Re: Contribution and question about getting involved in the project.

[Jonathan Revusky-3]

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Paul Cager
<paul-debian@...> wrote:
 > Hi Jonathan,
 >
 > I think it would be best to best to bring this conversation to a close.

Paul, if you want to bring the conversation to a close, stop writing
bullshit.

 > I don't remember ever insulting you (in private or in public), but after
 > yesterday's and today's name-calling I can see that my tactic of giving
 > you the benefit of the doubt won't work.

*You* giving *me* the benefit of the doubt?????

This is just flabbergasting. Step back from this a second. This is all
about me having done all this work and trying it to contribute it
here!!!???

No, I was the one giving *you* the benefit of the doubt. The stagnant
state of this project was quite obvious. Also, we all basically know
that there is a common phenomenon with well known open source projects:
the original creators lose interest and they get taken over by a certain
kind of useless people who, AFAICS, are involved in the thing because
they want to feel important. There were significant warning signs that
trying to talk to you guys would be a waste of my time.

So, I did not have high expectations wrt this community. OTOH, I did not
anticipate the sheer horror of this, just how horrible it would be. Now,
obviously, you did not have the capacity to move the project forward on
your own steam. I don't think that's debatable. However, the situation
is far worse. You guys are so utterly useless that there can't even be
any forward progress here when somebody shows up and just hands you the
work. "Here it is guys. Use it, be happy." An amount of work that
probably is significantly greater than all the work that has gone into
this project in its 5 years of open source existence.

Does this not lay bare the extent to which the community is
dysfunctional? Somebody shows up and just hands you the work and you
*still* can't do anything.

Basically, it's like you guys are such hopeless wankers that you cannot
even get laid in a whorehouse!

I mean, that's brutal, I know, but I'm satisfied that it's an accurate
characterization. It's nasty of me to say this, but you're just asking
for it. You're trying to weave some mendacious narrative where the
problem here is not what useless gits you are. No, the problem is me!
The problem is the guy who tried to contribute all this work!

Yeah, right. That's the problem.

 >
 > But I must respond to your claim below that I told you Dale Anson had
 > badmouthed you on a private forum. I do not remember saying that, and
 > neither does my mail archive (which is generally much more reliable!).


Well, since I have no access to the private forum, I cannot know. So
fine. I just assumed that the person who insulted me in public was the
same person spreading innuendo in private. If that's not the case, then
it gets worse because there are more people involved in it.

 > I
 > hope Dale won't mind me saying that his two posts on the -dev list were
 > to say "yes, it would be good to move from CVS to svn". I have had a few
 > private emails "warning" me about you, but none of these were from Dale.

Look, I asked Dale Anson what grievance he had against me. What did I
ever do to him? No answer. If any of these people wants to recount all
the terrible things I did to them, just go ahead and do so right now.

These are all people I don't know from Adam. We've never met!

I mean, anybody who wasn't born yesterday knows that this is just
useless mediocre people who resent anybody who is capable of doing
anything. It makes them feel inferior. Well, tough cookies. They are
inferior. Get used to it.


 > And yes, I do agree that I feel it is unfair that you were not copied in
 > on those emails (although I can see that people might simply wish to
 > avoid a slanging match with you).

Well, they're just pathetic cowards. AFAICS, it's just that if I come
into the project and move it forward, they end up being faced with what
inferior, useless gits they are.

Look, people who are straightforward and honest in their dealings do not
have problems with me. There is a core reason that I have reached the
end of my rope with you, Paul, and that I am not making the slightest
attempt to disguise the utter contempt in which I hold you.

It has become evident that you are a person of no integrity whatsoever.
You say one thing in private conversation and then you take a different
line in public and surely if you talk to another person, you say
something else. There is no set of core beliefs that you hold and maintain.

My now long-time collaborators in FreeMarker, for example, are people
who, if you talk about whatever given subject in private email, their
opinion is X and if the subject comes up on some forum, then their
opinion is still X (modulo the times they really thought about it
meanwhile and changed their minds). Maybe an opinion is expressed more
bluntly in private, but it's not that black is black in one place and
black is white somewhere else.

Somebody who just says one thing now to me and then says something
completely different based on what he thinks is expedient is not
somebody who can command any respect. You inspire in me approximately
equal measures of pity and contempt.

For example, 9 days ago you wrote in an email to me:

"Hey, man, chill. I agree with everything you say. Sreeni is being
unreasonable, he is refusing to listen to other people opinions, and yet
can't even seem to remember his own opinions. The only time he gets
involved is when someone attempts to bring in a new idea (like when TimP
suggested we use Maven to build). This is not the way free software
development should work, and it's certain to end in stagnation and
disintegration."

