Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last

[sweetGemini]

Hi Guys

 
    Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article to read.


Professionalism =
Knowledge First, Experience Last
By Jurgen Appelo
Do you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental
problems if the doctor tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you
still trust that doctor when he picks up his tools, and asks you to prepare
for a lobotomy?
Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years
of experience in carrying out lobotomies?
I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years
of experience in a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of experience
as a .NET developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager" or "12
years of experience as a development manager". It is as if people's
professional levels need to be measured in years of practice.
This, of course, is nonsense.
Professionalism is measured by what you are going
to do now...
Are you going to use some discredited technique from half
a century ago?
        * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use Response.Write,
because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
        * Are you, as a project manager, going to create Gantt charts,
because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
        * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your
experience...
Here's an example of what it means to be a
professional:
There's a concept called Kanban making headlines these days in some parts of the agile community. I
honestly and proudly admit that I have no experience at all in
applying Kanban. But that's just a minor inconvenience. Because I have
attained the knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for. And
now there are some planning issues in our organization for which this
Kanban-stuff might be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to give it
a shot, in a controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and proper
evaluations afterwards. That's the way a professional tries to
solve a problem.
Professionals don't match problems with their
experiences. They match them with their knowledge.
Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the
knowledge in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to
verify that you are applying the right experience.
Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes
Last
This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional
software developer, a professional project manager, or a professional
development manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and
experience will help you after that. Professionals need to know about the
latest developments and techniques. They certainly don't bother
measuring years of experience.
Are you still practicing lobotomies?

Until next time,
Jurgen Appelo
Visit my
blog


     

[Sherwin John Tragura]

THIS ARTICLE IS PERFECT!


--- On Thu, 7/24/08, Alberto Amarga <jhay_are1984@...> wrote:
From: Alberto Amarga <jhay_are1984@...>
Subject: [pinoyjug] Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last
To: pinoyjug@..., pinoyjug@...
Date: Thursday, July 24, 2008, 10:47 AM










   
            Hi Guys
     Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article to read.

Professionalism =
Knowledge First, Experience Last

By Jurgen AppeloDo you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental
problems if the doctor tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you
still trust that doctor when he picks up his tools, and asks you to prepare
for a lobotomy?Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years
of experience in carrying out lobotomies?I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years
of experience in a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of experience
as a .NET developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager" or "12
years of experience as a development manager". It is as if people's
professional levels need to be measured in years of practice.This, of course, is nonsense.Professionalism is measured by what you are going
to do now...Are you going to use some discredited technique from half
a century ago?Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use Response.Write,
because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?Are you, as a project manager, going to create Gantt charts,
because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
members, as you did in the 12 years before now?If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your
experience.. .Here's an example of what it means to be a
professional:There's a concept called Kanban
making headlines these days in some parts of the agile community. I
honestly and proudly admit that I have no experience at all in
applying Kanban. But that's just a minor inconvenience. Because I have
attained the knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for. And
now there are some planning issues in our organization for which this
Kanban-stuff might be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to give it
a shot, in a controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and proper
evaluations afterwards. That's the way a professional tries to
solve a problem.Professionals don't match problems with their
experiences. They match them with their knowledge.
Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the
knowledge in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to
verify that you are applying the right experience.Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes
Last
This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional
software developer, a professional project manager, or a professional
development manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and
experience will help you after that. Professionals need to know about the
latest developments and techniques. They certainly don't bother
measuring years of experience.Are you still practicing lobotomies?
Until next time,

Jurgen Appelo

Visit my
blog


     
     

   
   
       
         
       
       








       


       
       


     

[mykol]

2cents.. as much as i would like to agree with the blog post, i see some
differences in point of view. it's really nice to put a lesser experienced
professional with someone who has more of it on the same level. but i
believe you can always cram for knowledge of newer technologies, but
impossible to do so with knowledge from experience. there are still lots of
details beyond the scope of specific technologies. experience will teach you
maturity, better decision making skills, recognition of patterns from past
experiences, etc. from a holistic viewpoint, lots of details still that are
out of reach by the technology you use. don't get me wrong. i'm still one of
the least seniors among the bunch i'm in, and i would always love to be
treated as an equal (and should be). but you should never lose respect to
those who have more experience than you. i'm talking from experience (no pun
intended :0) ). to summarize, knowledge (technology specific that is) and
experience should be on equal footing. :) bow


