Problem with ColorForth 2.0

[nakedtruth]

First off let me say that overall I like CF 2.0.  This is the first
official release that runs under Windows (and native) and the
first released with documentation.  

That said I'm having a serious problem trying to recreate some of
the programs I had written for the previous versions.  Namely anything
using "UNPACK" doesn't work for me such as the "hello world"
tutorials I did a while back.

http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforth.html
http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforthver-20.html
http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforthversion-30.html

Whenever I try any of these programs I get this in the console
window.

Win32 API Error: 00000578 10006595 10003FE2 10013400 10004D90

I don't currently have a machine where I can run native colorforth
so I don't have a way to test if this is just a problem with
Windows.  If anyone could test this out I'd appreciate it.

Regards,

John M. Drake


     

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[Ray St. Marie]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 11:54 AM, John Drake <jmdrake_98@...> wrote:
> First off let me say that overall I like CF 2.0.  This is the first
> official release that runs under Windows (and native) and the
> first released with documentation.
>

I like it too. The documentation doesn't exactly match the software
and this is my motivation for the colorForth Community site, which
will appear in the very near future at Charles Childers ForthWorks
site.


> That said I'm having a serious problem trying to recreate some of
> the programs I had written for the previous versions.  Namely anything
> using "UNPACK" doesn't work for me such as the "hello world"
> tutorials I did a while back.

I can not believe that I've never shared this with you, Like i totally
forgot about it while you were going over your code at your blog,
but...

Many years ago, Tim Neitz and I were working on his Multi-Tasking
colorForth. He worked and I tested. Around the same time, Mark
Slicker, Tim and I would talk regularly in IRC Freenode #c4th chats.
We were talking about the need for colorForth written in colorforth
and both Tim and Mark came up with a total of 4 versions of the word
'accept'. I tested these as well.

Also about that time, Howard Oakford had finished his excellent
colorForth/colorBlind editor. Mark had the beginings of an editor in
early versions (still there, actually in blocks 70 and 72 IIRC) of
Roman's Windows version.

Starting with some code I was using to keep versions of blocks as I
created them, I added Marks code to that, and then ripped out just the
text rendering routines and the cursor movement routines from Howards
editor.

I used this to test that I could faithfully and completely render
displays exactly as they would appear in a color editor. This was for
Tim's multi-tasker, so that an editor could be started in another
window...  he had like 6 virtual consols.
Haveing the main editor runing in one, I thought it would be cool to
use part of an editor in consol as a block viewer, and then in another
console a modified editor, for what ever reason a modification might
need to be created.

I would test their 'accept's in these consols as well. stringing
together an accept with what I eventually called the Multi-viewer
created a faithful colorforth editor in colorforth source. Howards was
the example and is excellent and from it,  mine is bare bones and a
tad lighter.

The code is on blocks 70-72( not 71, that's were I moved Mark's
begining to the Keyboard) and 74 of the image at the link below.  It
always has done what you were asking your code to do. Adding accept
and it's an editor, otherwise it can view code in blocks exactly like
the editor rendering all words faithfully.

Separate out the cursor code and the keyboard and the blk variable
containment code and you have something that works like you are asking
your code to do.

http://www.dnd.utwente.nl/~tim/colorforth/Raystm2/mv050314.html

>
> http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforth.html
> http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforthver-20.html
> http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforthversion-30.html
>
>
> Regards,
>
> John M. Drake
>

I'll try your unpack soon as I get a chance, but I'm busy just now
with the new website coming up.

Fun by numbers, colors and words,
Ray


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[Ray St. Marie]

I just re-read that code and now realize there is a tiny update. Where
the variable 'blk' is rendered to the screen there is also a
definition that renders the cursors current position as well. These
are displayed just above the stack. like

70    <-- blk
124   <--word count/cursor postion
0      <-- stack.


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[Ray St. Marie]

On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 11:54 AM, John Drake <jmdrake_98@...> wrote:
> First off let me say that overall I like CF 2.0.  This is the


[clever snip]

> tutorials I did a while back.
>
> http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforth.html
> http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforthver-20.html
> http://primarycolorforth.blogspot.com/2006/12/typing-colorforthversion-30.html

>
> Whenever I try any of these programs I get this in the console
> window.
>
> Win32 API Error: 00000578 10006595 10003FE2 10013400 10004D90
>

Just reading the code.