IOW, the problem here is the culture. Free software is not supposed to
(cannot) work this way, you say.

Now, 9 days later, the problem is my personality. Apparently everything
here was great except this horrible person, me, showed up and tried to
contribute all this work. How awful of me!

So you've gone over to that good guy, bad guy narrative, this utterly
despicable and absurd narrative where the problem is the guy who shows
up and tries to contribute a large amount of work. Well, I have to think
you know it's absurd, but you realize that that's the official party
line now, and you've decided to shift over to that. A week or two ago,
you considered it improper that people would badmouth me in private
without my even having a chance to respond. Now, you insinuate that
their behavior was justified.

It's pitiful. I mean, the guy who's supposed to be the project lead. I
ask him his reason for a decision and he says that the reason it's got
to be a certain way is that it always was that way. Since now he's not
talking to an utter coward, he is faced with the obvious response that
what he's saying is just fallacious. He then says the conversation is
over, thus earning a scathing response from me.

Then what?

The little shit is just gone. Just gone, man. He just walked away from a
valid discussion. Doesn't concede the point, doesn't argue his position.
Just walks away. I mean, lest anybody say that it's just me he won't
respond to, because yeah, right, I'm such a terrible person. No, that's
not it. You, Paul stated that you thought templating was a good idea.
Two other users, J. Chris Findlay and Carsten Zerbst, wrote posts saying
they thought it was a good idea.

Nobody besides Sreeni said it was a bad idea, and Sreeni would provide
no technical argument against it. So he wants to have a leadership role
  and just walks away from a technical discussion. Apparently, he's not
answerable to what users are telling him. He doesn't have to consider
what a collaborator is telling him.... <shrug>

How can I respect somebody like that? Well, I think more easily than I
can respect somebody who is willing to accept that this person is their
leader who must be unquestionably obeyed. "Let's use this refactored
codebase, but I know we have to rip out the templating code, because  da
boss say so..." I mean, what's worse, your project lead who does not
behave like a grown man, or you, who are willing to unquestioningly
follow that person's leadership?

So, right, now the problem here, is not what it obviously is, what
utterly useless wankers you guys are. No, the problem is the personality
of the person who showed up and tried to contribute all this work.

Yeah, that's your line now. So, of course, I despise you, Paul. Dude,
you are a weasel among weasels.

In closing, I cannot, for the life of me, imagine how you can respond to
the points I have made above. The basic facts here are just devastating.
  I have no real interest in continuing this conversation. It was very
bad idea to provoke me with this "I was giving you the benefit of the
doubt" crap. I consider that your best course of action now is: STFU.
Because if you talk any more shit, I will probably ignore it, but I
might just spank you some more.

Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreemMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
KawaDD project, http://code.google.com/p/kawadd