---
http://noisyheads.com
http://groups.google.com/group/philippine-groovy-users

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Alberto Amarga <jhay_are1984@...>
wrote:

>   Hi Guys
>
>     Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article to
> read.
> *
> *
>
> *Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last*
> By Jurgen Appelo
>
> Do you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental problems if the doctor
> tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you still trust that doctor
> when he picks up his tools, and asks you to prepare for a lobotomy?
>
> Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years of experience in
> carrying out lobotomies?
>
> I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years of experience in
> a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of experience as a .NET
> developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager" or "12 years of
> experience as a development manager". It is as if people's professional
> levels need to be measured in years of practice.
>
> This, of course, is nonsense.
>
> *Professionalism is measured by what you are going to do now...*
>
> Are you going to use some discredited technique from half a century ago?
>
>    - Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use *Response.Write*, because
>    you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
>    - Are you, as a project manager, going to create *Gantt charts*,
>    because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
>    - Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
>    members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
>
> If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your experience...
>
> Here's an example of what it means to be a professional:
>
> There's a concept called Kanban<http://mailer.dzone.com/link.php?M=161459&N=15&L=81&F=H>making headlines these days in some parts of the agile community. I honestly
> and proudly admit that I have *no experience at all *in applying Kanban.
> But that's just a minor inconvenience. *Because I have attained the
> knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for*. And now there are
> some planning issues in our organization for which this Kanban-stuff might
> be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to give it a shot, in a
> controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and proper evaluations
> afterwards. *That's* the way a professional tries to solve a problem.
>
> *Professionals don't match problems with their experiences. They match
> them with their knowledge.
> *Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the knowledge
> in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to verify that
> you are applying the *right *experience.
>
> *Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes Last
> *This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional software
> developer, a professional project manager, or a professional development
> manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and experience will help
> you after that. Professionals need to know about the latest developments and
> techniques. They certainly *don't *bother measuring years of experience.
>
> Are *you *still practicing lobotomies?
>
>
> Until next time,
> Jurgen Appelo
> Visit my blog <http://mailer.dzone.com/link.php?M=161459&N=15&L=18&F=H>
>
>  
>

[marc_polizzi]

As a software dev. I've some difficulties to understand the point of
the message. The most daunting issues I'm facing with is how to solve
a new problem given a set of constraints.

I'm not talking about routine work here ;-)

That's basically because I don't know that 'problem' yet or said
differently I've not the KNOWLEDGE about it yet - so sure KNOWLEDGE
comes first but the next question now is:

HOW TO GET THAT KNOWLEDGE ?


Cheers,
_marc



--- In pinoyjug@..., Alberto Amarga <jhay_are1984@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys
>
>  
>     Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article
to read.
>
>
> Professionalism =
> Knowledge First, Experience Last
> By Jurgen Appelo
> Do you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental
> problems if the doctor tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you
> still trust that doctor when he picks up his tools, and asks you to
prepare
> for a lobotomy?
> Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years
> of experience in carrying out lobotomies?
> I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years
> of experience in a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of
experience
> as a .NET developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager"
or "12

> years of experience as a development manager". It is as if people's
> professional levels need to be measured in years of practice.
> This, of course, is nonsense.
> Professionalism is measured by what you are going
> to do now...
> Are you going to use some discredited technique from half
> a century ago?
> * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use Response.Write,
> because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
> * Are you, as a project manager, going to create Gantt charts,
> because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
> * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
> members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
> If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your
> experience...
> Here's an example of what it means to be a
> professional:
> There's a concept called Kanban making headlines these days in some

parts of the agile community. I
> honestly and proudly admit that I have no experience at all in
> applying Kanban. But that's just a minor inconvenience. Because I have
> attained the knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for. And
> now there are some planning issues in our organization for which this
> Kanban-stuff might be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to
give it
> a shot, in a controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and
proper

