Screenshots of GUI applications (again)

[Christoph Haas-2]

Dear list...

the matter has been discussed at least twice already. Roberto C. Sanchez
brought the matter back up in January 2008. The response was very positive
but nobody wanted to implement that. Several Debian end users in my circle
would surely be happy about having screenshots available for GUI
applications to get a quick impression of how different GUI programs
look/feel like without tediously installing, trying and deinstalling them.
The "Description:" doesn't really give a good mental picture and different
maintainers choose different wordings there which makes applications hard
to compare by just reading the text.

So I'd like to get things moving. I assume we had to do this:

- Propose a new optional debian/control field "X-Screenshot:" pointing to
  an URL serving an image file (PNG, JPG)
  [debian-devel-announce as soon as we are ready?]
- Create a new tree on hg.debian.org to host screenshots.
- Alternatively provide a web service that hosts screenshots so that
  packages can point to it (e.g. http://screenshots.debian.net/PACKAGE).
  The service should also scale down the pictures to a reasonable
  size suitable for thumbnail display (max 150x150).
  (I can program that if needed. The only problem is probably
  authenticating the maintainer. Maybe a simple email interface
  checking PGP signatures will do. Needs further brainstorming.)
- Change packages.debian.org to show the thumbnail from the
  package's control file. I will work on a patch if desired.
- Add this feature to package managers (synaptic, kpackage, ...).
  I don't know enough about GUI programming yet that I could possibly
  help here.

Actually that doesn't sound too hard. And it would be a neat little
service. Let me know what you think and please step forward if you are
already working on something like that.

This time we will really do it. :)

Kindly
 Christoph
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[Leo 'costela' Antunes]

Hi,

Christoph Haas wrote:

> - Propose a new optional debian/control field "X-Screenshot:" pointing to
>   an URL serving an image file (PNG, JPG)

I don't think this is needed and could significantly bloat Packages.gz

> - Create a new tree on hg.debian.org to host screenshots.
> - Alternatively provide a web service that hosts screenshots so that
>   packages can point to it (e.g. http://screenshots.debian.net/PACKAGE).
>   The service should also scale down the pictures to a reasonable
>   size suitable for thumbnail display (max 150x150).
>   (I can program that if needed. The only problem is probably
>   authenticating the maintainer. Maybe a simple email interface
>   checking PGP signatures will do. Needs further brainstorming.)
> - Change packages.debian.org to show the thumbnail from the
>   package's control file. I will work on a patch if desired.
> - Add this feature to package managers (synaptic, kpackage, ...).
>   I don't know enough about GUI programming yet that I could possibly
>   help here.

Instead of all that, why not creating this infrastructure under a
debian.net (like screenshots.debian.net) domain and when it's ready
asking for it to be linked from the PTS, for instance?
Package managers could - after the solution is sufficiently stable -
fetch from it when browsing packages.

You could adopt a standard url syntax for referring to specific packages
(like screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>) and create a way for
maintainers to upload screenshots to it (via email, as you suggested,
perhaps).

This way we don't have to change anything in our infrastructure and
still have a semi-official place to put this sort of information.


Cheers

--
Leo "costela" Antunes
[insert a witty retort here]

[Michael Banck]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 05:05:03PM +0200, Christoph Haas wrote:
> So I'd like to get things moving. I assume we had to do this:

Before people submit dozens of screenshots all looking slightly
different, I suggest first deciding on some standards, like making sure
screenshots use the default GTK or Qt theme Debian uses.

Also, we should probably include window decorations to not make the
screenshot look funny (but exclude the rest of the user's desktop).  But
then the question is, which WM to use and which theme?  Personally, I'd
say use metacity's default blue theme, except for Qt apps, which could
use the default KDE theme.


Michael


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[Paul Wise-3]

A note: the games team has implemented goplay (debtags based game
browser that uses games-thumbnails) and games-thumbnails (a big .deb
of small screenshots).

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[John H. Robinson, IV]

Michael Banck wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 05:05:03PM +0200, Christoph Haas wrote:
> > So I'd like to get things moving. I assume we had to do this:
>
> Before people submit dozens of screenshots all looking slightly
> different, I suggest first deciding on some standards, like making sure
> screenshots use the default GTK or Qt theme Debian uses.
>
> Also, we should probably include window decorations to not make the
> screenshot look funny (but exclude the rest of the user's desktop).  But
> then the question is, which WM to use and which theme?  Personally, I'd
> say use metacity's default blue theme, except for Qt apps, which could
> use the default KDE theme.

Not all apps are either GTK or Qt. Some are dockapps, meant to be used
with window managers such as FluxBox or Window Maker. Enlightenment has
the concept of epplets, which are similar to dockapps.

Window managers[1] deserve their own screen shots, where you would want the
whole desktop. X Display Managers[2] should be eligible, too.

 [1] I count roughly forty-three window managers.
 [2] Five of these.

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[John H. Robinson, IV]

Leo costela Antunes wrote:
>
> You could adopt a standard url syntax for referring to specific packages
> (like screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>) and create a way for
> maintainers to upload screenshots to it (via email, as you suggested,
> perhaps).
>
> This way we don't have to change anything in our infrastructure and
> still have a semi-official place to put this sort of information.