 >
 > Anyway, I wish you luck in your development of Kawadd. It looks an
 > interesting project.
 >
 > Regards,
 > Paul
 >
 > Jonathan Revusky wrote:
 >> Paul Cager wrote:
 >>> On Fri, May 23, 2008 03:25, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
 >>>> Paul Cager wrote:
 >>>>> So when we get a branch in CVS / svn for release 5 development,
 >>>>> shall we
 >>>>> populate it with Jonathan's codebase?
 >>>> I have a few comments to make about this.
 >>>>
 >>>> I donated the code in question and I did so in good faith, so I am not
 >>>> going to un-donate it. So you can use it if you want. But don't
you see
 >>>> any problem whatsoever with treating somebody like this and then
turning
 >>>> around and using that person's work?
 >>>
 >>> I hadn't realised my suggestion would be so controversial,
 >>
 >> <sigh>
 >>
 >> Okay, I take this to mean that you found my response surprising. Could
 >> you clarify something? Were you surprised because you didn't know how I
 >> felt about this? Or were you surprised that I so openly stated how I
felt?
 >>
 >> I ask out of curiosity. There is an important difference in the above 2
 >> things. Depending on which one it is, I can better understand the exact
 >> nature of the obtuseness which you are putting on display here.
 >>
 >>> and I truly did
 >>> not wish to pour petrol on this flame-war. And now I'm probably
going to
 >>> make things even worse, because I'd better respond to what you've just
 >>> said.
 >>
 >> Or to things I never said... <shrug>
 >>
 >>>
 >>> Once you've donated work to an OpenSource project you _can't_
 >>> un-donate it
 >>> (at least you can't in any Free Software license I'm familiar
with). I'm
 >>> sure you know that, Jonathan, but I thought it would be best to
point it
 >>> out explicitly, in case people think that it would be dangerous to
 >>> include
 >>> your contributions in case you "un-donate" it.
 >>
 >> <sigh>
 >>
 >> I thought that when I said above: "I donated the code in question and I
 >> did so in good faith.... So you can use it if you want" I was making my
 >> position quite clear. I guess I should have said: "I donated the code in
 >> question and I did so in good faith, so I am not going to 'un-donate'
 >> it, *even if I could*.
 >>
 >> What does it matter to me what you guys do? I know that nothing of any
 >> technical value is ever going to come out of this community. I've used
 >> JavaCC since late 2001 and IIRC, it was open-sourced here in 2003, and
 >> nothing has happened since then. To all intents and purposes, the tool
 >> is identical or near-identical to what it was 5 years ago when this open
 >> source project to work on the thing was inaugurated. Nothing. And that's
 >> obviously not going to change. It's true that the refactored codebase
 >> provides a far better basis on which to work, if one is interested in
 >> doing any work. But why kid yourself? The better part of a month has
 >> gone by and, AFAICT, you are the only person sufficiently interested to
 >> even look at it.
 >>
 >> I mean, nobody else is even interested. And what's striking about it is
 >> how blatant it is. In the Apache Velocity project, you have a situation
 >> where the people who are the supposed developers in the project aren't
 >> really interested in doing anything. However, they pretend that they
 >> are. So when somebody shows up and wants to do something, it takes that
 >> person a while to figure out that nobody is interested, because these
 >> guys go through the motions of pretending they're interested. Here,
 >> pretty much nobody even bothers to pretend that they're interested.
 >>
 >> Okay, Paul, you are at least somewhat interested. You finally did look
 >> at my code, after all. But if you have not figured out yet that the
 >> other people aren't interested, then, frankly, you must be one of the
 >> least perceptive people on the face of the earth, completely oblivious.
 >> (That's why I started off this note by asking if you were surprised that
 >> I felt the way I do.)
 >>
 >>> As to the _morality_ of using your work
 >>
 >>
 >> I don't say anything about the morality of it, or the legality. I said I
 >> was contributing it, so there is nothing directly immoral about taking
 >> me at my word and using this.
 >>
 >> It really just comes down to a question of tastelessness. To jerk
 >> somebody around for weeks, when he's trying to contribute. I mean, just
 >> the fact that, in nearly a month, nobody even saw fit to add me as a
 >> recipient to the dev mailing list. Now, after all this, when I've come
 >> to the conclusion that I have no option but to fork off a separate
 >> project, you, without the slightest hint of shame or embarrassment post
 >> a message saying: "Hey, I looked at this guy's code and it has merit.
 >> Let's use it as the basis for our new work."
 >>
 >> At the very least, you should feel some shame and embarrassment at
 >> wasting my time so gratuitously. And it has been an utterly miserable,
 >> worthless experience. I guess every cloud has a silver lining, so there
 >> may be something to get out of this. I recognize that I am one who does
 >> not suffer fools gladly, and sometimes I am a bit too intolerant towards
 >> people. In the future, I may cut people a bit more slack, for the simple
 >> reason, that no matter how obnoxious and idiotic people are being in
 >> some community, it is nothing compared to this. This has really got to
 >> be about as bad as it gets. What we have here is a toxic mixture of bad
 >> faith on the part of some, snivelling cowardice from others, all mixed
 >> up with a large dose of utter imbecility.
