Re: Thrift Status?

[Doug Cutting-4]

I just compared the initial committers listed in
   http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ThriftProposal
to the list of folks who've filed CLAs in:
   http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
and it looks like everyone but Ben Maurer and Jake Luciani have a CLA on
file.

I think we should get started creating accounts, JIRA project, svn repo,
website, etc.  Is anyone else working on this?  If not, any objections
to me kicking these off?

Also, has the software grant process yet been started?

Doug

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[David Reiss-4]

My understanding was that we also needed to get ICLAs from anyone who
has contributed patches to Thrift.  The following people also do not
appear on that page, though I know several of them have sent at least
one copy of their ICLA in:

Andrew Lutomirski
Dan Li
Johan Oskarsson
Kevin Ko
Patrick Collison
Paul Querna
Simon Forman
Todd Berman
William Morgan
Ben Matasar
Jake Luciani
Ben Maurer
Dave Engberg
Igor Afanasyev
Will Palmeri
Craig Kimerer
Ross McFarland
Dan Sully

We also need CCLAs from Powerset, imeem, Amie Street, and Evernote.  Is
there a way to check whether these have been received?

I'm not sure exactly what else needs to go into the software grant
process.  I still have not gotten an answer to my question about our
CCLA.  More Facebook engineers have contributed to Thrift since I first
got it signed, and more are going to in the future.  I cannot go back to
our CEO to get a CCLA signed for each engineer who contributes to
Thrift, so I need to know what other, more scalable options are
available.

I also have not received an answer to my question about SVN.  When
existing projects are moved into Apache, is their full VCS history
normally imported, or just the latest version.  If the former, I will
need to talk to an SVN expert because Thrift's SVN history is a bit
complicated.

I would love to see JIRA, a website, and Wiki space set up.  I'll send
an email to the current Thrift list asking people to subscribe to the
Apache one after I verify that it works.  By the way, is there a way for
me to view list membership?

--David

Doug Cutting wrote:

> I just compared the initial committers listed in
>    http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ThriftProposal
> to the list of folks who've filed CLAs in:
>    http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
> and it looks like everyone but Ben Maurer and Jake Luciani have a CLA on
> file.
>
> I think we should get started creating accounts, JIRA project, svn repo,
> website, etc.  Is anyone else working on this?  If not, any objections
> to me kicking these off?
>
> Also, has the software grant process yet been started?
>
> Doug
>

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[Janne Jalkanen]

> I also have not received an answer to my question about SVN.  When
> existing projects are moved into Apache, is their full VCS history
> normally imported, or just the latest version.  If the former, I will
> need to talk to an SVN expert because Thrift's SVN history is a bit
> complicated.

We discussed this within JSPWiki, and both were options.  In the end,  
we decided to import the entire history - which is nice since we can  
point people now to a single place even when they are checking for  
issues with older versions, and they can see the diffs properly and  
so on.

But if your history is complicated, then maybe it might make sense to  
import only the latest version.  Up to your community to decide, I  
think ;-)

/Janne

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[robert burrell donkin-2]

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:57 PM, David Reiss <dreiss@...> wrote:

<snip>

> We also need CCLAs from Powerset, imeem, Amie Street, and Evernote.  Is
> there a way to check whether these have been received?

by asking here ;-)

Powerset YES
Evernote YES

imeem, Amie Street NO but these sound like names and it is possible
that they may be covered by blanket CCLAs which do not mention their
names

someone needs to check in the private repository that hosts this
information. i can't remember whether this information is confidential
or whether no one's been inspired to hack a script. perhaps someone
how does will jump in...

> I'm not sure exactly what else needs to go into the software grant
> process.  I still have not gotten an answer to my question about our
> CCLA.  More Facebook engineers have contributed to Thrift since I first
> got it signed, and more are going to in the future.  I cannot go back to
> our CEO to get a CCLA signed for each engineer who contributes to
> Thrift, so I need to know what other, more scalable options are
> available.

AIUI other corporations use CCLA. if anyone knows how they scale,
please jump in.

if this is likely to be an ongoing problem then raise on legal-discuss

> I also have not received an answer to my question about SVN.  When
> existing projects are moved into Apache, is their full VCS history
> normally imported, or just the latest version.  If the former, I will
> need to talk to an SVN expert because Thrift's SVN history is a bit
> complicated.

depends: some choose to, some choose not to

> I would love to see JIRA, a website, and Wiki space set up.  I'll send
> an email to the current Thrift list asking people to subscribe to the
> Apache one after I verify that it works.

we've been drafting some documentation that hopefully covers this
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/mentor.html#request-required-resources

feedback most welcome :-)

> By the way, is there a way for
> me to view list membership?

we use ezalm. IIRC this is covered in http://www.ezmlm.org/

- robert

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[William A. Rowe, Jr.]

