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Re: Visual Studio 2008

by Rob Rothwell-2 :: Rate this Message:

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 9:33 AM, giorgio ferraris <giorgio.ferraris@...> wrote:

Rob,
just to bring here my experience, I'm a long time smalltalker (back from 1985), andI actually work (lukily) still in smalltalk, but also on Java and c#.

I wish I had that kind of experience with Smalltalk. Unfortunately, BASIC is my "innate" language. And Assembly.

On java I mostly helped customers developing frameworks, so my java practical knowledge (hands on on tools like eclipse) is quite limited ( I know the language and I mostly use my OO experience coming from Smalltalkk usage for designing the frameworks someone else translate in code), but I'm using VisualStudio from the beginning, and I support a persistency frameworks there (clone to a smalltalk one) from several years, being it used by several huge customer.
I also develop web applications for these customer (big insurance company here in Italy) and my approach here is quite different from your. I use VS only for developing code (with resharper for refactoring), never designed a single aspx page.
As in my smalltalk applications, all of my gui (web pages...) are generated, the code create the HTML, and usually I have only an initial aspx page and a one or more .ashx page for receiving all of the ajax call and dispatching to the right method, this will give back html. Also the AJAX frameworks is my own. (using prototype/scriptacolous)

Are you using VisualStudio because of customer requirements, then, or because it has features you like? So...you designed code generation frameworks, and someone else helped you turn that into HTML? I think our "problem" is trying to get the most out of 2-3 people who are reasonably bright, but faced with LOTS of projects! So...we want to make it easy in the long term, but are feeling short term pain when it comes to building infrastructure and learning something new!

this is something I allways did in Smalltalk from years. no GUI builder tool, just code generation, this is much easier now, with CSS so powerfull and quite supported on browser. ( I do the same also for cleint/server app, gui are generated, almost never designed)

I have also cutomer that, after long time using gui tools, are now following my ideas, generating instead of designing GUI, this still in the Microsoft VisualStudio world.

Are there any advantages that the "VisualStudio world" has for you over a Smalltalk image? Do you have an easier time maintaining your code, or managing change?

So, it's not a problem of language, but a problem of how someone think about generating applications.
I'm pretty sure my way of working gave me lot of benefits, but your idea and exprerince can say the same for you too, it a question of taste. The only thing I would suggest is: try this way and then decide (also on c#, if you like)

I think you are right in that it is always easy to incrementally improve more abstract frameworks. GUI builders are nice for the "easy" stuff, but quickly leave you struggling to add something "new." You probably haven't had that problem doing it your way.

The only real difference is that on visualStudio you have the choice, here in Smalltalk you don't. But,smalltalk has so many advantages... (you will discover it if you will insist on using it for a while, first time are hard, I understand, it's a new world...)

I definitely feel like it's the right tool for the job; the learning curve is just a bit formidable!

Ciao and good luck

Thanks for the input!

Rob

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