 >>
 >>> when you feel we have mistreated you.....
 >>
 >> C'mon, Paul, you're insinuating that I am just imagining this.
 >>
 >> Well, if you're going to take that route, I think it is perfectly proper
 >> for me to point out that, in private email, you told me that you thought
 >> Dale Anson's badmouthing me on a private forum where I had no
 >> opportunity to respond wasn't right. That's what you said. Were you
 >> saying that because you thought it was something I wanted to hear, or
 >> did you sincerely believe that?
 >>
 >> In any case, you never confronted Dale Anson over it, I assume. After
 >> all, he was then sufficiently emboldened to start this crap in public.
 >>
 >> You also told me in private that Sreeni was being utterly unreasonable.
 >> I assumed you were expressing a sincere belief. (After all, how could
 >> anybody believe otherwise???)  But you never stood up to his BS. Well,
 >> okay, you're not brave enough to do that... I mean, shit, it takes a lot
 >> of courage to stand up to somebody when he could.... errrr... hold
 >> on.... what could he do to you?
 >>
 >>
 >>> Well, I'm no expert on such things.  I'd just point out that you
 >>> call us "assholes" below, but see no problem in using JavaCC as the
basis
 >>> for Kawadd.
 >>
 >> That is such an absurd parallel. It's true that KawaDD is based on
 >> JavaCC, and it's true that I just called you guys assholes (but the only
 >> reason I created a new project was because you guys left me no
 >> alternative. And the only reason I called you assholes was due to my
 >> utter exasperation after nearly a month of trying to contribute this
 >> work here. Look at the title of this thread, for crying out loud! Well,
 >> I've gone through this before. I do not believe that any fair-minded
 >> observer would think that I jumped the gun. I gave you guys every
 >> chance, the better part of a month, to be minimally reasonable. In
 >> nearly a month, I was never even added to the dev mailing list! Nobody
 >> looked at my work!
 >>
 >>>
 >>> But since people do not seem to be too keen on my proposal, I think it
 >>> would be best for me to withdraw it.
 >>
 >> Uhhh, Paul, are you capable of stepping back and trying to look at your
 >> own behavior objectively? If you are, then do so now. Look at yourself.
 >> WTF are you doing? WTF is the point of asking a bunch of people who
 >> aren't even interested in doing anything their permission for doing
 >> something yourself?
 >>
 >> Isn't this whole thing just absurd? AFAICT, you're the only person here
 >> who is even marginally interested in doing anything. You're the only guy
 >> who, in nearly a month, has looked at the code I donated. Doesn't that
 >> tell you something?
 >>
 >> So do whatever the f*** you want. Sreeni has no authority over you. He's
 >> not paying you a salary. He only has authority because you accept the
 >> authority. That's it. Okay, he has the technical means to remove your
 >> access from the CVS repository, boot you from the project. I grant that.
 >> But he has no moral authority to do so. If he's not going to do any work
 >> himself, he has no moral authority to dictate conditions on you or
 >> anybody else who actually does want to do something.
 >>
 >> Can't you just open your eyes and see that? I mean, the only "power" at
 >> his disposition is to boot you from the project, but obviously, it's not
 >> worth being part of this then. It's just a farce.
 >>
 >> And can't you see that it is absolutely scandalous, outrageous, that I
 >> have to fork a separate project to continue this work I started? The
 >> fork would make sense if this community actually had some plans for
 >> developing the tool from this point, but you obviously don't. So all you
 >> guys are doing is sitting here, doing nothing, with no plans to do
 >> anything, jerking around somebody like me, who, for whatever crazy
 >> reason, really does want to work on the thing and enhance it.
 >>
 >> So there is no reason I should have to fork. If the people here have no
 >> interest in doing anything themselves, all common sense suggests that
 >> they should just step aside and let in somebody like me who really does
 >> want to do the work.
 >>
 >>
 >> Jonathan Revusky
 >> --
 >> lead developer, FreeMarker project http://freemarker.org/
 >> KawaDD Parser Generator http://code.google.com/p/kawadd
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>>
 >>> [...]
 >>>
 >>>> I mean, c'mon. The whole thing is a bit much, isn't it? You guys
want to
 >>>> be such assholes? Well, okay, fine. But then to use my work to try to
 >>>> jump-start the project????
 >>>>
 >>>> Naaah. Do your own goddamned work, guys. C'mon...
 >>>>
 >>>> Jonathan Revusky
 >>
 >>
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[aaron792]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Hi, calm down everybody! As an outsider who benefits from this project a lot but have never done any contribution to the project (also ashamed of that), I have to say many people who use this tool to fullfill their needs are grateful to all the contributors. In today's software world, it's not suprising that it may be a very long period for the contributor to get payback for his contribution. So I think maybe we have to take this fact into consideration before we make a decision to devote into a project. As for me who need to use the software but almost definitely (to be honest) will not participate in the project's development, I would like to donate some money that I can afford to support the project and as a pay for the software's good service.

