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Re: Visual Studio 2008
by giorgio ferraris-2
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Rob,
just to bring here my experience, I'm a long time smalltalker (back from 1985), andI actually work (lukily) still in smalltalk, but also on Java and c#.
On java I mostly helped customers developing frameworks, so my java practical knowledge (hands on on tools like eclipse) is quite limited ( I know the language and I mostly use my OO experience coming from Smalltalkk usage for designing the frameworks someone else translate in code), but I'm using VisualStudio from the beginning, and I support a persistency frameworks there (clone to a smalltalk one) from several years, being it used by several huge customer.
I also develop web applications for these customer (big insurance company here in Italy) and my approach here is quite different from your. I use VS only for developing code (with resharper for refactoring), never designed a single aspx page.
As in my smalltalk applications, all of my gui (web pages...) are generated, the code create the HTML, and usually I have only an initial aspx page and a one or more .ashx page for receiving all of the ajax call and dispatching to the right method, this will give back html. Also the AJAX frameworks is my own. (using prototype/scriptacolous)
this is something I allways did in Smalltalk from years. no GUI builder tool, just code generation, this is much easier now, with CSS so powerfull and quite supported on browser. ( I do the same also for cleint/server app, gui are generated, almost never designed)
I have also cutomer that, after long time using gui tools, are now following my ideas, generating instead of designing GUI, this still in the Microsoft VisualStudio world.
So, it's not a problem of language, but a problem of how someone think about generating applications.
I'm pretty sure my way of working gave me lot of benefits, but your idea and exprerince can say the same for you too, it a question of taste. The only thing I would suggest is: try this way and then decide (also on c#, if you like)
The only real difference is that on visualStudio you have the choice, here in Smalltalk you don't. But,smalltalk has so many advantages... (you will discover it if you will insist on using it for a while, first time are hard, I understand, it's a new world...)
Ciao and good luck
Giorgio
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just to bring here my experience, I'm a long time smalltalker (back from 1985), andI actually work (lukily) still in smalltalk, but also on Java and c#.
On java I mostly helped customers developing frameworks, so my java practical knowledge (hands on on tools like eclipse) is quite limited ( I know the language and I mostly use my OO experience coming from Smalltalkk usage for designing the frameworks someone else translate in code), but I'm using VisualStudio from the beginning, and I support a persistency frameworks there (clone to a smalltalk one) from several years, being it used by several huge customer.
I also develop web applications for these customer (big insurance company here in Italy) and my approach here is quite different from your. I use VS only for developing code (with resharper for refactoring), never designed a single aspx page.
As in my smalltalk applications, all of my gui (web pages...) are generated, the code create the HTML, and usually I have only an initial aspx page and a one or more .ashx page for receiving all of the ajax call and dispatching to the right method, this will give back html. Also the AJAX frameworks is my own. (using prototype/scriptacolous)
this is something I allways did in Smalltalk from years. no GUI builder tool, just code generation, this is much easier now, with CSS so powerfull and quite supported on browser. ( I do the same also for cleint/server app, gui are generated, almost never designed)
I have also cutomer that, after long time using gui tools, are now following my ideas, generating instead of designing GUI, this still in the Microsoft VisualStudio world.
So, it's not a problem of language, but a problem of how someone think about generating applications.
I'm pretty sure my way of working gave me lot of benefits, but your idea and exprerince can say the same for you too, it a question of taste. The only thing I would suggest is: try this way and then decide (also on c#, if you like)
The only real difference is that on visualStudio you have the choice, here in Smalltalk you don't. But,smalltalk has so many advantages... (you will discover it if you will insist on using it for a while, first time are hard, I understand, it's a new world...)
Ciao and good luck
Giorgio
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Rob Rothwell <r.j.rothwell@...> wrote:
Thanks Janko.
It's hard to fight the lure of drag-and-drop with a Smalltalk learning curve!
That's why I still feel like a framework that could generate maintainable code, at least to get people started, would be useful. The would see the relationship between placing the button and the generated code easily because there would be so little code to generate!
The code generated by other tools seems very hard to follow, or is not given to you at all (VB, for example).
I've mentioned your success before, but will pass this along in your own voice!
Thanks,
Rob
On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Janko Mivšek <janko.mivsek@...> wrote:Hi Rob,
As you already mention it is a long-term mantability and extendability of Smalltalk systems what should count, not short-term flashy, cool painting of your apps with Visual Studio, which soon start to became spaghetti code and you need to start rewriting them again. That's what M$ like a lot of course ...
On the contrary Smalltalk (and Aida) apps are almost eternal, they can stand years and years of continuous change, yet stay maintainable. Let me just point to 10 years anniversary of longest living Aida app: a Gas Billing System for out National Gas Company, billing all the gas in Slovenia: http://www.aidaweb.si/news/anniversaries-records.html
Best regards
Janko
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