> evaluations afterwards. That's the way a professional tries to
> solve a problem.
> Professionals don't match problems with their
> experiences. They match them with their knowledge.
> Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the
> knowledge in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to
> verify that you are applying the right experience.
> Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes
> Last
> This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional
> software developer, a professional project manager, or a professional
> development manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and
> experience will help you after that. Professionals need to know

about the
> latest developments and techniques. They certainly don't bother
> measuring years of experience.
> Are you still practicing lobotomies?
>
> Until next time,
> Jurgen Appelo
> Visit my
> blog
>

[Ramil Sagum-2]

Be careful. It sounds *nice* at first, but this article has a lot of
"hand-waving" going on.

The source of this hand-waving is in that knowledge can be magically
obtained 100%, just like a switch. As if there's no point between 0
knowledge and complete knowledge (and if there's such a thing).

 > I honestly
 > and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
 > But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the
 > knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/.

How much does he know about Kanban? The author just said "i have attained".
Like all knowledge and information about Kanban can be obtained from a
book. (Ah, if knowledge transfer was that easy.)

The author "supports" his statements by insulting us developers :

 >     * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/,
 >       because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
 >     * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,
 >       because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
 >     * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
 >       members, as you did in the 12 years before now?

as if all of us don't read up on new processes, techniques and news
_everytime_.


 > It is as if people's professional
 > levels need to be measured in years of practice.
 > This, of course, is nonsense.

The number of years of experience in *an* indicator of knowledge in some
area. It isn't perfect, and it isn't the only indicator, but it's a lot
better metric than the nonsensical "i have attained knowledge!".


ramil
ramil@...

Alberto Amarga wrote:
 >
 >
 > Hi Guys
 >
 >     Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article to
 > read.
 > *
 > *
 >
 > *Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last*
 > By Jurgen Appelo
 >
 > Do you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental problems if the doctor
 > tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you still trust that
 > doctor when he picks up his tools, and asks you to prepare for a lobotomy?
 >
 > Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years of experience in
 > carrying out lobotomies?
 >
 > I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years of experience
 > in a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of experience as a .NET
 > developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager" or "12 years of
 > experience as a development manager". It is as if people's professional
 > levels need to be measured in years of practice.
 >
 > This, of course, is nonsense.
 >
 > *Professionalism is measured by what you are going to do /now.../*
 >
 > Are you going to use some discredited technique from half a century ago?
 >
 >     * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/,
 >       because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
 >     * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,
 >       because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
 >     * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
 >       members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
 >
 > If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your experience...
 >
 > Here's an example of what it means to be a professional:
 >
 > There's a concept called Kanban
 > <http://mailer.dzone.com/link.php?M=161459&N=15&L=81&F=H> making
 > headlines these days in some parts of the agile community. I honestly
 > and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
 > But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the
 > knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/. And now there are
 > some planning issues in our organization for which this Kanban-stuff
 > might be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to give it a shot,
 > in a controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and proper
 > evaluations afterwards. /That's/ the way a professional tries to solve a
 > problem.
 >
 > *Professionals don't match problems with their experiences. They match
 > them with their knowledge.
 > *Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the
 > knowledge in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to
 > verify that you are applying the /right /experience.
 >
 > *Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes Last
 > *This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional software
 > developer, a professional project manager, or a professional development
 > manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and experience will
 > help you after that. Professionals need to know about the latest
 > developments and techniques. They certainly /don't /bother measuring
 > years of experience.
 >
 > Are /you /still practicing lobotomies?
 >
 >
 > Until next time,
 > Jurgen Appelo
 > Visit my blog <http://mailer.dzone.com/link.php?M=161459&N=15&L=18&F=H>
 >

[Jay Dominic Sto. Tomas]

It's a nice article.  But like what Ramil said, experience is still a better
indicator than merely stating "I know this and that"...  At the end of the
day, if you're an applicant who claims they know stuff but can't back it up
with a previous project (regardless of size), you're liable to have a heck
of a time convincing the person interviewing you of your alleged skill or
knowledge.