Let's stop quarrel and keep on.

 

---

aaron792

2008-05-29

---

发件人： Jonathan Revusky

发送时间： 2008-05-26 00:11:08

收件人： users@...

抄送： dev@...

主题： [JavaCC] Re: Contribution and question about getting involved in the project.

 

 

 

On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Paul Cager 

<paul-debian@... > wrote:

  > Hi Jonathan,

  >

  > I think it would be best to best to bring this conversation to a close.

 

Paul, if you want to bring the conversation to a close, stop writing 

bullshit.

 

  > I don't remember ever insulting you (in private or in public), but after

  > yesterday's and today's name-calling I can see that my tactic of giving

  > you the benefit of the doubt won't work.

 

*You* giving *me* the benefit of the doubt?????

 

This is just flabbergasting. Step back from this a second. This is all 

about me having done all this work and trying it to contribute it 

here!!!???

 

No, I was the one giving *you* the benefit of the doubt. The stagnant 

state of this project was quite obvious. Also, we all basically know 

that there is a common phenomenon with well known open source projects: 

the original creators lose interest and they get taken over by a certain 

kind of useless people who, AFAICS, are involved in the thing because 

they want to feel important. There were significant warning signs that 

trying to talk to you guys would be a waste of my time.

 

So, I did not have high expectations wrt this community. OTOH, I did not 

anticipate the sheer horror of this, just how horrible it would be. Now, 

obviously, you did not have the capacity to move the project forward on 

your own steam. I don't think that's debatable. However, the situation 

is far worse. You guys are so utterly useless that there can't even be 

any forward progress here when somebody shows up and just hands you the 

work. "Here it is guys. Use it, be happy." An amount of work that 

probably is significantly greater than all the work that has gone into 

this project in its 5 years of open source existence.

 

Does this not lay bare the extent to which the community is 

dysfunctional? Somebody shows up and just hands you the work and you 

*still* can't do anything.

 

Basically, it's like you guys are such hopeless wankers that you cannot 

even get laid in a whorehouse!

 

I mean, that's brutal, I know, but I'm satisfied that it's an accurate 

characterization. It's nasty of me to say this, but you're just asking 

for it. You're trying to weave some mendacious narrative where the 

problem here is not what useless gits you are. No, the problem is me! 

The problem is the guy who tried to contribute all this work!

 

Yeah, right. That's the problem.

 

  >

  > But I must respond to your claim below that I told you Dale Anson had

  > badmouthed you on a private forum. I do not remember saying that, and

  > neither does my mail archive (which is generally much more reliable!).

 

 

Well, since I have no access to the private forum, I cannot know. So 

fine. I just assumed that the person who insulted me in public was the 

same person spreading innuendo in private. If that's not the case, then 

it gets worse because there are more people involved in it.

 

  > I

  > hope Dale won't mind me saying that his two posts on the -dev list were

  > to say "yes, it would be good to move from CVS to svn". I have had a few

  > private emails "warning" me about you, but none of these were from Dale.

 

Look, I asked Dale Anson what grievance he had against me. What did I 

ever do to him? No answer. If any of these people wants to recount all 

the terrible things I did to them, just go ahead and do so right now.

 

These are all people I don't know from Adam. We've never met!

 

I mean, anybody who wasn't born yesterday knows that this is just 

useless mediocre people who resent anybody who is capable of doing 

anything. It makes them feel inferior. Well, tough cookies. They are 

inferior. Get used to it.

 

 

  > And yes, I do agree that I feel it is unfair that you were not copied in

  > on those emails (although I can see that people might simply wish to

  > avoid a slanging match with you).

 

Well, they're just pathetic cowards. AFAICS, it's just that if I come 

into the project and move it forward, they end up being faced with what 

inferior, useless gits they are.

 

Look, people who are straightforward and honest in their dealings do not 

have problems with me. There is a core reason that I have reached the 

end of my rope with you, Paul, and that I am not making the slightest 

attempt to disguise the utter contempt in which I hold you.

 

It has become evident that you are a person of no integrity whatsoever. 

You say one thing in private conversation and then you take a different 

line in public and surely if you talk to another person, you say 

something else. There is no set of core beliefs that you hold and maintain.

 

My now long-time collaborators in FreeMarker, for example, are people 

who, if you talk about whatever given subject in private email, their 

opinion is X and if the subject comes up on some forum, then their 

opinion is still X (modulo the times they really thought about it 

meanwhile and changed their minds). Maybe an opinion is expressed more 

bluntly in private, but it's not that black is black in one place and 

black is white somewhere else.

 

Somebody who just says one thing now to me and then says something 

completely different based on what he thinks is expedient is not 

somebody who can command any respect. You inspire in me approximately 

equal measures of pity and contempt.

 

For example, 9 days ago you wrote in an email to me:

 

"Hey, man, chill. I agree with everything you say. Sreeni is being 

unreasonable, he is refusing to listen to other people opinions, and yet 

can't even seem to remember his own opinions. The only time he gets 

involved is when someone attempts to bring in a new idea (like when TimP 

suggested we use Maven to build). This is not the way free software 

development should work, and it's certain to end in stagnation and 

disintegration."

 

IOW, the problem here is the culture. Free software is not supposed to 

(cannot) work this way, you say.

 

Now, 9 days later, the problem is my personality. Apparently everything 

here was great except this horrible person, me, showed up and tried to 

contribute all this work. How awful of me!

 

So you've gone over to that good guy, bad guy narrative, this utterly 

despicable and absurd narrative where the problem is the guy who shows 

up and tries to contribute a large amount of work. Well, I have to think 

you know it's absurd, but you realize that that's the official party 

line now, and you've decided to shift over to that. A week or two ago, 

you considered it improper that people would badmouth me in private 

without my even having a chance to respond. Now, you insinuate that 

their behavior was justified.