David Reiss wrote:
>
> We also need CCLAs from Powerset, imeem, Amie Street, and Evernote.  Is
> there a way to check whether these have been received?

This entirely depends on the contributor.  It's up to each iCLA signer to
determine if they have the legal authority to bind their contributions to
the ASF, or if clarification is required or useful.

If this is coming in with copyright held by different companies, a software
grant is more appropriate than the cCLA.  If they will continue to donate,
again it's up to the iCLA signer to determine this and request one.  See

http://www.apache.org/licenses/#grants

Oh - and don't crosspost between public and private lists... since you are
posting to general@apache, you've made this a public discussion, there is
no reason not to just use thrift-dev@ rather than -private :)

Bill

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[William A. Rowe, Jr.]

Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:57 PM, David Reiss <dreiss@...> wrote:
>
>> I also have not received an answer to my question about SVN.  When
>> existing projects are moved into Apache, is their full VCS history
>> normally imported, or just the latest version.  If the former, I will
>> need to talk to an SVN expert because Thrift's SVN history is a bit
>> complicated.
>
> depends: some choose to, some choose not to

And if you choose to (it is encouraged), and some committers don't come
across, it's just a matter of transforming the committer name, e.g. we
have some tom-sourceforge style uid's out there that are just placeholders
for former committers.

infrastructure@... is the best way to ask for help with the import.

Bill

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[Doug Cutting-4]

David Reiss wrote:
> My understanding was that we also needed to get ICLAs from anyone who
> has contributed patches to Thrift.

I would think that depended on the terms of their contributions,
wouldn't it?  Nearly all of the Thrift source files say "Copyright (c)
Facebook".  If contributors in fact assigned the copyright of all
contributions to Facebook, then wouldn't we only need a software grant
from Facebook, since it has clear title to the code?

There are two separate things we need:
  1. ICLAs for each committer before they can start committing at Apache;
  2. Permission from the copyright owner(s) of the existing code to
change its license to the Apache license.

The CCLA can be used for (2), but I think ICLA only addresses (1).  So I
don't see that we need ICLAs from any but project committers.

> We also need CCLAs from Powerset, imeem, Amie Street, and Evernote.  Is
> there a way to check whether these have been received?

If folks at these companies contributed on their companies time, and did
not assign the copyright of their contributions to Facebook, then we may
need software grants filed for these contributions.  And, as noted
above, the CCLA form can be used  as a software grant.

> I cannot go back to
> our CEO to get a CCLA signed for each engineer who contributes to
> Thrift, so I need to know what other, more scalable options are
> available.

The CCLA is recommended but not required for ongoing contributions.  Its
primary purpose is to clarify things between the employer and the
employee, since contributing to an open source project without
permission is frequently a violation of one's employment contract, so
having this permission in writing filed with an external entity makes
things abundantly clear.  So, as long as Facebook management has made it
clear that it intends for its employees to contribute their work on
Thrift to Apache, I wouldn't worry about having a CCLA for each of them.

> I would love to see JIRA, a website, and Wiki space set up.  I'll send
> an email to the current Thrift list asking people to subscribe to the
> Apache one after I verify that it works.  By the way, is there a way for
> me to view list membership?

List moderators can view membership.  Would you like to moderate the
Thrift lists?  We usually recommend that each list have about two
moderators.  They primarily review messages from non-list-members,
discarding spam and accepting relevant messages.

Doug

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[Upayavira-2]

On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 12:19 -0700, Doug Cutting wrote:

> I just compared the initial committers listed in
>    http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ThriftProposal
> to the list of folks who've filed CLAs in:
>    http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
> and it looks like everyone but Ben Maurer and Jake Luciani have a CLA on
> file.
>
> I think we should get started creating accounts, JIRA project, svn repo,
> website, etc.  Is anyone else working on this?  If not, any objections
> to me kicking these off?

It is resting upon my shoulders, and I am being slack. Feel free to
create accounts, etc.


> Also, has the software grant process yet been started?

Not sure. From later questions in the thread it seems that a CCLA is
enough?

And David, I have just made you a moderator on dev/private/commit, so
you can use the moderator commands mentioned to see who is subscribed,
etc.

Regards, and apologies, Upayavira



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[Doug Cutting-4]

David Reiss wrote:
> I would love to see JIRA, a website, and Wiki space set up.

I setup the JIRA project at:
   https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/THRIFT

I'm currently the project lead, but probably you or Mark Slee should be.
  Can all the committers please create themselves Jira accounts and send
me their Jira usernames so I can finish configuring permissions there?

