Re: ... when editing R documents, 'delete' key behaves as 'backspace'

[Martin Maechler]

[Forwarded from a semi-private communication in ESS-bugs]

>>>>> "StEgl" == Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@...>
>>>>>     on Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:21:23 +0100 writes:

    >> I have found a solution to this problem: All I need to do
    >> is to comment out line 173 of ess-mode.el, which says:
    >> (define-key ess-mode-map "\177"
    >> 'backward-delete-char-untabify) After this line is
    >> commented out, DEL key deletes forward, the same as in
    >> all other modes.  Does that mean that it was an intended
    >> behavior in ESS?

    StEgl> great, thanks for reporting this.  That code has
    StEgl> probably been there a long time, so I'd imagine that
    StEgl> yes, its intended.  Stephen

It definitely was back then 15-20 years ago.
But in those times, I don't think that the concept
 of <forward deletion>  via the delete key as opposed
 to <backward deletion> via the backspace key
was as (almost?) universal as now.


I've not used the <delete> key in ESS (or Emacs at that)
at all in the last 10 years or so,
but because of the changed "universal" behavior,
I propose that we *drop* this behavior from ess-mode {the one
for editing *.R, *.S, *.q,  *.SAS, ... files) in ESS.

Of course we need to hear further opinions.
For that reason, I'm forwarding this communication to ESS-help
hoping to get feedback.

Martin Maechler

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[Dr. Alun Pope]

Could you please clarify which behaviour you are suggesting to drop?
That is, which is "this behaviour"?

Thanks.
Alun

-----Original Message-----
From: ess-help-bounces@...
[mailto:ess-help-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Martin Maechler
Sent: Monday, 8 September 2008 5:13 PM
To: ess-help@...; Marek Jarocinski
Cc: ess-bugs@...
Subject: Re: [ESS] ... when editing R documents,'delete' key behaves as
'backspace'

[Forwarded from a semi-private communication in ESS-bugs]

>>>>> "StEgl" == Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@...>
>>>>>     on Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:21:23 +0100 writes:

    >> I have found a solution to this problem: All I need to do
    >> is to comment out line 173 of ess-mode.el, which says:
    >> (define-key ess-mode-map "\177"
    >> 'backward-delete-char-untabify) After this line is
    >> commented out, DEL key deletes forward, the same as in
    >> all other modes.  Does that mean that it was an intended
    >> behavior in ESS?

    StEgl> great, thanks for reporting this.  That code has
    StEgl> probably been there a long time, so I'd imagine that
    StEgl> yes, its intended.  Stephen

It definitely was back then 15-20 years ago.
But in those times, I don't think that the concept
 of <forward deletion>  via the delete key as opposed
 to <backward deletion> via the backspace key
was as (almost?) universal as now.


I've not used the <delete> key in ESS (or Emacs at that)
at all in the last 10 years or so,
but because of the changed "universal" behavior,
I propose that we *drop* this behavior from ess-mode {the one
for editing *.R, *.S, *.q,  *.SAS, ... files) in ESS.

Of course we need to hear further opinions.
For that reason, I'm forwarding this communication to ESS-help
hoping to get feedback.

Martin Maechler

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ESS-help@... mailing list
https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/ess-help

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[Martin Maechler]

>>>>> "AP" == Alun Pope <AlunPope@...>
>>>>>     on Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:25:09 +1000 writes:

    AP> Could you please clarify which behaviour you are
    AP> suggesting to drop?  That is, which is "this behaviour"?

the one mentioned in the 'Subject' and below.

The proposal is to make <Delete> in ess-mode behave as it does
otherwise in emacs.
NOTA BENE:  <Delete> != <Backspace>

Martin

    AP> Thanks.  Alun

    AP> -----Original Message----- From:
    AP> ess-help-bounces@...
    AP> [mailto:ess-help-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
    AP> Martin Maechler Sent: Monday, 8 September 2008 5:13 PM
    AP> To: ess-help@...; Marek Jarocinski Cc:
    AP> ess-bugs@... Subject: Re: [ESS] ... when
    AP> editing R documents,'delete' key behaves as 'backspace'

    AP> [Forwarded from a semi-private communication in
    AP> ESS-bugs]

>>>>> "StEgl" == Stephen Eglen <S.J.Eglen@...>
>>>>>     on Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:21:23 +0100 writes:

    >>> I have found a solution to this problem: All I need to
    >>> do is to comment out line 173 of ess-mode.el, which
    >>> says: (define-key ess-mode-map "\177"
    >>> 'backward-delete-char-untabify) After this line is
    >>> commented out, DEL key deletes forward, the same as in
    >>> all other modes.  Does that mean that it was an intended
    >>> behavior in ESS?