 

It's pitiful. I mean, the guy who's supposed to be the project lead. I 

ask him his reason for a decision and he says that the reason it's got 

to be a certain way is that it always was that way. Since now he's not 

talking to an utter coward, he is faced with the obvious response that 

what he's saying is just fallacious. He then says the conversation is 

over, thus earning a scathing response from me.

 

Then what?

 

The little shit is just gone. Just gone, man. He just walked away from a 

valid discussion. Doesn't concede the point, doesn't argue his position. 

Just walks away. I mean, lest anybody say that it's just me he won't 

respond to, because yeah, right, I'm such a terrible person. No, that's 

not it. You, Paul stated that you thought templating was a good idea. 

Two other users, J. Chris Findlay and Carsten Zerbst, wrote posts saying 

they thought it was a good idea.

 

Nobody besides Sreeni said it was a bad idea, and Sreeni would provide 

no technical argument against it. So he wants to have a leadership role 

  and just walks away from a technical discussion. Apparently, he's not 

answerable to what users are telling him. He doesn't have to consider 

what a collaborator is telling him....  <shrug >

 

How can I respect somebody like that? Well, I think more easily than I 

can respect somebody who is willing to accept that this person is their 

leader who must be unquestionably obeyed. "Let's use this refactored 

codebase, but I know we have to rip out the templating code, because  da 

boss say so..." I mean, what's worse, your project lead who does not 

behave like a grown man, or you, who are willing to unquestioningly 

follow that person's leadership?

 

So, right, now the problem here, is not what it obviously is, what 

utterly useless wankers you guys are. No, the problem is the personality 

of the person who showed up and tried to contribute all this work.

 

Yeah, that's your line now. So, of course, I despise you, Paul. Dude, 

you are a weasel among weasels.

 

In closing, I cannot, for the life of me, imagine how you can respond to 

the points I have made above. The basic facts here are just devastating. 

  I have no real interest in continuing this conversation. It was very 

bad idea to provoke me with this "I was giving you the benefit of the 

doubt" crap. I consider that your best course of action now is: STFU. 

Because if you talk any more shit, I will probably ignore it, but I 

might just spank you some more.

 

Jonathan Revusky

--

lead developer, FreemMarker project, http://freemarker.org/

KawaDD project, http://code.google.com/p/kawadd

 

 

  >

  > Anyway, I wish you luck in your development of Kawadd. It looks an

  > interesting project.

  >

  > Regards,

  > Paul

  >

  > Jonathan Revusky wrote:

  > > Paul Cager wrote:

  > > > On Fri, May 23, 2008 03:25, Jonathan Revusky wrote:

  > > > > Paul Cager wrote:

  > > > > > So when we get a branch in CVS / svn for release 5 development,

  > > > > > shall we

  > > > > > populate it with Jonathan's codebase?

  > > > > I have a few comments to make about this.

  > > > >

  > > > > I donated the code in question and I did so in good faith, so I am not

  > > > > going to un-donate it. So you can use it if you want. But don't 

you see

  > > > > any problem whatsoever with treating somebody like this and then 

turning

  > > > > around and using that person's work?

  > > >

  > > > I hadn't realised my suggestion would be so controversial,

  > >

  > >  <sigh >

  > >

  > > Okay, I take this to mean that you found my response surprising. Could

  > > you clarify something? Were you surprised because you didn't know how I

  > > felt about this? Or were you surprised that I so openly stated how I 

felt?

  > >

  > > I ask out of curiosity. There is an important difference in the above 2

  > > things. Depending on which one it is, I can better understand the exact

  > > nature of the obtuseness which you are putting on display here.

  > >

  > > > and I truly did

  > > > not wish to pour petrol on this flame-war. And now I'm probably 

going to

  > > > make things even worse, because I'd better respond to what you've just

  > > > said.

  > >

  > > Or to things I never said...  <shrug >

  > >

  > > >

  > > > Once you've donated work to an OpenSource project you _can't_

  > > > un-donate it

  > > > (at least you can't in any Free Software license I'm familiar 

with). I'm

  > > > sure you know that, Jonathan, but I thought it would be best to 

point it

  > > > out explicitly, in case people think that it would be dangerous to

  > > > include

  > > > your contributions in case you "un-donate" it.

  > >

  > >  <sigh >

  > >

  > > I thought that when I said above: "I donated the code in question and I

  > > did so in good faith.... So you can use it if you want" I was making my

  > > position quite clear. I guess I should have said: "I donated the code in

  > > question and I did so in good faith, so I am not going to 'un-donate'

  > > it, *even if I could*.