Folks should subscribe to thrift-dev@... and
thrift-private@... if they have not already, so that we
can move discussion off general@.  To subscribe, send a message to
thrift-dev-subscribe@ and thrift-private-subscribe@.

I made a request to have the wiki created:
   https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-1605

As for the website, we need to decide how we want to author it.  If
folks are okay with Forrest, then I can bootstrap that tomorrow.

Doug




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[David Reiss-4]

>> My understanding was that we also needed to get ICLAs from anyone who
>> has contributed patches to Thrift.
>
> I would think that depended on the terms of their contributions,
> wouldn't it?  Nearly all of the Thrift source files say "Copyright (c)
> Facebook".  If contributors in fact assigned the copyright of all
> contributions to Facebook, then wouldn't we only need a software grant
> from Facebook, since it has clear title to the code?
Sigh.  We took the time to get copyright assignment on some, but not all
of the external contributions.  Is an email agreement of copyright
assignment enough, or do we need to get another signed document from all
of these people.

> There are two separate things we need:
>   1. ICLAs for each committer before they can start committing at Apache;
>   2. Permission from the copyright owner(s) of the existing code to
> change its license to the Apache license.
>
> The CCLA can be used for (2), but I think ICLA only addresses (1).  So I
> don't see that we need ICLAs from any but project committers.
Okay.  So does this mean that future contributors will only need to
certify over email that they allow Apache to distribute their patches
under the terms in the software grant document?

>> We also need CCLAs from Powerset, imeem, Amie Street, and Evernote.  Is
>> there a way to check whether these have been received?
>
> If folks at these companies contributed on their companies time, and did
> not assign the copyright of their contributions to Facebook, then we may
> need software grants filed for these contributions.  And, as noted
> above, the CCLA form can be used  as a software grant.
I will either get copyright assingment or software grant documents from
these companies, depending on the answer to the questions above.

>> I cannot go back to
>> our CEO to get a CCLA signed for each engineer who contributes to
>> Thrift, so I need to know what other, more scalable options are
>> available.
>
> The CCLA is recommended but not required for ongoing contributions.  Its
> primary purpose is to clarify things between the employer and the
> employee, since contributing to an open source project without
> permission is frequently a violation of one's employment contract, so
> having this permission in writing filed with an external entity makes
> things abundantly clear.  So, as long as Facebook management has made it
> clear that it intends for its employees to contribute their work on
> Thrift to Apache, I wouldn't worry about having a CCLA for each of them.

This sounds fine.  Given that we already sent in a CCLA with about 30
names on it, I think it can be assumed that Facebook intends for its
employees to contribute to Thrift.

>> I would love to see JIRA, a website, and Wiki space set up.  I'll send
>> an email to the current Thrift list asking people to subscribe to the
>> Apache one after I verify that it works.  By the way, is there a way for
>> me to view list membership?
>
> List moderators can view membership.  Would you like to moderate the
> Thrift lists?  We usually recommend that each list have about two
> moderators.  They primarily review messages from non-list-members,
> discarding spam and accepting relevant messages.
Yes, can you make me a moderator?  Thanks.

--David

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[jakers]

hi. I mailed in my icla a week or so ago.

Jake

On 5/8/08, Doug Cutting <cutting@...> wrote:

> I just compared the initial committers listed in
>    http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ThriftProposal
> to the list of folks who've filed CLAs in:
>    http://people.apache.org/~jim/committers.html
> and it looks like everyone but Ben Maurer and Jake Luciani have a CLA on
> file.
>
> I think we should get started creating accounts, JIRA project, svn repo,
> website, etc.  Is anyone else working on this?  If not, any objections
> to me kicking these off?
>
> Also, has the software grant process yet been started?
>
> Doug
>

--
blog - http://3.rdrail.net/blog
twitter - http://twitter.com/tjake

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[William A. Rowe, Jr.]

Upayavira wrote:
>
>> Also, has the software grant process yet been started?
>
> Not sure. From later questions in the thread it seems that a CCLA is
> enough?

No - on a completed code base, the Software Grant is necessary, see
my earlier comments.

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[Doug Cutting-4]

William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Upayavira wrote:
>>
>>> Also, has the software grant process yet been started?
>>
>> Not sure. From later questions in the thread it seems that a CCLA is
>> enough?
>
> No - on a completed code base, the Software Grant is necessary, see
> my earlier comments.

The CCLA form can be used as a software grant.  So you're both right.

Doug

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[robert burrell donkin-2]

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 4:47 AM, Doug Cutting <cutting@...> wrote:

> William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>>
>> Upayavira wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, has the software grant process yet been started?
>>>
>>> Not sure. From later questions in the thread it seems that a CCLA is
>>> enough?
>>
>> No - on a completed code base, the Software Grant is necessary, see
>> my earlier comments.
>
> The CCLA form can be used as a software grant.  So you're both right.