Anyway, I honestly don't know anything about Kanban.  But I can always look
it up in Google though and get a good idea of what it is and see if it will
be of any use to my work or the business i'm supporting.  Using my
previous "experiences", I can gauge if it will enhance or improve how I work
or the quality of my output because I will have something to base its
benefits against.  It would be harder if I didn't have any experience at
all...

Another thing, let's not confuse "professionalism" with knowledge or
experience.  Professionalism should evoke thoughts of "how" you work and not
what you know technically.  Are you always on time for meetings?  Do you
know how to handle difficult situations encountered in a project?  That's
professionalism if you ask me...

Ok, back to work for me...  :D

Jay


On 7/25/08, Ramil Sagum <ramil@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Be careful. It sounds *nice* at first, but this article has a lot of
> "hand-waving" going on.
>
> The source of this hand-waving is in that knowledge can be magically
> obtained 100%, just like a switch. As if there's no point between 0
> knowledge and complete knowledge (and if there's such a thing).
>
> > I honestly
> > and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
> > But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the
> > knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/.
>
> How much does he know about Kanban? The author just said "i have attained".
> Like all knowledge and information about Kanban can be obtained from a
> book. (Ah, if knowledge transfer was that easy.)
>
> The author "supports" his statements by insulting us developers :
>
> > * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/,
> > because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
> > * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,
> > because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
> > * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
> > members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
>
> as if all of us don't read up on new processes, techniques and news
> _everytime_.
>
> > It is as if people's professional
> > levels need to be measured in years of practice.
> > This, of course, is nonsense.
>
> The number of years of experience in *an* indicator of knowledge in some
> area. It isn't perfect, and it isn't the only indicator, but it's a lot
> better metric than the nonsensical "i have attained knowledge!".
>
> ramil
> ramil@... <ramil%40sagum.net>
>
> Alberto Amarga wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Guys
> >
> > Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article to
> > read.
> > *
> > *
> >
> > *Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last*
> > By Jurgen Appelo
> >
> > Do you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental problems if the doctor
> > tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you still trust that
> > doctor when he picks up his tools, and asks you to prepare for a
> lobotomy?
> >
> > Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years of experience in
> > carrying out lobotomies?
> >
> > I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years of experience
> > in a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of experience as a .NET
> > developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager" or "12 years of
> > experience as a development manager". It is as if people's professional
> > levels need to be measured in years of practice.
> >
> > This, of course, is nonsense.
> >
> > *Professionalism is measured by what you are going to do /now.../*
> >
> > Are you going to use some discredited technique from half a century ago?
> >
> > * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/,
> > because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
> > * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,
> > because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
> > * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
> > members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
> >
> > If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your experience...
> >
> > Here's an example of what it means to be a professional:
> >
> > There's a concept called Kanban
> > <http://mailer.dzone.com/link.php?M=161459&N=15&L=81&F=H> making
> > headlines these days in some parts of the agile community. I honestly
> > and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
> > But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the
> > knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/. And now there are
> > some planning issues in our organization for which this Kanban-stuff
> > might be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to give it a shot,
> > in a controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and proper
> > evaluations afterwards. /That's/ the way a professional tries to solve a
> > problem.
> >
> > *Professionals don't match problems with their experiences. They match
> > them with their knowledge.
> > *Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the
> > knowledge in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to
> > verify that you are applying the /right /experience.
> >
> > *Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes Last
> > *This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional software
> > developer, a professional project manager, or a professional development
> > manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and experience will
> > help you after that. Professionals need to know about the latest
> > developments and techniques. They certainly /don't /bother measuring
> > years of experience.
> >
> > Are /you /still practicing lobotomies?
> >
> >
> > Until next time,
> > Jurgen Appelo
> > Visit my blog <http://mailer.dzone.com/link.php?M=161459&N=15&L=18&F=H>
> >
>
>
>

[brian cuesta]

well said...for my opinion the author think of experience as knowledge that you can learn by just reading(conceptual/theory level), if your fall for maintaining a project for 5 or more years with the same level of knowledge/application then the article is for you :), knowledge is pointless w/out application

--- On Fri, 7/25/08, Jay Dominic <jaydominic@...> wrote:
From: Jay Dominic <jaydominic@...>
Subject: Re: [pinoyjug] Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last
To: pinoyjug@...
Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 12:19 PM










   
            It's a nice article.  But like what Ramil said, experience is still a better indicator than merely stating "I know this and that"...  At the end of the day, if you're an applicant who claims they know stuff but can't back it up with a previous project (regardless of size), you're liable to have a heck of a time convincing the person interviewing you of your alleged skill or knowledge.