  > >

  > > What does it matter to me what you guys do? I know that nothing of any

  > > technical value is ever going to come out of this community. I've used

  > > JavaCC since late 2001 and IIRC, it was open-sourced here in 2003, and

  > > nothing has happened since then. To all intents and purposes, the tool

  > > is identical or near-identical to what it was 5 years ago when this open

  > > source project to work on the thing was inaugurated. Nothing. And that's

  > > obviously not going to change. It's true that the refactored codebase

  > > provides a far better basis on which to work, if one is interested in

  > > doing any work. But why kid yourself? The better part of a month has

  > > gone by and, AFAICT, you are the only person sufficiently interested to

  > > even look at it.

  > >

  > > I mean, nobody else is even interested. And what's striking about it is

  > > how blatant it is. In the Apache Velocity project, you have a situation

  > > where the people who are the supposed developers in the project aren't

  > > really interested in doing anything. However, they pretend that they

  > > are. So when somebody shows up and wants to do something, it takes that

  > > person a while to figure out that nobody is interested, because these

  > > guys go through the motions of pretending they're interested. Here,

  > > pretty much nobody even bothers to pretend that they're interested.

  > >

  > > Okay, Paul, you are at least somewhat interested. You finally did look

  > > at my code, after all. But if you have not figured out yet that the

  > > other people aren't interested, then, frankly, you must be one of the

  > > least perceptive people on the face of the earth, completely oblivious.

  > > (That's why I started off this note by asking if you were surprised that

  > > I felt the way I do.)

  > >

  > > > As to the _morality_ of using your work

  > >

  > >

  > > I don't say anything about the morality of it, or the legality. I said I

  > > was contributing it, so there is nothing directly immoral about taking

  > > me at my word and using this.

  > >

  > > It really just comes down to a question of tastelessness. To jerk

  > > somebody around for weeks, when he's trying to contribute. I mean, just

  > > the fact that, in nearly a month, nobody even saw fit to add me as a

  > > recipient to the dev mailing list. Now, after all this, when I've come

  > > to the conclusion that I have no option but to fork off a separate

  > > project, you, without the slightest hint of shame or embarrassment post

  > > a message saying: "Hey, I looked at this guy's code and it has merit.

  > > Let's use it as the basis for our new work."

  > >

  > > At the very least, you should feel some shame and embarrassment at

  > > wasting my time so gratuitously. And it has been an utterly miserable,

  > > worthless experience. I guess every cloud has a silver lining, so there

  > > may be something to get out of this. I recognize that I am one who does

  > > not suffer fools gladly, and sometimes I am a bit too intolerant towards

  > > people. In the future, I may cut people a bit more slack, for the simple

  > > reason, that no matter how obnoxious and idiotic people are being in

  > > some community, it is nothing compared to this. This has really got to

  > > be about as bad as it gets. What we have here is a toxic mixture of bad

  > > faith on the part of some, snivelling cowardice from others, all mixed

  > > up with a large dose of utter imbecility.

  > >

  > > > when you feel we have mistreated you.....

  > >

  > > C'mon, Paul, you're insinuating that I am just imagining this.

  > >

  > > Well, if you're going to take that route, I think it is perfectly proper

  > > for me to point out that, in private email, you told me that you thought

  > > Dale Anson's badmouthing me on a private forum where I had no

  > > opportunity to respond wasn't right. That's what you said. Were you

  > > saying that because you thought it was something I wanted to hear, or

  > > did you sincerely believe that?

  > >

  > > In any case, you never confronted Dale Anson over it, I assume. After

  > > all, he was then sufficiently emboldened to start this crap in public.

  > >

  > > You also told me in private that Sreeni was being utterly unreasonable.

  > > I assumed you were expressing a sincere belief. (After all, how could

  > > anybody believe otherwise???)  But you never stood up to his BS. Well,

  > > okay, you're not brave enough to do that... I mean, shit, it takes a lot

  > > of courage to stand up to somebody when he could.... errrr... hold

  > > on.... what could he do to you?

  > >

  > >

  > > > Well, I'm no expert on such things.  I'd just point out that you

  > > > call us "assholes" below, but see no problem in using JavaCC as the 

basis

  > > > for Kawadd.

  > >

  > > That is such an absurd parallel. It's true that KawaDD is based on

  > > JavaCC, and it's true that I just called you guys assholes (but the only

  > > reason I created a new project was because you guys left me no

  > > alternative. And the only reason I called you assholes was due to my

  > > utter exasperation after nearly a month of trying to contribute this

  > > work here. Look at the title of this thread, for crying out loud! Well,

  > > I've gone through this before. I do not believe that any fair-minded

  > > observer would think that I jumped the gun. I gave you guys every

  > > chance, the better part of a month, to be minimally reasonable. In

  > > nearly a month, I was never even added to the dev mailing list! Nobody

  > > looked at my work!

