Re: [admin] Re: [ANN] Announcing 4D v11 SQL

[Tom Dillon-2]

Dan Babcock sez:

>Okay, my question is IF this is a business list topic.  WHY was it  
>ever posted on the TECH list?

Because it was an announcement.

>Soon as there is questioning of 4D,  
>it's move to the biz list = kill discussion.

Why does this kill the discussion? Only the people who don't subscribe
to the Biz list consider the discussion "killed". Only those who don't
want to read nontechnical discussion, except when it's their post, don't
subscribe to the Biz list.

>This hypocrisy is getting very old.  4D has taken over the list and  
>advertises on it, sends their product announcements, etc.  Since when  
>are all those ads 4D puts on every message relevant to the tech  
>community.  The NUG is getting reduced to an advertising vehicle for 4D.

The rules were a LOT more stringently enforced when Karen "No Soup For
You" Sabog was the List Mom. (Many of us miss her velvet gloved iron
fist.) Someone saying that a non-technical discussion needs to be moved
to the Biz list, as per the stated list rules, is hardly reason to call
4D, Inc. a Big Brother wanna be.

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[Mikey-3]

Um, guys, I know for a FACT that Karen lurks here, so watch it.  She
has backdoor passwords to EVERYTHING and can make you, your money,
your family, and your posting privileges disappear like that.  Be
afraid.  Be VERY AFRAID!

Aloha Karen!
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[Tom Dillon-2]

Yep, I know she's watching. :-)

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[Max Morrison]

I'm looking at <http://www.4d.com/products/Dev-comparative.html> and  
wondering about the pricing... I take it that the price shown at the  
bottom of the page is not the upgrade cost.  Is that a ridiculous  
assumption, or where might I find a definitive answer.  Thanks.


max

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[Dietmar Harms]

>> Okay, my question is IF this is a business list topic.
>> WHY was it ever posted on the TECH list?
>
> Because it was an announcement.

uhm ... but isn't this a business announcement and thus should be  
made to the biz list in the first place?

>> Soon as there is questioning of 4D,
>> it's move to the biz list = kill discussion.
>
> Why does this kill the discussion?

Just count the serious replies to this thread :-)

Dietmar

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[Max Morrison]

On Sep 25, 2007, at 1:14 PM, Dietmar Harms wrote:

>>> Soon as there is questioning of 4D,
>>> it's move to the biz list = kill discussion.
>>
>> Why does this kill the discussion?
>
> Just count the serious replies to this thread :-)


So I did a little normative (for conventional 4D Tech-list wisdom)  
experiment.  Ask a question on the Biz-list pertaining to a Biz-list  
issue being bantered about on the Tech-list.  See if/how many replies  
the not-too-sophisticated, not-too-obvious question elicits.  I would  
think it reasonable for one reply to constitute an argument against  
Dan Babcock's assertion that "move to the biz list = kill  
discussion," given that the supposed population of Biz is  
significantly smaller than Tech (so I hear).  The initial message  
showed up at approximately 11:15 AM, AK time ~ 8:15 PM, GMT, if my  
reckoning is close.  We're now a half'a work day on; functionally,  
that's enough time.  I've factored into my thinking the notion that  
even had I asked the question on the Tech-list it might not have  
elicited any responses there either, given that I'm not a Tech  
regular/luminary to whom others invariably respond or, perhaps, it  
might be the time of day, the fact that I'm not a partner, others are  
busy actually writing code, running down bugs, drumming up business,  
etc., etc.  Though predictable and sufficient, such considerations  
are not reliable nor necessarily factual one way or the other...  
there does occur a fair amount of pay-it-forward on 4D-Tech  
(applause) and even a naer-do-well such as myself lucks-out virtually  
every time (in point of fact).  It would appear then that Dan's  
argument is at least more valid than not, and presumedly taken as  
fact by a significant majority.  So the counter-contention that  
certain discussions should be moved appears, on the face of it,  
whether intentional or not, a de facto death sentence and something  
that savvy list-mites do better to ignore — chancing that they're not  
the one to get their list privileges suspended... for reasons that  
don't appear logically consistent, or at least not dispensed with  
impartiality.

I can only hope that all those in support of the notion of moving  
discussions are subscribers to the Biz (and, gasp, the Pub) list  
because if 4D ever starts walking the walk some—check that, most—of  
us will apparently be missing out on those little New Product  
Announcements, with their associated and necessary (not) gripes and  
cheers.


max

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[Josh Fletcher (4D, Inc.)]

Hi Max,

The folks in 4D Sales would be more than happy to answer any questions
about have about pricing:

http://www.4d.com/purchaseoptions.html

The link above assumes, of course, that you are in the US.  If not,
there is an "International Sales" link on the same page.

Kind regards,

Josh Fletcher

Max Morrison wrote:
> I'm looking at <http://www.4d.com/products/Dev-comparative.html> and  
> wondering about the pricing... I take it that the price shown at the  
> bottom of the page is not the upgrade cost.  Is that a ridiculous  
> assumption, or where might I find a definitive answer.  Thanks.
>
>
> max

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Technical Support Engineer
4D, Inc.
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[Max Morrison]

Hi Josh,

Thanks so much for your reply...  I found what I was looking for  
under the heading: 4D Developer Standard v11 SQL - Upgrade from  
2004.  A link off the 4DDepot page <http://store.4ddepot.com/>.  But  
I couldn't get there from the Development Comparison page <http://www.
4d.com/products/Dev-comparative.html> where I found the retail  
purchase price (not that it should be there).  Took a little more  
snooping... but not an issue... nor the thrust of my rant, really.

