Question about Debian Linux on Soekris boards

[Robin Kipp]

Hello list!
As I'd like to have a small server at home for various purposes and
Linux experiments but don't want to purchase a whole computer, I'd be
very interested in an embedded PC from Soekris. I'd like to install
Debian Linux on it which is my prefered Linux distribution really. Well,
this won't be my first embedded PC actually, I purchased an Alix 2c2
from PCEngines a few months ago and tried to install Debian on the
Compact Flash card using the computer, however I couldn't boot the
device. I even purchased an IDE2CF adapter that  let me connect a
Compact Flash card to an IDE BUS directly which I did, but still it
didn't work out. The PCEngines support is very bad I must say and
replies to my questions were often to short or just rude and it was
clear that the only guy who seems to work for this company has no idea
about the stuff that he's selling, so I decided to return the components
purchased by PCEngines. As I've heard many good things about Soekris and
their products, I'm very interested in buying one of their embedded PCs.
All I need is 1 or 2 network interfaces, 512 MB RAM, 500GHZ CPU and a
serial console interface. Can anyone here suggest a model that suits me?
Also, has anyone been able to install a Linux distribution such as
Debian without compiling and all that? In this case, I'd apreciate if
someone could tell me what he / she did because I'd really like to get
started with a working embedded PC and don't have another Linux system
available for compiling and so on. Thanks in advance for any help! Robin


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[Richard Gooch-2]

Robin Kipp writes:

> Hello list!
> As I'd like to have a small server at home for various purposes and
> Linux experiments but don't want to purchase a whole computer, I'd
> be very interested in an embedded PC from Soekris. I'd like to
> install Debian Linux on it which is my prefered Linux distribution
> really. Well, this won't be my first embedded PC actually, I
> purchased an Alix 2c2 from PCEngines a few months ago and tried to
> install Debian on the Compact Flash card using the computer, however
> I couldn't boot the device. I even purchased an IDE2CF adapter that
> let me connect a Compact Flash card to an IDE BUS directly which I
> did, but still it didn't work out. The PCEngines support is very bad
> I must say and replies to my questions were often to short or just
> rude and it was clear that the only guy who seems to work for this
> company has no idea about the stuff that he's selling, so I decided
> to return the components purchased by PCEngines. As I've heard many
> good things about Soekris and their products, I'm very interested in
> buying one of their embedded PCs.  All I need is 1 or 2 network
> interfaces, 512 MB RAM, 500GHZ CPU and a serial console
> interface. Can anyone here suggest a model that suits me?  Also, has
> anyone been able to install a Linux distribution such as Debian
> without compiling and all that? In this case, I'd apreciate if
> someone could tell me what he / she did because I'd really like to
> get started with a working embedded PC and don't have another Linux
> system available for compiling and so on. Thanks in advance for any
> help! Robin

I've run Debian sarge and etch on a Soekris 4801 and a PCEngines WRAP.
The WRAP doesn't have a keyboard interface and the driver gets a
little chatty. Also you need to use the BIOS to reboot. So, the
following kernel command-line is what I use: "reboot=b kbd-disable=1"
(2.6.25 kernel). Both the Soekris and the PCEngines want a generic
i386 kernel, not an i686 kernel.

As far as reliability, the WRAP boards have been great. The 4801 is
kind of unknown (insufficient data) because the Soekris power supplies
are unreliable. Buy your power supply elsewhere.

I haven't played with an Alix board, but their specifications look
good and the prices are good too. Interesting that you weren't able to
get it to boot.

                                Regards,

                                        Richard....

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[Andy Michaels]

> The PCEngines support is very bad I must say and
> replies to my questions were often to short or just rude a

That's too bad, there's been some buzz about them in the recent past.

> As I've heard many good things about Soekris and
> their products, I'm very interested in buying one of their embedded  
> PCs.
> All I need is 1 or 2 network interfaces, 512 MB RAM, 500GHZ CPU and a
> serial console interface.  Can anyone here suggest a model that  
> suits me?

The only thing in that range is the latest, the 5501.

> Also, has anyone been able to install a Linux distribution such as
> Debian without compiling and all that? In this case, I'd apreciate if
> someone could tell me what he / she did because I'd really like to get
> started with a working embedded PC and don't have another Linux system
> available for compiling and so on.

yes, debian works well on the Soekris.  Please see the how-to on http://wiki.soekris.info

> Thanks in advance for any help! Robin

Good luck!

