development
> stream of squeak. I am going to do what is practical
> to do but I am keeping in mind your concept of each
> morph having its own coord system. So if you look over
> my work and I yours we should benifit from each others
> insights.
>
>
> Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace
>
>
> --------
>
> **This should probably be a catgory under the squeak
> project rather than its own separate project. That is
> due to limitations of mantis in dealling amoung
> projects. Ken Causey may be able to provide some
> advice. _Jer
>
>

Great!
Thanks,
Juan Vuletich

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Re: Re: Implementing stuff in morphic 3.

2007-06-25T00:26:10Z

>
>>> I also think it would be the right way to
>>> incrementally develop morphic 3.0.
>>>
>>>
>> Stef also asked me that. Unfortunately to start
>> doing that I would have
>> to halt the development of Morphic 3 itself.
>
> Yeah, at this point it would be a big disruption. But
> maybe keep it in mind if the project itself calls for
> a big disruption.

What I was saying is that if you want that other people
give a try and at the end helps you need to offer them
a way to work on their image and to be able to run side by side
Morphic3 and Morphic.

>> I do what I do because it is what I
>> need. I invite everybody to participate. But I won't
>> change what I'm doing to seduce others.

The main point is to make sure that others feel comfortable enough to
help.

Stef

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Re: Implementing stuff in morphic 3.

2007-06-24T18:21:55Z

--- Juan Vuletich <juan@...> wrote:

> > Running your image under the classic os vm crashes
> the
> > image and often the system before I can do too
> much of
> > any type of exploring.
> >
> >
> That's too bad. I wonder what would be the reason.
> My image is smaller
> than a standard 3.9 or 3.10 image, and uses less
> memory. I would like
> you to be able to use my image without major
> problems.

The size of the image is secondary. The size that
matters is the peak size the application requires as
it runs. With graphic intensive things you can hit the
ceiling by requiring too much memory for just the
intermediate forms.

The other showstoppers for me are trying to use the
halos in ways I "know" work and running into the fact
they haven't been implemented for your morphs.

And drag and drop doesn't work. So I can't figure out
how to embed one morph in another.

You are familiar with what you wrote in a way that I
am not. I am more or less poking at things from the
outside. And I lose interest after about finding 5-9
(seven plus or minus two) things that don't work.

Then its a matter of waiting until you make progress.

I know you are serious about this. So I would
encourage you to get an official enough status for
this that we can have a catagory for it on mantis**.
The I can turn may annoyances with the way things work
into bug reports. Which will help ratchet progress and
may even help document the ideas and issues we come
across as you develop your baby.

> > I also think it would be the right way to
> > incrementally develop morphic 3.0.
> >
> >
> Stef also asked me that. Unfortunately to start
> doing that I would have
> to halt the development of Morphic 3 itself.

Yeah, at this point it would be a big disruption. But
maybe keep it in mind if the project itself calls for
a big disruption.

> I have
> modified lots of
> things in "old" Morphic, and it will not be that
> easy.

Like what?

> I have very
> little time available for this project, and I'm
> trying to spend it
> carefully.

I know that situation.

> >And we must follow them if they
> >are to let us lead.
> >
> >
> I think I don't agree with this.

All my experience has shown this to be true. I need to
understand where other are and wish to go inorder to
provide a path they wish to follow.

There has to be something they want in what we do
inorder for them to participate.

This does not have to be important to us as we
experiment. What I want is the learning that comes
from the task. I would like to see my better ideas
widely distributed because that will be more useful
and generate more and better feedback as well as
dividends.

> I do what I do because it is what I
> need. I invite everybody to participate. But I won't
> change what I'm doing to seduce others.

> They would need to convince
> me that I was wrong,
> and to show me a better way, for me to follow them.
> After all this is
> exactly what Dan Ingalls always did.

Dan had the benifit of a nacent system and a paycheck.

> And at the end he was always right.

He didn't really get to the end. He went back to take
care of the family farm and the team he had assembled
broke up. See the references in Berts comment on
fabrik.

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-June/118049.html

-----

In conclusion,

I will support you as much as I can from the outside
by playing with things as you improve them. I am not
too interested in diving into your separate morphic
3.0 code.