Nevertheless, thanks again for your reply.


max


On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:36 PM, Josh Fletcher (4D, Inc.) wrote:

> Hi Max,
>
> The folks in 4D Sales would be more than happy to answer any  
> questions about have about pricing:
>
> http://www.4d.com/purchaseoptions.html
>
> The link above assumes, of course, that you are in the US.  If not,  
> there is an "International Sales" link on the same page.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Josh Fletcher
>
> Max Morrison wrote:
>> I'm looking at <http://www.4d.com/products/Dev-comparative.html>  
>> and  wondering about the pricing... I take it that the price shown  
>> at the  bottom of the page is not the upgrade cost.  Is that a  
>> ridiculous  assumption, or where might I find a definitive  
>> answer.  Thanks.
>> max
>
> --
> Josh Fletcher
> Technical Support Engineer
> 4D, Inc.
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[Tom Dillon-2]

Max Morrison sez:

>So [snip] cheers.

It may, in fact, kill a discussion to move it to the Biz list (which
should IMHO be called 4D Non-Tech List). My contention is simply that
this is because those who argue that the discussion should remain on the
Tech List are those who say they don't want to join the Biz List because
they only want to read technical posts. It's kinda like, "It's too smoky
in the smoking section, I want to smoke here in the non-smoking section."

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[Larry White-3]

Yep I agree with this (both parts).  The simple solution is two fold -

1.  Get people to sub to the biz list; or,

2.  Sub people to both list automatically.

#2 works for me.  They can send it to the trash if they don't want to read
it.  Of course we could just post anything and everything to the tech list
and allow a free for all.  Doubt that would go over well either <grin>.

"You can't please everyone all the time."

Cheers,
--
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President & Chief Engineer
>Pelican Engineering, Inc.
>>ISO 9001:2000 registered
lwhite@...
www.pelicaneng.ca



On 9/25/07 9:59 PM, "Tom Dillon" <tomdillonlists@...> wrote:

> It may, in fact, kill a discussion to move it to the Biz list (which
> should IMHO be called 4D Non-Tech List)


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[Max Morrison]

Tom,

Your contention is valid to me — 100%.  I fully support and endeavor  
to practice it.  My comments could not but use what you said in an  
effort to come to terms with what the powers that be practice.  I  
also fully agree with your notion that some (many) who only sub to  
the Tech list abuse it and the rest of us.  Hopefully you'll trust in  
the future that any snowball throwing between you and I would be off-
list unless pertinent.  ;-)  My fight was never about what you said.  
Apologies for any confusion.


max



On Sep 25, 2007, at 4:59 PM, Tom Dillon wrote:

> Max Morrison sez:
>
>> So [snip] cheers.
>
> It may, in fact, kill a discussion to move it to the Biz list (which
> should IMHO be called 4D Non-Tech List). My contention is simply that
> this is because those who argue that the discussion should remain  
> on the
> Tech List are those who say they don't want to join the Biz List  
> because
> they only want to read technical posts. It's kinda like, "It's too  
> smoky
> in the smoking section, I want to smoke here in the non-smoking  
> section."

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[Max Morrison]

Ditto for me.


max


On Sep 25, 2007, at 5:05 PM, Larry White wrote:

> Yep I agree with this (both parts).  The simple solution is two fold -
>
> 1.  Get people to sub to the biz list; or,
>
> 2.  Sub people to both list automatically.
>
> #2 works for me.  They can send it to the trash if they don't want  
> to read
> it.  Of course we could just post anything and everything to the  
> tech list
> and allow a free for all.  Doubt that would go over well either  
> <grin>.
>
> "You can't please everyone all the time."
>

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[Larry White-3]

Someone should enlighten me on who these are...
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President & Chief Engineer
>Pelican Engineering, Inc.
>>ISO 9001:2000 registered
lwhite@...
www.pelicaneng.ca



On 9/25/07 10:08 PM, "Max Morrison" <maxxie@...> wrote:

> effort to come to terms with what the powers that be practice.


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[Max Morrison]

That might better be described as a Pub discussion Larry, and perhaps  
better left for Memphis and a Guinness, if you're really interested.


max


On Sep 25, 2007, at 5:11 PM, Larry White wrote:

> Someone should enlighten me on who these are...
> --
> Larry White, P.Eng.
> President & Chief Engineer
>> Pelican Engineering, Inc.
>>> ISO 9001:2000 registered
> lwhite@...
> www.pelicaneng.ca
>
>
>
> On 9/25/07 10:08 PM, "Max Morrison" <maxxie@...> wrote:
>
>> effort to come to terms with what the powers that be practice.
>
>
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[Mehboob Alam-5]

I concur... we have one short evening to bitch and get our
frustrations out, amongst friends..
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[Tom Dillon-2]

Max Morrison sez:

>My fight was never about what you said.

10-4 good buddy, and my [snip] was just an attempt to keep things brief
and light.


Larry White sez:

>Yep I agree with this (both parts).  The simple solution is two fold -
>
>1.  Get people to sub to the biz list; or,
>
>2.  Sub people to both list automatically.
>
>#2 works for me.  They can send it to the trash if they don't want to read
>it.

I think #2 is a good choice, that and maybe rename it to 4D Non-Tech or
4D Discussion, or how about 4D Yo?

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[Dan Katz-2]

I assume this replaces 'Runtime Volume Licence' nee '4D Engine?'
Does it have the sponsor message and, if so, is there a version
available that doesn't?

Dan

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
  Dan Katz
  Outside Technology
  PO Box 685
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  http://www.outsidetech.com

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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