 
Anyway, I honestly don't know anything about Kanban.  But I can always look it up in Google though and get a good idea of what it is and see if it will be of any use to my work or the business i'm supporting.  Using my previous "experiences", I can gauge if it will enhance or improve how I work or the quality of my output because I will have something to base its benefits against.  It would be harder if I didn't have any experience at all...

 
Another thing, let's not confuse "professionalism" with knowledge or experience.  Professionalism should evoke thoughts of "how" you work and not what you know technically.  Are you always on time for meetings?  Do you know how to handle difficult situations encountered in a project?  That's professionalism if you ask me...

 
Ok, back to work for me...  :D
 
Jay

 
On 7/25/08, Ramil Sagum <ramil@sagum. net> wrote:







Be careful. It sounds *nice* at first, but this article has a lot of
"hand-waving" going on.

The source of this hand-waving is in that knowledge can be magically
obtained 100%, just like a switch. As if there's no point between 0

knowledge and complete knowledge (and if there's such a thing).

> I honestly
> and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
> But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the

> knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/.

How much does he know about Kanban? The author just said "i have attained".
Like all knowledge and information about Kanban can be obtained from a

book. (Ah, if knowledge transfer was that easy.)

The author "supports" his statements by insulting us developers :

> * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/ ,

> because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
> * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,
> because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
> * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team

> members, as you did in the 12 years before now?

as if all of us don't read up on new processes, techniques and news
_everytime_.

> It is as if people's professional

> levels need to be measured in years of practice.
> This, of course, is nonsense.

The number of years of experience in *an* indicator of knowledge in some
area. It isn't perfect, and it isn't the only indicator, but it's a lot

better metric than the nonsensical "i have attained knowledge!".

ramil
ramil@sagum. net


Alberto Amarga wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article to
> read.
> *

> *
>
> *Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last*
> By Jurgen Appelo
>
> Do you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental problems if the doctor
> tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you still trust that

> doctor when he picks up his tools, and asks you to prepare for a lobotomy?
>
> Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years of experience in
> carrying out lobotomies?
>
> I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years of experience

> in a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of experience as a .NET
> developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager" or "12 years of
> experience as a development manager". It is as if people's professional

> levels need to be measured in years of practice.
>
> This, of course, is nonsense.
>
> *Professionalism is measured by what you are going to do /now.../*
>
> Are you going to use some discredited technique from half a century ago?

>
> * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/ ,
> because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
> * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,

> because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
> * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
> members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
>
> If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your experience.. .

>
> Here's an example of what it means to be a professional:
>
> There's a concept called Kanban
> <http://mailer. dzone.com/ link.php? M=161459&N=15&L=81&F=H> making

> headlines these days in some parts of the agile community. I honestly
> and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
> But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the

> knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/. And now there are
> some planning issues in our organization for which this Kanban-stuff
> might be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to give it a shot,

> in a controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and proper
> evaluations afterwards. /That's/ the way a professional tries to solve a
> problem.
>
> *Professionals don't match problems with their experiences. They match

> them with their knowledge.
> *Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the
> knowledge in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to
> verify that you are applying the /right /experience.

>
> *Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes Last
> *This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional software
> developer, a professional project manager, or a professional development

> manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and experience will
> help you after that. Professionals need to know about the latest
> developments and techniques. They certainly /don't /bother measuring

> years of experience.
>
> Are /you /still practicing lobotomies?
>
>
> Until next time,
> Jurgen Appelo
> Visit my blog <http://mailer. dzone.com/ link.php? M=161459&N=15&L=18&F=H>

>

 


     

   
   
       
         
       
       








       


       
       


     

[Orlando Andico]

There's a huge difference between knowing something and applying it in
the real world.

