Re: Bug#488494: cdebconf: Make the dark theme even more readable

[Samuel Thibault]

Frans Pop, le Tue 15 Jul 2008 12:58:02 +0200, a écrit :
> On Monday 30 June 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Oops, I should have explained indeed: I just meant that we won't get
> > bright colors (e.g. real white) in bterm until bogl gets fixed, i.e.
> > even if the cdebconf part is fixed, the result will be hindered by the
> > bug of bogl.
>
> OK, but that means that it does not actually "block" the change in
> cdebconf. That can be uploaded as is.

Ah, yes.  The comment on
http://www.debian.org/Bugs/server-control.en.html
could probably be more clear on that.

> There is one thing that I noticed. If you tab from a selected item in a
> list to the GoBack button, the selected item gets a blue background. This
> does not seem to really fit with the theme as a whole.
> Some (distinguishable) color difference should be preserved though. In the
> default theme the background of the selected item changes from red to
> blue (against a white window background).
>
> Could you have a look at that Samuel?

I had already actually.  The problem is that the background color is
technically limited to the dark palette, i.e. black, gray, and dark
colors.  Setting the background of the selection to black is obviously
not correct unless we change the foreground color, but I'm afraid only
changing the foreground color does not provide enough contrast.  Leaving
it gray provides confusion about what currently has keyboard focus.
That's why I left it blue, which lets the user know which element is
selected, but still be different from gray, for less confusion.

I don't know if another color would fit better, anybody on the list
would have an idea?  To test, just boot the mini-ISO on
http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso
press tab, and type theme=dark

Samuel


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[Frans Pop-3]

On Tuesday 15 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> I had already actually.  The problem is that the background color is

OK :-)

> technically limited to the dark palette, i.e. black, gray, and dark
> colors.  Setting the background of the selection to black is obviously
> not correct unless we change the foreground color, but I'm afraid only
> changing the foreground color does not provide enough contrast.
> Leaving it gray provides confusion about what currently has keyboard
> focus. That's why I left it blue, which lets the user know which
> element is selected, but still be different from gray, for less
> confusion.
>
> I don't know if another color would fit better, anybody on the list
> would have an idea?

Are there any colors that are bad because they "look" like grey to some
colorblind users? If not, I think I'd personally prefer dark red over
dark blue with dark grey.

Another thing you could look at is to make this extra color appear a bit
more in the theme than it does now, for example as the background color
around the border or for the border itself. That would make it look a bit
less "random".
In the end it's probably just a question of trying a few things and
finding something that looks decent.

Leaving it as it is now is also an option of course. Basically I just
noticed it and it struck me as illogical.

Cheers,
FJP


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[Samuel Thibault]

Frans Pop, le Tue 15 Jul 2008 18:17:16 +0200, a écrit :
> > I don't know if another color would fit better, anybody on the list
> > would have an idea?
>
> Are there any colors that are bad because they "look" like grey to some
> colorblind users?

I've no idea, that's why I ask for people on debian-accessibility to
test :)

Samuel


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[Samuel Thibault]

Frans Pop, le Tue 15 Jul 2008 18:17:16 +0200, a écrit :
> Are there any colors that are bad because they "look" like grey to some
> colorblind users? If not, I think I'd personally prefer dark red over
> dark blue with dark grey.

For people on the list to test it, I've put a second mini.iso on
http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-red.iso

Samuel


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[Richard Rafalski]

Hi Samuel,

I have took a first look to the two images. For a total color blind
person like me the mini.iso image looks very good. With one exception:
The percent number and the percent sign on the progress bars are very
hard to read. It's because the progress bar is bright and the font color
is bright too. May be it is possible to change the font color if the
progess bar reach the percent number.

The change in the mini-red.iso is a big drawback. For me it is not easy
to distinguish between balck and red. So in general black on red or red
on black is a bad idea.

This is my first impression. If I will get a litle more time I will test
the images closer.

Ritchi

Samuel Thibault schrieb:

> Frans Pop, le Tue 15 Jul 2008 18:17:16 +0200, a écrit :
>> Are there any colors that are bad because they "look" like grey to some
>> colorblind users? If not, I think I'd personally prefer dark red over
>> dark blue with dark grey.
>
> For people on the list to test it, I've put a second mini.iso on
> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-red.iso
>
> Samuel
>
>

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[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Richard Rafalski, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 16:32:35 +0200, a écrit :
> The percent number and the percent sign on the progress bars are very
> hard to read. It's because the progress bar is bright and the font color
> is bright too. May be it is possible to change the font color if the
> progess bar reach the percent number.

It's not easy to do that without quite some code change. But maybe we
can set it as white on blue?  I've put an image on

http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-progress.iso

> The change in the mini-red.iso is a big drawback. For me it is not easy
> to distinguish between balck and red. So in general black on red or red
> on black is a bad idea.

Ok.  Would, on the other hand, blue be a problem for other kind of
blindness?

Samuel


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[Richard Rafalski]

Hello,

Samuel Thibault schrieb:

> Hello,
>
> Richard Rafalski, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 16:32:35 +0200, a écrit :
>> The percent number and the percent sign on the progress bars are very
>> hard to read. It's because the progress bar is bright and the font color
>> is bright too. May be it is possible to change the font color if the
>> progess bar reach the percent number.
>
> It's not easy to do that without quite some code change. But maybe we
> can set it as white on blue?  I've put an image on
>
> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-progress.iso
>

That's very good.