I like the url suggestion. I propose one modification:

  http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/0
  http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/1
  http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/n

where image 0 is the default image displayed in rendering agent. For
simplicity, they should be all the same format. I would suggest PNG.

I am less certain how to handle the full/medium-sized images vs the
thumbnail.

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[Bernhard R. Link-2]

* Michael Banck <mbanck@...> [080722 17:27]:
> Before people submit dozens of screenshots all looking slightly
> different, I suggest first deciding on some standards, like making sure
> screenshots use the default GTK or Qt theme Debian uses.
>
> Also, we should probably include window decorations to not make the
> screenshot look funny (but exclude the rest of the user's desktop).  But
> then the question is, which WM to use and which theme?  Personally, I'd
> say use metacity's default blue theme, except for Qt apps, which could
> use the default KDE theme.

As I already said on irc, I think having standardized screenshots makes
people believe those are part of the window.

I'd rather see no decorations at all or some randomized WM used for each
image, so people see the decorations have nothing to do with the window.
(Perhaps with some exception if some program uses some shade of green
that clash with twm's window titles or things like that).

Hochachtungsvoll,
        Bernhard R. Link


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[Raphael Hertzog-3]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Christoph Haas wrote:
> - Propose a new optional debian/control field "X-Screenshot:" pointing to
>   an URL serving an image file (PNG, JPG)
>   [debian-devel-announce as soon as we are ready?]

You don't need/want such a field. It serves no practical purpose. There's
no reason to tie this information with the package's life. Screenshots
should be able to evolve independently and shouldn't have to wait until
the package is uploaded to be displayed/usable.

You also probably want to have multiple screenshots for each application
to preview all the important screens.

And last, I like to remind the few reflexions we had when we discussed
a framework for all kinds of (user-contributed) meta-informations during
Debconf 6:
http://wiki.debian.org/CRMI

It might give you some ideas if you want to work on something more generic
that includes the screenshots DB.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog

Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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[Roberto C. Sánchez]

Christoph,

Thanks for prodding again on this matter.  I've been extremely busy.

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 05:05:03PM +0200, Christoph Haas wrote:

> Dear list...
>
> the matter has been discussed at least twice already. Roberto C. Sanchez
> brought the matter back up in January 2008. The response was very positive
> but nobody wanted to implement that. Several Debian end users in my circle
> would surely be happy about having screenshots available for GUI
> applications to get a quick impression of how different GUI programs
> look/feel like without tediously installing, trying and deinstalling them.
> The "Description:" doesn't really give a good mental picture and different
> maintainers choose different wordings there which makes applications hard
> to compare by just reading the text.
>
> So I'd like to get things moving. I assume we had to do this:
>
> - Propose a new optional debian/control field "X-Screenshot:" pointing to
>   an URL serving an image file (PNG, JPG)
>   [debian-devel-announce as soon as we are ready?]

I agree with other comments that this is not necessary.  If the service
is centralized (like the screenshots.d.n that you suggest below) then
looking for non-existent screenshots should simply indicate that no such
screenshot exists.

> - Create a new tree on hg.debian.org to host screenshots.

I'm not sure about this.  But I personally am not a fan of hg.  I think
some sort of webservice that accepts signed uploads would be better.

> - Alternatively provide a web service that hosts screenshots so that
>   packages can point to it (e.g. http://screenshots.debian.net/PACKAGE).
>   The service should also scale down the pictures to a reasonable
>   size suitable for thumbnail display (max 150x150).
>   (I can program that if needed. The only problem is probably
>   authenticating the maintainer. Maybe a simple email interface
>   checking PGP signatures will do. Needs further brainstorming.)

Yes, I like this better.

> - Change packages.debian.org to show the thumbnail from the
>   package's control file. I will work on a patch if desired.

I don't think that this needs to reference the control file.  Simply
checking the web service should be sufficient.

> - Add this feature to package managers (synaptic, kpackage, ...).
>   I don't know enough about GUI programming yet that I could possibly
>   help here.
>
> Actually that doesn't sound too hard. And it would be a neat little
> service. Let me know what you think and please step forward if you are
> already working on something like that.
>
> This time we will really do it. :)
>

I know I have really wanted to get started on this, but keep lacking the

time.  I feel like we can probably get something substantial started
this time.  Perhaps a meeting on IRC would be a good idea.  Maybe on a
Saturday to get maximum participation?

Regards,

-Roberto

--
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http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com

[Paul Wise-3]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Christoph Haas <haas@...> wrote:

>  (I can program that if needed. The only problem is probably
>  authenticating the maintainer. Maybe a simple email interface
>  checking PGP signatures will do. Needs further brainstorming.)

This is something that non-developers can easily help with (like
debtags) and possibly get excited over, so it would be great if users
could easily contribute. I'd suggest an accept-by-default model with
the website doing size/etc checks and people watching uploads for
spam/etc.