You only need to strip the tag once per word and not for every letter
you emit. ;-)

Wink Wink

> Regards,
>
> John M. Drake
>

Rayber outber

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[Ray St. Marie]

and in fun...

As much as you will 'hate' to admit it, the version you call the
'haters' code... ahem cough cough,.. MY CODE :-) took all of 3 minutes
to look up the letters, which I stack on the stack as I found them
with the code

ic @

every time I landed on a letter, then just put them in the order that
that were on the stack, which in essence reversed the letters
properly, set up a for loop to render them... Worked the first time,
always worked since then... will most likely be the most efficient
version of the code for all strings under X-too-many-to-bother-with.
:)

Ray

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[nakedtruth]

Hello Ray,

First thanks for the helpful pointers.  That's
some interesting code on the editor.

As for the "haters" part, perhaps I was unclear.
I was not talking about YOU.  If my blog gave
that impression I need to clean it up.  But certain
people at c.l.f. that choose to use code like
yours as "proof" that programming in ColorForth
is like "programming with boxing gloves on".

Yes you can look up the actual emit codes
if that's what you want to do.  It's also possible
to do that with ANS forth or C for that matter.
But if the only way ANS forth programmers
could do "Hello world" was to look up codes
in an ASCII table and enter them in reverse
order to the editor then C programmers would
use that as a counter example to ANS Forth
too.

As for it "only" taking 3 minutes to look up
the codes....I can type 59 words per minute.
(Admittedly not that fast using Dvorak), so
relatively speaking that's not that fast.  It
doesn't matter if your program doesn't require
much text output.  But say if someone
wanted to recreate Zork in ColorForth?
It all depends on if your "hello world" program
is an exercise to itself or a building block
for something else you want to do.

Regards,

John M. Drake

----- Original Message ----
From: Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...>
To: colorforth@...
Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 4:12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [colorforth] Problem with ColorForth 2.0

and in fun...

As much as you will 'hate' to admit it, the version you call the
'haters' code... ahem cough cough,.. MY CODE :-) took all of 3 minutes
to look up the letters, which I stack on the stack as I found them
with the code

ic @

every time I landed on a letter, then just put them in the order that
that were on the stack, which in essence reversed the letters
properly, set up a for loop to render them... Worked the first time,
always worked since then... will most likely be the most efficient
version of the code for all strings under X-too-many-to-bother-with.
:)

Ray

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[Ray St. Marie]

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 5:31 AM, John Drake <jmdrake_98@...> wrote:
> Hello Ray,
>
> First thanks for the helpful pointers.  That's
> some interesting code on the editor.

Your welcome. I think I may have finely reached the point of forgettin
more about colorforth than I know. This is the reason for the new
wiki, comming soon.

> As for the "haters" part, perhaps I was unclear.
> I was not talking about YOU.

I know. That last message WAS supposed to be taken in jest, something
I continually fail at in text. I don't know when to quit.Sorry if I
came off wrong as well. :-)

> If my blog gave
> that impression I need to clean it up.  But certain
> people at c.l.f. that choose to use code like
> yours as "proof" that programming in ColorForth
> is like "programming with boxing gloves on".

I suppose colorForth programming would be just like as you said. This
is going to be true for all new users, I suppose. Lets fix that. :-)

> Yes you can look up the actual emit codes
> if that's what you want to do.  It's also possible
> to do that with ANS forth or C for that matter.
> But if the only way ANS forth programmers
> could do "Hello world" was to look up codes
> in an ASCII table and enter them in reverse
> order to the editor then C programmers would
> use that as a counter example to ANS Forth
> too.

> As for it "only" taking 3 minutes to look up
> the codes....I can type 59 words per minute.
> (Admittedly not that fast using Dvorak), so
> relatively speaking that's not that fast.  It
> doesn't matter if your program doesn't require
> much text output.  But say if someone
> wanted to recreate Zork in ColorForth?
> It all depends on if your "hello world" program
> is an exercise to itself or a building block
> for something else you want to do.

What it was supposed to speak to is using the proper solution for the
problem at hand and not codeing a general solution "which never comes
up." <per C.Moore> Another point that I have failed to make over the
years about this very string of code.