  > >

  > > >

  > > > But since people do not seem to be too keen on my proposal, I think it

  > > > would be best for me to withdraw it.

  > >

  > > Uhhh, Paul, are you capable of stepping back and trying to look at your

  > > own behavior objectively? If you are, then do so now. Look at yourself.

  > > WTF are you doing? WTF is the point of asking a bunch of people who

  > > aren't even interested in doing anything their permission for doing

  > > something yourself?

  > >

  > > Isn't this whole thing just absurd? AFAICT, you're the only person here

  > > who is even marginally interested in doing anything. You're the only guy

  > > who, in nearly a month, has looked at the code I donated. Doesn't that

  > > tell you something?

  > >

  > > So do whatever the f*** you want. Sreeni has no authority over you. He's

  > > not paying you a salary. He only has authority because you accept the

  > > authority. That's it. Okay, he has the technical means to remove your

  > > access from the CVS repository, boot you from the project. I grant that.

  > > But he has no moral authority to do so. If he's not going to do any work

  > > himself, he has no moral authority to dictate conditions on you or

  > > anybody else who actually does want to do something.

  > >

  > > Can't you just open your eyes and see that? I mean, the only "power" at

  > > his disposition is to boot you from the project, but obviously, it's not

  > > worth being part of this then. It's just a farce.

  > >

  > > And can't you see that it is absolutely scandalous, outrageous, that I

  > > have to fork a separate project to continue this work I started? The

  > > fork would make sense if this community actually had some plans for

  > > developing the tool from this point, but you obviously don't. So all you

  > > guys are doing is sitting here, doing nothing, with no plans to do

  > > anything, jerking around somebody like me, who, for whatever crazy

  > > reason, really does want to work on the thing and enhance it.

  > >

  > > So there is no reason I should have to fork. If the people here have no

  > > interest in doing anything themselves, all common sense suggests that

  > > they should just step aside and let in somebody like me who really does

  > > want to do the work.

  > >

  > >

  > > Jonathan Revusky

  > > --

  > > lead developer, FreeMarker project http://freemarker.org/

  > > KawaDD Parser Generator http://code.google.com/p/kawadd

  > >

  > >

  > >

  > > >

  > > > [...]

  > > >

  > > > > I mean, c'mon. The whole thing is a bit much, isn't it? You guys 

want to

  > > > > be such assholes? Well, okay, fine. But then to use my work to try to

  > > > > jump-start the project????

  > > > >

  > > > > Naaah. Do your own goddamned work, guys. C'mon...

  > > > >

  > > > > Jonathan Revusky

  > >

  > >

  > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------

  > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...

  > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...

  > >

  >

  >

  >

 

 

 

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[Laughing Man]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:55:11 +0800
From: aaron792@...
To: users@...
CC: aaron792@...
Subject: Re: [JavaCC] Re: Contribution and question about getting involved in the project.

Hi, calm down everybody! As an outsider who benefits from this project a lot but have never done any contribution to the project (also ashamed of that), I have to say many people who use this tool to fullfill their needs are grateful to all the contributors. In today's software world, it's not suprising that it may be a very long period for the contributor to get payback for his contribution. So I think maybe we have to take this fact into consideration before we make a decision to devote into a project. As for me who need to use the software but almost definitely (to be honest) will not participate in the project's development, I would like to donate some money that I can afford to support the project and as a pay for the software's good service.

Let's stop quarrel and keep on.

 

---

aaron792

2008-05-29

---

 This fighting has got me realizing I should probably contribute something too. Maybe after I've finished some of my other stuff.

---

Discover the new Windows Vista Learn more!

[Tom Copeland]

On Sun, 2008-05-25 at 18:10 +0200, Jonathan Revusky wrote:

> Well, since I have no access to the private forum, I cannot know.

By the way, the dev list is public now:

https://javacc.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectMailingListList

Yours,

tom



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[Laughing Man]

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> > Well, since I have no access to the private forum, I cannot know.
>
> By the way, the dev list is public now:
>
> https://javacc.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectMailingListList


Probably a good call that.

---

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[Laughing Man]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

> > Well, since I have no access to the private forum, I cannot know.
>
> By the way, the dev list is public now:
>
> https://javacc.dev.java.net/servlets/ProjectMailingListList


Probably a good call that.

---

Discover the new Windows Vista Learn more!