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[Robin Kipp]

Hi Andy,
Thanks for the info, I purchased a Net5501-60 and I can't wait for it to
arrive :-) I'd like to use PXE boot for the Debian install, the only
problem I see it requires a Linux system running TFTPd and DHCPd which I
don't have. Is there maybe a life CD that I could use to boot and that
has the required components?
Robin


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[Andy Michaels]

On Sep 26, 2008, at 7:26 AM, Robin Kipp wrote:

> Hi Andy,
> Thanks for the info, I purchased a Net5501-60 and I can't wait for  
> it to
> arrive :-)

exciting!  If I had the cash (and time) I'd get one, too!  The 4801  
will have to suffice for now :)

> I'd like to use PXE boot for the Debian install, the only
> problem I see it requires a Linux system running TFTPd and DHCPd  
> which I
> don't have.

You don't actually *need* a linux box.  You should be able to get a  
tftp and dhcp server for any OS.  The config steps will be different,  
but the concepts are the same.

> Is there maybe a life CD that I could use to boot and that
> has the required components?

Not that I'm aware of, but debian.org would have the best info.

Alternatively, you might be able to install the IDE2CF adapter in your  
PC, boot off the debian netinstall CD and install to the CF card.  To  
be safe, you should disconnect power from your main drive so you don't  
inadvertently erase anything there.  This is a more drastic option, so  
I'd try finding tftp and dhcp servers first.

HTH!

-Andy
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[Robin Kipp]

Hi Andy,
Thanks a lot for all the info! I tried to install Debian on a CF card
using an IDE2CF-adapter for the Alix board, however the box didn't boot.
As I purchased all that from PCEngines, I also returned the
IDE2CF-adapter to them, because it could be that this is corrupted in
some way as well - I really don't trust them anymore. I'll keep you and
the list up-to-date when something new happens, and if I get a TFTP and
DHCP server running under Windows and can successfully boot the Debian
installer I'll put something in the wiki, too. Enjoy your Soekris box
everyone! :-)
Robin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: soekris-tech-bounces@...
> [mailto:soekris-tech-bounces@...] On Behalf Of
> Andy Michaels
> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 1:39 PM
> To: Tech Soekris
> Subject: Re: [Soekris] Question about Debian Linux on Soekris boards
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 26, 2008, at 7:26 AM, Robin Kipp wrote:
>
> > Hi Andy,
> > Thanks for the info, I purchased a Net5501-60 and I can't wait for
> > it to
> > arrive :-)
>
> exciting!  If I had the cash (and time) I'd get one, too!  The 4801  
> will have to suffice for now :)
>
> > I'd like to use PXE boot for the Debian install, the only problem I
> > see it requires a Linux system running TFTPd and DHCPd
> > which I
> > don't have.
>
> You don't actually *need* a linux box.  You should be able to get a  
> tftp and dhcp server for any OS.  The config steps will be
> different,  
> but the concepts are the same.
>
> > Is there maybe a life CD that I could use to boot and that has the
> > required components?
>
> Not that I'm aware of, but debian.org would have the best info.
>
> Alternatively, you might be able to install the IDE2CF
> adapter in your  
> PC, boot off the debian netinstall CD and install to the CF
> card.  To  
> be safe, you should disconnect power from your main drive so
> you don't  
> inadvertently erase anything there.  This is a more drastic
> option, so  
> I'd try finding tftp and dhcp servers first.
>
> HTH!
>
> -Andy
> _______________________________________________
> Soekris-tech mailing list
> Soekris-tech@...
> http://lists.soekris.com/mailman/listinfo/soek> ris-tech
>

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[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Robin Kipp writes:
> I tried to install Debian on a CF card using an IDE2CF-adapter for the
> Alix board, however the box didn't boot.

Doing it that way is really tricky. It probably will work if you try
hard enough and tear out enough hair, but...

I did that with my 4501 (seven years old now, I think, with never a
problem) and while it worked, the main thing I learned was that
installing via DHCP is better.

In your case I'd try booting from a live linux CD and playing around.
Shouldn't be too hard.

Arnt
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[The Fungi]

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 01:26:54PM +0200, Robin Kipp wrote:
[...]
> Is there maybe a life CD that I could use to boot and that has the
> required components?