I should know. No amount of training and building-of-toy-projects in
the acquisition of knowledge will prepare you for the undocumented
gotchas of a real-world implementation.



--
Orlando Andico
+63.2.976.8659 | +63.920.903.0335

[Kirt Kyamko]

Hi to all juggers,


I agree with these last two posts and honestly believed that
the author does not know what he’s talking about regarding professionalism
is ("how" you work and not what you know technically). He just
equates Knowledge just attained to the Wisdom attained by a person. If you are
going to ask me  "plainly" which person I'll going to trust with
my project is it  with 1-2 yrs experience of Java/.Net developer or with 4-5 yrs experiences? Of course I'll go with the more experiences in handling the
project. Now this is still quite debatable as you can see. The one with  the less experience may have implemented it
to a quite a number of projects and compared to the more experienced one that
only applies it to a single or less projects.  There are still many arguments here but the bottom line is:
- have you “just acquired” your knowledge such as in a
tutorial/article and have never applied it in a “real” project?
-  Are you saying that
with your newly acquired knowledge have already tested on fire?
- Are you saying that with your acquired knowledge that you
can now beat your master who has the wisdom of ages and knows the ups and down
of any project?
I can only agree with author and to others that support him
that it is necessary to acquire knowledge of the current times because without
it you’ll be outdated and be obsolete. As my previous mentor told me before  that many young developers who knows a lot of
new technologies does not even know how to explain the ServletContext and
ServletConfig.  When you look at new
knowledge there can be a lot of advantages as well as disadvantages. But not
until it is proven yet (like with Laser Eye Surgery back few years ago) then we
would never know.  Again not until the
new knowledge is well conceived (just like Napoleon change the rules of the
game in warfare) then perhaps the outcome may not be as positive as it can be.

Still I believed that a student can beat the master someday if proper training and experiences have applied...

Regards,

<=GG=>




----- Original Message ----
From: brian cuesta <annixtaz07@...>
To: pinoyjug@...
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2008 3:54:11 PM
Subject: Re: [pinoyjug] Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last


well said...for my opinion the author think of experience as knowledge that you can learn by just reading(conceptual/ theory level), if your fall for maintaining a project for 5 or more years with the same level of knowledge/applicati on then the article is for you :), knowledge is pointless w/out application

--- On Fri, 7/25/08, Jay Dominic <jaydominic@gmail. com> wrote:

From: Jay Dominic <jaydominic@gmail. com>
Subject: Re: [pinoyjug] Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last
To: pinoyjug@yahoogroup s.com
Date: Friday, July 25, 2008, 12:19 PM


It's a nice article.  But like what Ramil said, experience is still a better indicator than merely stating "I know this and that"...  At the end of the day, if you're an applicant who claims they know stuff but can't back it up with a previous project (regardless of size), you're liable to have a heck of a time convincing the person interviewing you of your alleged skill or knowledge.
 
Anyway, I honestly don't know anything about Kanban.  But I can always look it up in Google though and get a good idea of what it is and see if it will be of any use to my work or the business i'm supporting.  Using my previous "experiences" , I can gauge if it will enhance or improve how I work or the quality of my output because I will have something to base its benefits against.  It would be harder if I didn't have any experience at all...
 
Another thing, let's not confuse "professionalism" with knowledge or experience.  Professionalism should evoke thoughts of "how" you work and not what you know technically.  Are you always on time for meetings?  Do you know how to handle difficult situations encountered in a project?  That's professionalism if you ask me...
 
Ok, back to work for me...  :D
 
Jay

 
On 7/25/08, Ramil Sagum <ramil@sagum. net> wrote:


Be careful. It sounds *nice* at first, but this article has a lot of
"hand-waving" going on.

The source of this hand-waving is in that knowledge can be magically
obtained 100%, just like a switch. As if there's no point between 0
knowledge and complete knowledge (and if there's such a thing).

> I honestly
> and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
> But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the
> knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/.

How much does he know about Kanban? The author just said "i have attained".
Like all knowledge and information about Kanban can be obtained from a
book. (Ah, if knowledge transfer was that easy.)

The author "supports" his statements by insulting us developers :

> * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/ ,
> because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
> * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,
> because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
> * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
> members, as you did in the 12 years before now?

as if all of us don't read up on new processes, techniques and news
_everytime_.