    StEgl> great, thanks for reporting this.  That code has
    StEgl> probably been there a long time, so I'd imagine that
    StEgl> yes, its intended.  Stephen

    AP> It definitely was back then 15-20 years ago.  But in
    AP> those times, I don't think that the concept of <forward
    AP> deletion> via the delete key as opposed to <backward
    AP> deletion> via the backspace key was as (almost?)
    AP> universal as now.


    AP> I've not used the <delete> key in ESS (or Emacs at that)
    AP> at all in the last 10 years or so, but because of the
    AP> changed "universal" behavior, I propose that we *drop*
    AP> this behavior from ess-mode {the one for editing *.R,
    AP> *.S, *.q, *.SAS, ... files) in ESS.

    AP> Of course we need to hear further opinions.  For that
    AP> reason, I'm forwarding this communication to ESS-help
    AP> hoping to get feedback.

    AP> Martin Maechler

    AP> ______________________________________________
    AP> ESS-help@... mailing list
    AP> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/ess-help

    AP> ______________________________________________________
    AP> This email has been scanned by the Access
    AP> Networks/MessageLabs Email Security System.For more
    AP> information please visit http://www.indicium.com.au/
    AP> ______________________________________________________

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[Rodney Sparapani]

Martin Maechler wrote:

>     >> I have found a solution to this problem: All I need to do
>     >> is to comment out line 173 of ess-mode.el, which says:
>     >> (define-key ess-mode-map "\177"
>     >> 'backward-delete-char-untabify) After this line is
>     >> commented out, DEL key deletes forward, the same as in
>     >> all other modes.  Does that mean that it was an intended
>     >> behavior in ESS?
>
>     StEgl> great, thanks for reporting this.  That code has
>     StEgl> probably been there a long time, so I'd imagine that
>     StEgl> yes, its intended.  Stephen
>
> It definitely was back then 15-20 years ago.
> But in those times, I don't think that the concept
>  of <forward deletion>  via the delete key as opposed
>  to <backward deletion> via the backspace key
> was as (almost?) universal as now.
>
>
> I've not used the <delete> key in ESS (or Emacs at that)
> at all in the last 10 years or so,
> but because of the changed "universal" behavior,
> I propose that we *drop* this behavior from ess-mode {the one
> for editing *.R, *.S, *.q,  *.SAS, ... files) in ESS.
>
> Of course we need to hear further opinions.
> For that reason, I'm forwarding this communication to ESS-help
> hoping to get feedback.
>
> Martin Maechler

There may be considerable bit-rot in that file.  For example, the
two previous lines, 171-172, no longer appear to be necessary either.
But, unless there is some breakage, I think we should leave 171-172
alone.  However, I agree that 173 should be changed as proposed.
I'd only add that there is no backspace key on Mac keyboards.  It
is actually labeled the delete key, but I think you have a choice
in Settings as to whether it deletes forward or backward and I think
backward is the default.

Rodney

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[Kasper Daniel Hansen]

On Sep 8, 2008, at 2:27 PM, Rodney Sparapani wrote:

> Martin Maechler wrote:
>
>>    >> I have found a solution to this problem: All I need to do
>>    >> is to comment out line 173 of ess-mode.el, which says:
>>    >> (define-key ess-mode-map "\177"
>>    >> 'backward-delete-char-untabify) After this line is
>>    >> commented out, DEL key deletes forward, the same as in
>>    >> all other modes.  Does that mean that it was an intended
>>    >> behavior in ESS?
>>    StEgl> great, thanks for reporting this.  That code has
>>    StEgl> probably been there a long time, so I'd imagine that
>>    StEgl> yes, its intended.  Stephen
>> It definitely was back then 15-20 years ago.
>> But in those times, I don't think that the concept
>> of <forward deletion>  via the delete key as opposed  to <backward  
>> deletion> via the backspace key
>> was as (almost?) universal as now.
>> I've not used the <delete> key in ESS (or Emacs at that)
>> at all in the last 10 years or so, but because of the changed  
>> "universal" behavior,
>> I propose that we *drop* this behavior from ess-mode {the one
>> for editing *.R, *.S, *.q,  *.SAS, ... files) in ESS.
>> Of course we need to hear further opinions.
>> For that reason, I'm forwarding this communication to ESS-help
>> hoping to get feedback.
>> Martin Maechler
>
> There may be considerable bit-rot in that file.  For example, the
> two previous lines, 171-172, no longer appear to be necessary either.
> But, unless there is some breakage, I think we should leave 171-172
> alone.  However, I agree that 173 should be changed as proposed.
> I'd only add that there is no backspace key on Mac keyboards.  It
> is actually labeled the delete key, but I think you have a choice
> in Settings as to whether it deletes forward or backward and I think
> backward is the default.