Assuming you're talking about booting a non-Linux PC temporarily
from a live CD and configuring it as the PXE/DHCP/TFTP server to
jump your Soekris, and as you said you are already familiar with
Debian, I'd recommend a Debian Live CD:

http://debian-live.alioth.debian.org/

Keep in mind that, as long as it has Internet access, the live image
doesn't need to come pre-installed with the additional tools you
need. Just apt-get install any missing required packages from a
mirror once the live system has booted, and then proceed as normal.
--
{ IRL(Jeremy_Stanley); PGP(9E8DFF2E4F5995F8FEADDC5829ABF7441FB84657);
SMTP(fungi@...); IRC(fungi@...#ccl); ICQ(114362511);
AIM(dreadazathoth); YAHOO(crawlingchaoslabs); FINGER(fungi@...);
MUD(fungi@...:6669); WWW(http://fungi.yuggoth.org/); }
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[Robin Kipp]

Hi,
Thanks, I haven't heard anything about this life distribution yet! I'll
try the TFTP program for Windows first and if that doesn't work I'll try
Debian Life.
Robin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: soekris-tech-bounces@...
> [mailto:soekris-tech-bounces@...] On Behalf Of The Fungi
> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 2:46 PM
> To: soekris-tech@...
> Subject: Re: [Soekris] Question about Debian Linux on Soekris boards
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 01:26:54PM +0200, Robin Kipp wrote: [...]
> > Is there maybe a life CD that I could use to boot and that has the
> > required components?
>
> Assuming you're talking about booting a non-Linux PC
> temporarily from a live CD and configuring it as the
> PXE/DHCP/TFTP server to jump your Soekris, and as you said
> you are already familiar with Debian, I'd recommend a Debian Live CD:
>

http://debian-live.alioth.debian.org/

Keep in mind that, as long as it has Internet access, the live image
doesn't need to come pre-installed with the additional tools you need.
Just apt-get install any missing required packages from a mirror once
the live system has booted, and then proceed as normal.
--
{ IRL(Jeremy_Stanley); PGP(9E8DFF2E4F5995F8FEADDC5829ABF7441FB84657);
SMTP(fungi@...); IRC(fungi@...#ccl); ICQ(114362511);
AIM(dreadazathoth); YAHOO(crawlingchaoslabs); FINGER(fungi@...);
MUD(fungi@...:6669); WWW(http://fungi.yuggoth.org/); }
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[Bill Maas-2]

On Fri, 2008-09-26 at 14:03 +0200, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Robin Kipp writes:
[...]
> In your case I'd try booting from a live linux CD and playing around.
> Shouldn't be too hard.

Just make sure you install tftpd-hpa and not some native TFTP server, or
you might spend a lot of time debugging..

Bill

>
> Arnt
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>
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[Robin Kipp]

Hi,
Thanks for the tip, well I think I'm gonna use the Windows TFTP server,
though...
Robin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: soekris-tech-bounces@...
> [mailto:soekris-tech-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Bill Maas
> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:25 PM
> To: Arnt Gulbrandsen
> Cc: soekris-tech@...
> Subject: Re: [Soekris] Question about Debian Linux on Soekris boards
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2008-09-26 at 14:03 +0200, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> > Robin Kipp writes:
> [...]
> > In your case I'd try booting from a live linux CD and
> playing around.
> > Shouldn't be too hard.
>
> Just make sure you install tftpd-hpa and not some native TFTP
> server, or you might spend a lot of time debugging..
>
> Bill
>
> >
> > Arnt
> > _______________________________________________
> > Soekris-tech mailing list
> > Soekris-tech@...
> > http://lists.soekris.com/mailman/listinfo/soekris-tech
> >
> --
> "There is nothing to worry about" - unknown
>
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[Eric Lammerts-2]

On 09/25/2008 12:35 PM, Robin Kipp wrote:
> Well, this won't be my first embedded PC actually, I purchased an Alix
> 2c2 from PCEngines a few months ago and tried to install Debian on the
> Compact Flash card using the computer, however I couldn't boot the
> device.

I'm using the Alix boards (2c0, 3c1, 3c2), and I am very happy with them.

The only problem I have is that it seems the LBA support in the bios is
broken. This can lead to boot problems if your CF card is bigger than
512Mb. You can work around this problem by partitioning your CF cards
with the same C/H/S values the Alix BIOS is using.

example:
if the Alix board prints this on boot:

01F0 Master 848A SanDisk SDCFH-1024
Phys C/H/S 1986/16/63 Log C/H/S 993/32/63

you should partition the card with sfdisk -C 993 -H 32 -S 63.
(cfdisk -c 993 -h 32 -s 63 should work too, but I haven't tested that).