+1

ISTM that the problem is that thrift is a more quickly moving code
base than the other commercial projects we've had experience
importing. so maybe we need to use the experience of the highly active
open source projects which have moved to the incubator. hopefully,
some of the people involved will jump in with first hand experiences
now...

...but i'll do my best to offer some observations:

* It is not necessary to stop development outside Apache during import
and clean up. Providing that code is not moved around excessively,
changes made after the export cut can be contributed by an agent of
the copyright holder either as patches through JIRA or by direct
commits.  Patches can be used to ensure that the number of developers
who must be listed on a CCLA is reduced to a manageable number. For
example, say that Company X owns the copyright for all wcoveredork
done by Developer A who is not listed on a CCLA. The patch is owned by
Company X. Developer B is listed on the CCLA and has every right to
commit or submit the patch using the CCLA.

* Tracking down every contributor and ensuring that every contribution
is covered takes a long time. There is no need for this to prevent an
initial import providing that:
 * the majority of the code is covered
 * the contributors and their contributions are known precisely
 * no releases are cut
 * it is clearly indicated that the code is being cleaned up (for
example, for in import rather than trunk)
 * those signing the CCLA or software grant are willing to take
responsibility for the code base imported
 * Careful public records are kept on progress

- robert

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[robert burrell donkin-2]

On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin
> who must be listed on a CCLA is reduced to a manageable number. For
> example, say that Company X owns the copyright for all wcoveredork

                       ^^^^^^^

                      work covered

(i hate m$ mice)

- robert

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[robert burrell donkin-2]

On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 11:54 PM, David Reiss <dreiss@...> wrote:

>>> My understanding was that we also needed to get ICLAs from anyone who
>>> has contributed patches to Thrift.
>>
>> I would think that depended on the terms of their contributions,
>> wouldn't it?  Nearly all of the Thrift source files say "Copyright (c)
>> Facebook".  If contributors in fact assigned the copyright of all
>> contributions to Facebook, then wouldn't we only need a software grant
>> from Facebook, since it has clear title to the code?
> Sigh.  We took the time to get copyright assignment on some, but not all
> of the external contributions.  Is an email agreement of copyright
> assignment enough, or do we need to get another signed document from all
> of these people.

we can't involve ourselves with the means by which the copyright
license required to grant us the rights required is obtained. if you
are confident that you own the copyright then we're happy to take you
at your word unless we hear otherwise.

>> There are two separate things we need:
>>   1. ICLAs for each committer before they can start committing at Apache;
>>   2. Permission from the copyright owner(s) of the existing code to
>> change its license to the Apache license.
>>
>> The CCLA can be used for (2), but I think ICLA only addresses (1).  So I
>> don't see that we need ICLAs from any but project committers.
> Okay.  So does this mean that future contributors will only need to
> certify over email that they allow Apache to distribute their patches
> under the terms in the software grant document?

patches are interesting :-)

AL2 section 5 means that no ICLA is required but regular or major
contributions should be asked to sign a ICLA since it's cleaner and
neater.

committers require a ICLA and we ask for a CCLA if that's required.
whether a CCLA is required depends on their employment contract and
it's legal jurisdiction so not everyone requires one. it's a matter
for the committer to determine whether they require a CCLA but most US
employees will require one before they have the rights required to
sign an ICLA.

<snip>

>>> I cannot go back to
>>> our CEO to get a CCLA signed for each engineer who contributes to
>>> Thrift, so I need to know what other, more scalable options are
>>> available.
>>
>> The CCLA is recommended but not required for ongoing contributions.  Its
>> primary purpose is to clarify things between the employer and the
>> employee, since contributing to an open source project without
>> permission is frequently a violation of one's employment contract, so
>> having this permission in writing filed with an external entity makes
>> things abundantly clear.  So, as long as Facebook management has made it
>> clear that it intends for its employees to contribute their work on
>> Thrift to Apache, I wouldn't worry about having a CCLA for each of them.
> This sounds fine.  Given that we already sent in a CCLA with about 30
> names on it, I think it can be assumed that Facebook intends for its
> employees to contribute to Thrift.

whether an employee is happy to sign an ICLAs without a CCLA on file
should be a private matter. all that is required is an ICLA and an
understanding that the contributor may require a CCLA to be able to
grant the required rights.

- robert

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[Martijn Dashorst]

One observation from me:

On 5/9/08, Robert Burrell Donkin <robertburrelldonkin@...> wrote:
>  * It is not necessary to stop development outside Apache during import
>  and clean up.

Provided that this does not result in code drops coming in at friday
5pm. We all know the risks involved in such a development practice.

Martijn

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