If you get a catagory for Morphic 3.0 set up on Mantis
I will write bug reports as I come across them. I very
much recommend this approach.

I am entertaining my curiosity by coding the
place/morph layers concept in the current development
stream of squeak. I am going to do what is practical
to do but I am keeping in mind your concept of each
morph having its own coord system. So if you look over
my work and I yours we should benifit from each others
insights.

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

--------

**This should probably be a catgory under the squeak
project rather than its own separate project. That is
due to limitations of mantis in dealling amoung
projects. Ken Causey may be able to provide some
advice. _Jer

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Re: NewMorphic how do you compose coordinate systems?

2007-06-24T17:19:37Z

Hi Jerome,

Jerome Peace escribió:

> Hi Juan,
>
> I am making a run at coding the morphic with
> alternating location and morphs. (in 3.9-3.10)
> And I realized I don't understand something about new
> morphic.
>
> When you have a morphic tree of several morphs deep.
> How do you compose the coord system transformations to
> get from the inner moprh to the outer world?
>
> Think of a really horrible case and explain that. (
> e.g. alternating cartesian and xlog stuff several
> iterations deep.) How would new morphic handle that?
>
> Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace
>

The only reasonable way: draw something "horrible" on the screen!
Really, a xlog system will "xlogize" all it displays.

So a cartesian system in a xlog system will look like a xlog system. A
polar system would look "xlogized" i.e. with a weird zoom in at the left
end and zoom out at the right end.

If you put an xlog system inside the other, it would compose the
transformations the same way: the left end will have way too much zoom
in, and the right end too much zoom out. Most likely not very useful anyway.

Does this make sense to you?

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
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Re: Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

2007-06-24T17:14:49Z

Hi Herbert,

You're right. In fact we should be careful enough to support even higher
precision numerical representations, if the image has support for them.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Herbert König escribió:

> Hello Juan,
>
> JV> pixels to books of several kilometers. But I want float coordinates and
> JV> multiple nonlinear coordinate systems in the same world. I don't want to
> JV> be restricted to Cartesian with a single scale all over the system. In a
>
> that's good to hear! In road design and survey even 64 Bit Floats
> aren't enough. A few trigonometric calculations and you loose your 1mm
> precision.
>
> Sorry, first attempt went to your private email.
>
> Cheers
>
> Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@...
>
> _______________________________________________
> Morphic mailing list
> Morphic@...
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
>
>

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Re: Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs? (longish reply to Matthew)

2007-06-24T17:13:07Z

Hi Matthew,

Matthew Fulmer escribió:

> On Sat, Jun 23, 2007 at 09:29:38AM -0300, Juan Vuletich wrote:
>
>> Matthew, could you elaborate a bit on "jiggly morphs" and 2.5 D? Aren't
>> we in 2.5D?
>>
>
> For "jiggly morphs", I am thinking of the quite visially
> appealing non-linear transformations used in Beryl:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_%28window_manager%29
> Of the videos on the subject, this one demonstrates the effect
> the most succintly: (warning! sound!)
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FeXVUz5nD4&NR=1
> Most of that would be possible with a modied coordinate system,
> but some of it would require a warped GL surface.
>
>

This kind of stuff could be done in Morphic 3. But performance won't be
good until we go to OpenGL or such.
> For 2.5d, I am thinking of something like Merlin, where Morphs
> are 2-d entities, but exist as camera-facing sprites in a 3-d
> world (dormant project; no good screenshots)
> http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/gui.html
>
This is cool. But Morphic 3 is just 2d with zOrder. (This is usually
called 2.5d). So, It won't be possible.
> or, croquet, where 2-d entities have location and orientation in
> a 3-d island:
> http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/Screenshots
>
>

Yes, but for a full 3d environment, we have croquet, don't we?

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
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NewMorphic how do you compose coordinate systems?

2007-06-24T13:57:48Z

Hi Juan,

I am making a run at coding the morphic with
alternating location and morphs. (in 3.9-3.10)
And I realized I don't understand something about new
morphic.

When you have a morphic tree of several morphs deep.
How do you compose the coord system transformations to
get from the inner moprh to the outer world?

Think of a really horrible case and explain that. (
e.g. alternating cartesian and xlog stuff several
iterations deep.) How would new morphic handle that?

Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace

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Re: Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

2007-06-24T01:56:22Z

Hello Juan,

JV> pixels to books of several kilometers. But I want float coordinates and
JV> multiple nonlinear coordinate systems in the same world. I don't want to
JV> be restricted to Cartesian with a single scale all over the system. In a

that's good to hear! In road design and survey even 64 Bit Floats
aren't enough. A few trigonometric calculations and you loose your 1mm
precision.

Sorry, first attempt went to your private email.

Cheers

Herbert mailto:herbertkoenig@...

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Re: Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs? (longish reply to Matthew)

2007-06-23T16:36:20Z

On Sat, Jun 23, 2007 at 09:29:38AM -0300, Juan Vuletich wrote:
> Matthew, could you elaborate a bit on "jiggly morphs" and 2.5 D? Aren't
> we in 2.5D?

For "jiggly morphs", I am thinking of the quite visially
appealing non-linear transformations used in Beryl:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_%28window_manager%29
Of the videos on the subject, this one demonstrates the effect
the most succintly: (warning! sound!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FeXVUz5nD4&NR=1
Most of that would be possible with a modied coordinate system,
but some of it would require a warped GL surface.

For 2.5d, I am thinking of something like Merlin, where Morphs
are 2-d entities, but exist as camera-facing sprites in a 3-d
world (dormant project; no good screenshots)
http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/gui.html
or, croquet, where 2-d entities have location and orientation in
a 3-d island:
http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/Screenshots

--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
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Re: Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

2007-06-23T14:32:53Z

On 23 juin 07, at 14:35, Juan Vuletich wrote:

> Hi Stef,
>
> You suggested that to me some time ago and I did. Sophie uses
> smallintegers for coordinates. This is ok for books, to go from
> printer pixels to books of several kilometers. But I want float
> coordinates and multiple nonlinear coordinate systems in the same
> world. I don't want to be restricted to Cartesian with a single
> scale all over the system. In a morph, the number 3 could mean 3
> milimeters, and in another it could mean 3 astronomic unit (mean
> distance from the earth to the sun), or 3 degrees of latitude
> north, or 3 db or whatever.

I thought that they used something new with a strange name for having
better precision....
I cannot find the name anymore.

>
> Cheers,
> Juan Vuletich
>
> Stéphane Ducasse escribió:
>> Juan
>>
>> did you check the unit used in Sophie. Because told me that their
>> units are quite good.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>> On 22 juin 07, at 03:11, Juan Vuletich wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jerome,
>>>
>>> Jerome Peace escribió:
>>>> Hi Juan,
>>>>
>>>> Cool.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for listening.
>>>> I've actually followed progress to know how much you
>>>> advanced things. (Real time performance and the color
>>>> background fix. Great steady progress.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>> :) Thanks.
>>>> I am using things on an old 400hz iMac running OS9.1.
>>>> I'm using one of JMM's old macClassic vms. So I need
>>>> to find out if you changed anything in th vm you
>>>> distribute with the system?
>>>>
>>> Not at all. I should delete the VM from the zip file. It is
>>> misleading.
>>> Ok. Done.
>>> So, you are doing a serious performance test there!
>>> Unfortunately, the
>>> Morphic 3 stuff uses Floats for coordinates, and I haven't worked on
>>> performance yet, so everything should be slow...
>>>> I can try somethings that blow my mac out to the water
>>>> complete with the macbomb system crash box. That only
>>>> happened while using a low memory allocation. I'm
>>>> having better luck when I give the vm more room.
>>>>
>>> I believe the same should happen with any Squeak image, right?
>>>> I am about to try your new addr. If this doesn't
>>>> bounce then were golden.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yep, here I am.
>>>> The last try missed probably due to some typing on my
>>>> part.
>>>>
>>> Now I'm working on scrolling and clipping. I hope to publish
>>> something soon.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Juan Vuletich
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Morphic mailing list
>>> Morphic@...
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/morphic
>>
>>
>

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Re: Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

2007-06-23T06:35:45Z

Hi Stef,

You suggested that to me some time ago and I did. Sophie uses
smallintegers for coordinates. This is ok for books, to go from printer
pixels to books of several kilometers. But I want float coordinates and
multiple nonlinear coordinate systems in the same world. I don't want to
be restricted to Cartesian with a single scale all over the system. In a
morph, the number 3 could mean 3 milimeters, and in another it could
mean 3 astronomic unit (mean distance from the earth to the sun), or 3
degrees of latitude north, or 3 db or whatever.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Stéphane Ducasse escribió:

> Juan
>
> did you check the unit used in Sophie. Because told me that their
> units are quite good.
>
> Stef
>
>
> On 22 juin 07, at 03:11, Juan Vuletich wrote:
>
>> Hi Jerome,
>>
>> Jerome Peace escribió:
>>> Hi Juan,
>>>
>>> Cool.
>>>
>>> Thanks for listening.
>>> I've actually followed progress to know how much you
>>> advanced things. (Real time performance and the color
>>> background fix. Great steady progress.)
>>>
>>>
>> :) Thanks.
>>> I am using things on an old 400hz iMac running OS9.1.
>>> I'm using one of JMM's old macClassic vms. So I need
>>> to find out if you changed anything in th vm you
>>> distribute with the system?
>>>
>> Not at all. I should delete the VM from the zip file. It is misleading.
>> Ok. Done.
>> So, you are doing a serious performance test there! Unfortunately, the
>> Morphic 3 stuff uses Floats for coordinates, and I haven't worked on
>> performance yet, so everything should be slow...
>>> I can try somethings that blow my mac out to the water
>>> complete with the macbomb system crash box. That only
>>> happened while using a low memory allocation. I'm
>>> having better luck when I give the vm more room.
>>>
>> I believe the same should happen with any Squeak image, right?
>>> I am about to try your new addr. If this doesn't
>>> bounce then were golden.
>>>
>>>
>> Yep, here I am.
>>> The last try missed probably due to some typing on my
>>> part.
>>>
>> Now I'm working on scrolling and clipping. I hope to publish
>> something soon.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Juan Vuletich
>>
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Re: Do morphs have locations or do locations have morphs? (longish reply to Matthew)

2007-06-23T06:29:38Z

Hi Jerome,

It seems we came to the same ideas independently!

I also had an "aha" moment when I realized that extent and coordinate
system were intrinsic to the morph, but location was in fact external to
it. Currently, in Morphic 3, location is an ivar in a Morph. But I
didn't like it when I added it. Maybe it is best to do as you say, to
relate morphs and locations in the tree.

I am really convinced these ideas deserve a lot of experimenting and
more thought. Don't discard them. The effort is worth!

Matthew, could you elaborate a bit on "jiggly morphs" and 2.5 D? Aren't
we in 2.5D?

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich

Jerome Peace escribió:

> Hi Matthew,
>
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> The assertions comes from the comments I added to some
> (pseudo) code I wrote. And as this is still in the
> user story stage I blew one.
>
> "more than one morph may share a location."
> Would have made more sense (to an outsider**) if I had
> said:
> "more than one submorph may share a location."
>
> The hierarchy tree would be a morph layer then a
> location layer then the submorph layer etc.
> each morph and location (I am beginning to prefer the
> word place) can appear only once in the hierarchy and
> there can be no loops.
>
> Morphs themselves would not have intrinsic location
> just extent. Morphs wouldn't be anywhere until you put
> them some place.
>
> The other part of your question is answered by saying
> that locations are local.
> The owner of a location is a morph. The location is
> given in coords appropriate to its owners coordinate
> system.
> The location is a place that can contain other morphs
> (each with their own coord systems)
> There is a decoupling between morphs and the location
> a morph is at.
>
> This would allow you to do interesting things. Which I
> am still working out in my head.
>
> What I was describing (probably poorly) was an aha
> moment. This may or may not pan out.
> Or it may pan out but not be worth the effort to
> implement.
>
> It certainly isn't meant to stand up to much scrutiny
> right at the moment.
> Indeed it isn't even at the level of a user story.
> (Which would describe what is desired)
>
> The user story is:
> I wish squeak didn't have all these bugs due to
> transformation morphs. And
> I wish squeak had polygon morphs and rectangle morphs
> that worked the same way when tilted or stretched.
> Particularly with respect to their embeded submorphs.
>
> There is a notion (in my head) that Morphic skipped a
> step by using rectanges as a basis for morphs without
> having a simple place morph based on a point.
>
> Based on work I've done on polygons and my (somewhat
> poor) understanding of what Juan is trying to
> accomplish I've come to an idea I think will prove
> important. Now comes the interesting part to see if I
> can make it work and find a way to make code and a
> morphic of it.
> Or to satisfy my curiosity and decide its not worth
> more effort.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
>
>> [Morphic] Do morphs have locations or do locations
>>
> have morphs?
>
>> Matthew Fulmer tapplek at gmail.com
>> Fri Jun 22 01:50:15 UTC 2007
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 21, 2007 at 01:36:09PM -0700, Jerome
>>
> Peace wrote:
>
>>> assertions
>>>
>>> " each location in at most one morph"
>>>
>> This assertion appears to conflict with
>>
>>
>>> "a location is a sublocation of its owner"
>>>
>> and
>>
>>
>>> "more than one morph may share a location."
>>>
>> if one is using world-relative locations. Is this not
>>
> the case?
>
> Nope see above.
>
>
>> What is a location? Parent morph + relative 2d
>>
> location?
>
> Hmm. The way I want to do it morphs don't have a
> location. They are at a location (that belongs to the
> next morph up the line.) The locations that a morph
> contains are relative to the morphs reference
> location.
>
> So you could move the location inside its refence
> morph and everything at that place would move with it.
> Or you could "beam" a morph from a location to
> another location (maybe at a different level) and that
> would also move everything belonging to the morph.
>
> Righ† now we do something like that by flexing a
> morph.
> And then we unflex them when we are done. This hairs
> up the works. Thats because morphs are coupled to
> their location by ivars. If you break that coupling
> you gain something. The question is will it be enough
> to overcome the overhead of adding extra layers to the
> tree. This might come out either way.
>
> My instinct tells me I will at least learn something
> interesting by persuing this idea. There is a
> potential "big win" in terms of simplicity.
>
> Smalltalk afterall started as genius on the half page.
> It deserves to have "simplicity with great power
> attached to it" reflected throughout its design.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Also, what is in a Parent morph? location + rotation
>>
> + >shear + scale?
>
> I'm not sure yet. This is one of those things that
> won't settle down (and behave like a good idea) until
> I play with it some more. The important thing at the
> beginning is to be wrong in interesting ways; try a
> lot; and learn things.
>
>
>
>> or is there some more general transform system that
>> could handle funky stuff like jiggly morphs,
>>
>
> Ha, what's a jiggly morph?
>
> or allow morphs to be 2.5d? That would be nice.
>
> Morphs are already 2.5d sort of kind of maybe?
>
> My original project was to implement a kissakae system
> in squeak.
> Morphic was close to there but not quite.
>
> Yours in curiosity and service, --Jerome Peace
>
> **I knew perfectly well what I meant to say, even if I
> didn't say it. ;-)
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: NewMorphic Feedback (1 source control)

2007-06-23T06:22:23Z

Hi Jerome,

Jerome Peace escribió:

>
>> performance yet, so everything should be slow...
>>
>
> Actually the iMac is well designed and the performance
> is responsive. I can resize the example at about the
> same speed as I am used to. Of Course there not a lot
> else going on at the same time. So its not much of a
> burden. The real problem is I can usually find things
> that bring everything to a screeching halt within 15
> minutes. The copy handle is good for that.
>
> The balloon engine is probably the reason for the
> speed. Two or three version ago I did give up because
> things were too slow.
>
> The system is slow when not just displaying your
> morphs. Bringing up a browser or an inspector feels
> like it takes forever (compared to what I'm used to.
> lol).
>
> The balloon engine is also probably responsible for
> the clipping bugs. It has some very bad rounding
> errors in it. A lot bugs which I'm good enough to find
> but not knowledgable enough to fix.
>
>
>

I think we need serious work on performance too. But now is too early
for that in M3.

WRT Balloon, it is great. It is fast and it is there. I know it has
bugs, but now I'm focusing on the morph themselves. It is good to have
balloon around to get morphs working. Later, maybe it could be replaced
by Cairo as in Sophie. Or perhaps we can enhance Balloon. Or use some
other engine. Neither Ballon nor Cairo are the final solution for M3
because they only support affine (i.e. linear) transforms.

Cheers,
Juan Vuletich
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