Eric
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[Robin Kipp]

Hi Eric,
Ah OK, well I returned the board anyway, so... But one question, how
could you partition the CF card like this if you use an installer like
the Debian installer that has a guided partitioning utility? Since this
will overwrite the partition table and reformat the CF card anyway...
Robin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Lammerts [mailto:soekris-tech@...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:20 PM
> To: Robin Kipp
> Cc: soekris-tech@...
> Subject: Re: [Soekris] Question about Debian Linux on Soekris boards
>
>
> On 09/25/2008 12:35 PM, Robin Kipp wrote:
> > Well, this won't be my first embedded PC actually, I
> purchased an Alix
> > 2c2 from PCEngines a few months ago and tried to install
> Debian on the
> > Compact Flash card using the computer, however I couldn't boot the
> > device.
>
> I'm using the Alix boards (2c0, 3c1, 3c2), and I am very
> happy with them.
>
> The only problem I have is that it seems the LBA support in
> the bios is
> broken. This can lead to boot problems if your CF card is bigger than
> 512Mb. You can work around this problem by partitioning your CF cards
> with the same C/H/S values the Alix BIOS is using.
>
> example:
> if the Alix board prints this on boot:
>
> 01F0 Master 848A SanDisk SDCFH-1024
> Phys C/H/S 1986/16/63 Log C/H/S 993/32/63
>
> you should partition the card with sfdisk -C 993 -H 32 -S 63.
> (cfdisk -c 993 -h 32 -s 63 should work too, but I haven't
> tested that).
>
> Eric
>

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[Bill Maas-2]

Hi Robin,

since either no-one else answers your question or the list is down
again, here a a few options:

1. Partition the CF locally (e.g. on a laptop) with custom CHS values:
   fdisk -C cyls -H heads -S sects .....

2. Mount the CF in the Soekris box, boot from TFTP and install from
   the Soekris. In that case CHS will by definition be in accordance
   with what the Soekris comBIOS sees.
   See http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch04s06.html.en
   Very worthwhile learning if you have never done that before, and
   alos very useful combination with 'debootstrap'.

3. Upgrade your Soekris boxes comBIOS if V <= 1.29. The LBA problem
   should no longer be a problem since V1.30. This option should have
   probably been labeled 1;).

By the way, booting with Lilo excludes CHS trouble (within reasonable
limits, of course..).

Bill

On Sat, 2008-09-27 at 21:41 +0200, Robin Kipp wrote:

> Hi Eric,
> Ah OK, well I returned the board anyway, so... But one question, how
> could you partition the CF card like this if you use an installer like
> the Debian installer that has a guided partitioning utility? Since this
> will overwrite the partition table and reformat the CF card anyway...
> Robin
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Eric Lammerts [mailto:soekris-tech@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 9:20 PM
> > To: Robin Kipp
> > Cc: soekris-tech@...
> > Subject: Re: [Soekris] Question about Debian Linux on Soekris boards
> >
> >
> > On 09/25/2008 12:35 PM, Robin Kipp wrote:
> > > Well, this won't be my first embedded PC actually, I
> > purchased an Alix
> > > 2c2 from PCEngines a few months ago and tried to install
> > Debian on the
> > > Compact Flash card using the computer, however I couldn't boot the
> > > device.
> >
> > I'm using the Alix boards (2c0, 3c1, 3c2), and I am very
> > happy with them.
> >
> > The only problem I have is that it seems the LBA support in
> > the bios is
> > broken. This can lead to boot problems if your CF card is bigger than
> > 512Mb. You can work around this problem by partitioning your CF cards
> > with the same C/H/S values the Alix BIOS is using.
> >
> > example:
> > if the Alix board prints this on boot:
> >
> > 01F0 Master 848A SanDisk SDCFH-1024
> > Phys C/H/S 1986/16/63 Log C/H/S 993/32/63
> >
> > you should partition the card with sfdisk -C 993 -H 32 -S 63.
> > (cfdisk -c 993 -h 32 -s 63 should work too, but I haven't
> > tested that).
> >
> > Eric
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Punky-2]

Hi Robin,

Voyage Linux provides a Live CD for PXE install.  VL is derived by Debian.

http://linux.voyage.hk/?q=live-cd

You should download VL 0.5.2 for the latest stable.  PXE install
instruction could be found in /README.pxe

You can use VMWare Server or qemu to both the live CD on Windows.

Regards,
Punky

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 9:21 PM, Robin Kipp <webmaster@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> Thanks, I haven't heard anything about this life distribution yet! I'll
> try the TFTP program for Windows first and if that doesn't work I'll try
> Debian Life.
> Robin
>
--
--
Regards,
Punky

P U N K N ! X  . c o m
Technology + Lifestyle
(http://www.punknix.com)

Voyage Solutions (http://solution.voyage.hk)
* Embedded Solutions and Systems
 - Mesh Networking, Captive Portal, IP Surveillance, VoIP/PBX
 - Network Engineering, Development Platform and Consultation
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