Eh, what exactly do you mean? On all the mac keyboards I have been  
using (which are mostly laptop keyboards, but includes the newer wired  
"flat" keyboard), backspace is backspace exactly as it is on the Sun  
keyboard I am using right now. There is a marker on the backspace key  
saying "delete", but that just indicates that pressing "Fn +  
Backspace" gets a delete behaviour.

Here I tactically assume that backspace standard behaviour is to  
delete backwards and delete is to delete forwards.

Kasper

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[Rodney Sparapani]

Kasper Daniel Hansen wrote:

>
> Eh, what exactly do you mean? On all the mac keyboards I have been
> using (which are mostly laptop keyboards, but includes the newer wired
> "flat" keyboard), backspace is backspace exactly as it is on the Sun
> keyboard I am using right now. There is a marker on the backspace key
> saying "delete", but that just indicates that pressing "Fn +
> Backspace" gets a delete behaviour.
>
> Here I tactically assume that backspace standard behaviour is to
> delete backwards and delete is to delete forwards.
>
> Kasper

Hi Kasper:

Just to be sure, I checked every Mac in my house: 3 iMacs, a
PowerBook and a MacBook. All have the delete key to backspace
and the desktops have another delete key further to the right
with [x> on them signifying forward delete.

--
Rodney Sparapani      Center for Patient Care & Outcomes Research (PCOR)
Sr. Biostatistician              Department of Medicine
Was 'Name That Tune' rigged?     Medical College of Wisconsin (MCW)
WWLD: What Would Lombardi Do     Milwaukee, WI, USA

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[Rodney Sparapani]

Kasper Daniel Hansen wrote:

> Eh, what exactly do you mean? On all the mac keyboards I have been using
> (which are mostly laptop keyboards, but includes the newer wired "flat"
> keyboard), backspace is backspace exactly as it is on the Sun keyboard I
> am using right now. There is a marker on the backspace key saying
> "delete", but that just indicates that pressing "Fn + Backspace" gets a
> delete behaviour.
>
> Here I tactically assume that backspace standard behaviour is to delete
> backwards and delete is to delete forwards.
>
> Kasper
>

Hi Kasper:

Just what I said.  I checked several Macs and they are just as I
described.  The delete key backspaces.  And, on desktops, there is
an additional delete key to the right which has the icon something
like [x> which signifies forward delete.  I don't have a "flat"
keyboard so I can't say anything about the most recent equipment.

Rodney

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[Sebastian P. Luque]

On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 09:43:54 +0200,
Martin Maechler <maechler@...> wrote:

>>>>>> "AP" == Alun Pope <AlunPope@...> on Mon, 8 Sep 2008
>>>>>> 17:25:09 +1000 writes:

AP> Could you please clarify which behaviour you are suggesting to drop?
AP> That is, which is "this behaviour"?

> the one mentioned in the 'Subject' and below.

> The proposal is to make <Delete> in ess-mode behave as it does
> otherwise in emacs.  NOTA BENE: <Delete> != <Backspace>

With the latest 5.3.10 version, I see inconsistent behaviour of the
<delete> key.  In ESS mode, this key calls
`backward-delete-char-untabify', but in inferior ESS mode it calls
`delete-char' (i.e. forward deletion).  It used to do the latter in both
cases in my system (GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+
Version 2.12.11) of 2008-11-29 on elegiac, modified by Debian).  I can't
see the relevant change in the docs.  What has happened on this front?
Thanks.


--
Seb

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