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pabs

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[Gunnar Wolf]

John H. Robinson, IV dijo [Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 08:50:26AM -0700]:

> I like the url suggestion. I propose one modification:
>
>   http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/0
>   http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/1
>   http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/n
>
> where image 0 is the default image displayed in rendering agent. For
> simplicity, they should be all the same format. I would suggest PNG.
>
> I am less certain how to handle the full/medium-sized images vs the
> thumbnail.

In any case, the version should be noted (and possibly expired, once
it's oldstable or so) -
http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/<version>/0

So, if this gets implemented, having a field in debian/control would
be unnecessary - any apt front-end showing screenshots would know
exactly where to look for them (and whether to show a warning of "old
screenshot" if needed).

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[Raphael Geissert]

Paul Wise wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 11:05 PM, Christoph Haas <haas@...> wrote:
>
>>  (I can program that if needed. The only problem is probably
>>  authenticating the maintainer. Maybe a simple email interface
>>  checking PGP signatures will do. Needs further brainstorming.)
>
> This is something that non-developers can easily help with (like
> debtags) and possibly get excited over, so it would be great if users
> could easily contribute. I'd suggest an accept-by-default model with
> the website doing size/etc checks and people watching uploads for
> spam/etc.
>

What about using a phishtank-like system?; one user uploads, and a couple of
other users agree that it is ok (or a DD or DM signs the output of md5sum
file.png and sends it to the server to immediately accept it).

IMHO it is a nice and scalable system.

Cheers,
Raphael


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[Raphael Geissert]

Gunnar Wolf wrote:

> John H. Robinson, IV dijo [Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 08:50:26AM -0700]:
>> I like the url suggestion. I propose one modification:
>>
>>   http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/0
>>   http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/1
>>   http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/n
>>
>> where image 0 is the default image displayed in rendering agent. For
>> simplicity, they should be all the same format. I would suggest PNG.
>>
>> I am less certain how to handle the full/medium-sized images vs the
>> thumbnail.
>
> In any case, the version should be noted (and possibly expired, once
> it's oldstable or so) -
> http://screenshots.d.n/<bin-package-name>/<version>/0

With a fallback url? ;)

>
> So, if this gets implemented, having a field in debian/control would
> be unnecessary - any apt front-end showing screenshots would know
> exactly where to look for them (and whether to show a warning of "old
> screenshot" if needed).
>



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[Raphael Geissert]

Christoph Haas wrote:
>
> Actually that doesn't sound too hard. And it would be a neat little
> service. Let me know what you think and please step forward if you are
> already working on something like that.

These links might be of your interest:
http://websvn.kde.org/*checkout*/trunk/l10n-kde3/scripts/screenshots.README
http://trac.browsershots.org/

>
> This time we will really do it. :)
>
> Kindly
>  Christoph

Cheers,
Raphael


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[Enrico Zini]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 05:24:44PM +0200, Michael Banck wrote:

> Before people submit dozens of screenshots all looking slightly
> different, I suggest first deciding on some standards, like making sure
> screenshots use the default GTK or Qt theme Debian uses.

Back when I was involved in the Ubuntu documentation team, someone
produced a little guideline for taking screenshot:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots?highlight=%28screenshot%29

It does not mention themes and somesuch, but it does address the issue
of DPIs and color depth rather nicely; I recall careful tradeoffs were
made to have a single screenshot that would look decent on screen as
well as on print.


Ciao,

Enrico

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[Joey Hess]

Michael Banck wrote:
> Also, we should probably include window decorations to not make the
> screenshot look funny

I don't buy that a screenshot without window decorations somehow looks
funny. However, if an implementation wants to, it can decorate a
screenshot at display time with whatever decorations seem appropriate.

Of course, that only works if all screenshots are taken without
decorations.

--
see shy jo

[Drake Wilson-3]

Quoth Joey Hess <joeyh@...>, on 2008-07-23 12:45:03 -0400:
> I don't buy that a screenshot without window decorations somehow
> looks funny.

One data point: a screenshot with no window decorations loses a small
amount of information, primarily the caption used for the window.
Interesting ways of working around this might involve storing the
caption as metadata, or storing the screenshot with decorations and
then storing the rectangle corresponding to the client area as
metadata.

   ---> Drake Wilson


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[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:53:14AM -0500, Drake Wilson wrote:
> One data point: a screenshot with no window decorations loses a small
> amount of information, primarily the caption used for the window.
> Interesting ways of working around this might involve storing the
> caption as metadata, or storing the screenshot with decorations and
> then storing the rectangle corresponding to the client area as
> metadata.

You are assuming "one application = one window", aren't you?

Anyhow, the whole discussion about windows declaration seems quite
useless to me: decorations are just a tiny bit in the information a
screenshot can convey to the potential user, especially considering that
most screenshot submitters will be using, say, 4 different window
managers, most of which will just have the default theme.

If decorations really bother people, just add a caption (maybe
automatically generated using the yet to come "reportscreenshot" command
line utility) stating: "screenshot took under GNOME x.y, using metacity
x.y, theme bla".

That's it, at least that way we won't hinder screenshot submissions due
to too constraining, annoying requirements to *just take a screenshot*.

Cheers.

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