> It is as if people's professional
> levels need to be measured in years of practice.
> This, of course, is nonsense.

The number of years of experience in *an* indicator of knowledge in some
area. It isn't perfect, and it isn't the only indicator, but it's a lot
better metric than the nonsensical "i have attained knowledge!".

ramil
ramil@sagum. net


Alberto Amarga wrote:

>
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Just got an article in my subscription today. Its a nice article to
> read.
> *
> *
>
> *Professionalism = Knowledge First, Experience Last*
> By Jurgen Appelo
>
> Do you trust a doctor with diagnosing your mental problems if the doctor
> tells you he's got 20 years of experience? Do you still trust that
> doctor when he picks up his tools, and asks you to prepare for a lobotomy?
>
> Would you still be impressed if the doctor had 20 years of experience in
> carrying out lobotomies?
>
> I am always skeptic when people tell me they have X years of experience
> in a certain field or discipline, like "5 years of experience as a .NET
> developer", "8 years of experience as a project manager" or "12 years of
> experience as a development manager". It is as if people's professional
> levels need to be measured in years of practice.
>
> This, of course, is nonsense.
>
> *Professionalism is measured by what you are going to do /now.../*
>
> Are you going to use some discredited technique from half a century ago?
>
> * Are you, as a .NET developer, going to use /Response.Write/ ,
> because you've got 5 years of experience doing exactly that?
> * Are you, as a project manager, going to create /Gantt charts/,
> because that's what you've been doing for 8 years?
> * Are you, as a development manager, going to micro-manage your team
> members, as you did in the 12 years before now?
>
> If so, allow me to illustrate the value of your experience.. .
>
> Here's an example of what it means to be a professional:
>
> There's a concept called Kanban
> <http://mailer. dzone.com/ link.php? M=161459&N=15&L=81&F=H> making
> headlines these days in some parts of the agile community. I honestly
> and proudly admit that I have /no experience at all /in applying Kanban.
> But that's just a minor inconvenience. /Because I have attained the
> knowledge of what it is and what it can be good for/. And now there are
> some planning issues in our organization for which this Kanban-stuff
> might be the perfect solution. I'm sure we're going to give it a shot,
> in a controlled setting, with time allocated for a pilot and proper
> evaluations afterwards. /That's/ the way a professional tries to solve a
> problem.
>
> *Professionals don't match problems with their experiences. They match
> them with their knowledge.
> *Sure, experience is useful. But only when you already have the
> knowledge in place. Experience has no value when there's no knowledge to
> verify that you are applying the /right /experience.
>
> *Knowledge Comes First, Experience Comes Last
> *This is my message to anyone who wants to be a professional software
> developer, a professional project manager, or a professional development
> manager. You must gain and apply knowledge first, and experience will
> help you after that. Professionals need to know about the latest
> developments and techniques. They certainly /don't /bother measuring
> years of experience.
>
> Are /you /still practicing lobotomies?
>
>
> Until next time,
> Jurgen Appelo
> Visit my blog <http://mailer. dzone.com/ link.php? M=161459&N=15&L=18&F=H>
>

 
 
   


     

[germaine belmonte]

Baka naman kasi doctor turned programmer yung author na yan. Pag doctor ka,
"RuntimeErrors" are BAD. Lolz!  "Learning from mistakes" is BAD. I think
inde masyado maganda yung analogy nya.

Also, as mentioned by most of those who generally disagree with this
article, there are other conceptual skills that you just can't read up on.
Skills like conflict management (between people), how to boost morale, how
to approach a problem, office politics, making tough decisions, etc.

I think that interviews should focus on both aspects (technical and
conceptual). Maybe certain job requirements require 3 yrs experience para
inde na kailangan turuan yung developer ng certain practices.  (Generally)
Malaking difference yung code and practices ng fresh grad at 3 yrs exp, as
we all know naman.

Its a balance. You wouldn't want to put a seasoned developer with 10yrs
experience in a developer position that a fresh grad could fill.

In conclusion, I generally disagree with what the author is saying in the
article.