>> The change in the mini-red.iso is a big drawback. For me it is not easy
>> to distinguish between balck and red. So in general black on red or red
>> on black is a bad idea.
>
> Ok.  Would, on the other hand, blue be a problem for other kind of
> blindness?

I think blue instead red is here a good choice too.

While I made a full installation with the last image a new point arise.
In the dialog 'software selection' one can select items. A selected item
is marked with an asterisk. If the cursor is moved to a selected item
the asterisk becomes very bad visible. A blue cursor may solve the
problem here too.

Ritchi




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[Samuel Thibault]

Richard Rafalski, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 00:43:43 +0200, a écrit :
> A selected item is marked with an asterisk. If the cursor is moved to
> a selected item the asterisk becomes very bad visible. A blue cursor
> may solve the problem here too.

Or maybe put the asterisk black on gray, for coherency with other
focused elements?

Samuel


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[Samuel Thibault]

Samuel Thibault, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 00:59:31 +0100, a écrit :
> Richard Rafalski, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 00:43:43 +0200, a écrit :
> > A selected item is marked with an asterisk. If the cursor is moved to
> > a selected item the asterisk becomes very bad visible. A blue cursor
> > may solve the problem here too.
>
> Or maybe put the asterisk black on gray, for coherency with other
> focused elements?

I've put an image doing this on
http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso
And an image using white on blue as you suggested on
http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-blue.iso

Samuel


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[Richard Rafalski]

Hallo,

Samuel Thibault schrieb:

> Samuel Thibault, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 00:59:31 +0100, a écrit :
>> Richard Rafalski, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 00:43:43 +0200, a écrit :
>>> A selected item is marked with an asterisk. If the cursor is moved to
>>> a selected item the asterisk becomes very bad visible. A blue cursor
>>> may solve the problem here too.
>> Or maybe put the asterisk black on gray, for coherency with other
>> focused elements?
>
> I've put an image doing this on
> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso
> And an image using white on blue as you suggested on
> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-blue.iso
>

Thank you for the images. Both look good. It is ok to use the black
asterisk an the gray background.

Ritchi




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[Samuel Thibault]

Richard Rafalski, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 17:08:07 +0200, a écrit :
> >I've put an image doing this on
> >http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini.iso
> >And an image using white on blue as you suggested on
> >http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-blue.iso
> >
> Thank you for the images. Both look good. It is ok to use the black
> asterisk an the gray background.

Ok, so for coherency we should probably go with the black on gray.
Here is a patch that fixes the progression bar too.

Samuel

Index: src/modules/frontend/newt/newt.c
===================================================================
--- src/modules/frontend/newt/newt.c (r�vision 54394)
+++ src/modules/frontend/newt/newt.c (copie de travail)
@@ -89,7 +89,8 @@
  "black", "lightgray", /* button fg, bg */
  "gray", "brightred", /* active button fg, bg */
  "white", "gray", /* checkbox fg, bg */
- "yellow", "brown", /* active checkbox fg, bg */
+ /*"yellow", "brown",*/ /* active checkbox fg, bg */
+ "black", "lightgray", /* active checkbox fg, bg */
  /*"yellow", "blue",*/ /* entry box fg, bg */
  "white", "black", /* entry box fg, bg */
  /*"blue", "lightgray",*/ /* label fg, bg */
@@ -104,9 +105,9 @@
  "white", "black", /* help line */
  "yellow", "blue", /* root text */
  /*"blue",*/ /* scale full */
- "gray", /* scale full */
+ "black", /* scale full */
  /*"red",*/ /* scale empty */
- "lightgray", /* scale empty */
+ "blue", /* scale empty */
  "blue", "lightgray", /* disabled entry fg, bg */
  /*"black", "lightgray",*/ /* compact button fg, bg */
  "white", "black", /* compact button fg, bg */

[Frans Pop-3]

On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Ok, so for coherency we should probably go with the black on gray.
> Here is a patch that fixes the progression bar too.

Committed in SVN.


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[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Frans Pop, le Fri 18 Jul 2008 08:05:17 +0200, a écrit :
> On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > Ok, so for coherency we should probably go with the black on gray.
> > Here is a patch that fixes the progression bar too.
>
> Committed in SVN.

Thanks, however slang was written by american people, so the UK
orthography is not recognized, it has to be lightgray, see attached
patch.

Samuel

Index: src/modules/frontend/newt/newt.c
===================================================================
--- src/modules/frontend/newt/newt.c (r�vision 54429)
+++ src/modules/frontend/newt/newt.c (copie de travail)
@@ -90,7 +90,7 @@
  "gray", "brightred", /* active button fg, bg */
  "white", "gray", /* checkbox fg, bg */
  /*"yellow", "brown",*/ /* active checkbox fg, bg */
- "black", "lightgrey", /* active checkbox fg, bg */
+ "black", "lightgray", /* active checkbox fg, bg */
  /*"yellow", "blue",*/ /* entry box fg, bg */
  "white", "black", /* entry box fg, bg */
  /*"blue", "lightgray",*/ /* label fg, bg */

[Frans Pop-3]

On Friday 18 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Thanks, however slang was written by american people, so the UK
> orthography is not recognized, it has to be lightgray, see attached
> patch.

Fixed.


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