The text handling routines that you came up with are the very things
that Howerd, Mark, Tim, myself and I'm sure others, have coded in the
past. This means there seems to be at the most factorized level, a
congruent way to deal with text presentation. This makes me feel good.
You are to be praised for finding it yourself, just like the others.
This IS ROCKET SCIENCE after all. :-)



> Regards,
>
> John M. Drake

Your friend in living COLOR
Ray

PS. it didn't even take three minutes :-)
I was looking at Chucks packed letter codes at his site, which were
not even correct  for some letters.  But I did include the process I
use when I don't have that infront of me in the post, for those who
might like to use the very "technique" < is an overboard word>.





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[Ray St. Marie]

pps: I coded it directly into that old wiki people found it in with
out testing. I knew I would work the first time. :-)

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[Ray St. Marie]

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
> pps: I coded it directly into that old wiki people found it in with
> out testing. I knew I would work the first time. :-)
>

ppps: If newbies can't appreciate the subtle nuances of colorForth and
why my answer is better the other answer, then they will never
understand colorforth.

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[Ray St. Marie]

pppps: We don't need to bring colorForth to other people. They need to
come to it. With an open mind and a desire to practice ( lol )
Chvorak.

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[Ray St. Marie]

and finally,

ppppps:
You know that ChipChuck could say the very same thing to me. His
soulution being to just type the Hello, World in a block and then
calling the block to display in the editor.

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[Ray St. Marie]

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:30 PM, Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...> wrote:
> pps: I coded it directly into that old wiki people found it in with
> out testing. I knew I would work the first time. :-)
>
I was at work, goofin' off as usual when I found the wiki
with all of those HelloWorld programs. I edited the code
directly into the wiki and then, after when I got home,
coded it from the wikipage into ColorForth for Windows.

At work, since I didn't have colorForth there ( yet :-) ) I used
Chucks page http://colorforth.com/chars.html , and the fact that the
caps are letter+48.

Then I got home I found a spelling error that I don't recall now, but
one fo the letters was coded incorrectly, So, I did go back into the
wiki site and recode it, but this time in hex. Don't know why hex.
But, even though it printed the wrong letters, it did work the very
first time I ran the code.

I now believe that my code is in no position to be considered for the
HELLO WORLD challenge, as Chuck's is the most elegant and the General
Solution exhists.
If one can get the idea that say, codeing a display for something that
changes on the screen, but the screen also has titles and lables, then
Chucks could be the page title, but it would take the General Solution
to fill in the rest where it would be displayed.

Your both right! and I'm wrong! :-)


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[nakedtruth]

----- Original Message ----
From: Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...>

> Your welcome. I think I may have finely reached the point of forgettin
> more about colorforth than I know. This is the reason for the new
> wiki, comming soon.

Yes.  It's a good idea.

> I know. That last message WAS supposed to be taken in jest, something
> I continually fail at in text. I don't know when to quit.Sorry if I
> came off wrong as well. :-)

Ok.  Sorry for missing the humor!  :)  I did clean that blog post up
though.  I don't want anyone mistaking what I was saying.  Heck
I may even take the "haters" comment out.  I no longer care what
folks on a certain newsgroup think.

>> As for it "only" taking 3 minutes to look up
>> the codes....I can type 59 words per minute.
>> (Admittedly not that fast using Dvorak), so
>> relatively speaking that's not that fast.  It
>> doesn't matter if your program doesn't require
>> much text output.  But say if someone
>> wanted to recreate Zork in ColorForth?
>> It all depends on if your "hello world" program
>> is an exercise to itself or a building block
>> for something else you want to do.

> What it was supposed to speak to is using the proper solution for the
> problem at hand and not codeing a general solution "which never comes
> up." <per C.Moore> Another point that I have failed to make over the
> years about this very string of code.

And how do you know I'm not planning on writing a ColorForth
Zork clone? ;)  Seriously remember when I wrote this I had started
on my project of translating the "Starting Forth" examples to
ColorForth.  I realize I haven't finished that yet.  (Got sidetracked
by various other projects) but if/when I do continue I will need
to do text output at various stages and frankly looking up codes
and putting them on the stack in reverse order doesn't do it for
me.  The "buzzword" phrase generator would be particularly
painful.

ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Applications/ANS/strtfrth.txt

Besides, Chucks way to do "Hello World" was to just
enter it onto an edit screen.  ;)

I should add that the "look up codes" example was helpful in
understanding how "show" works.

> The text handling routines that you came up with are the very things
> that Howerd, Mark, Tim, myself and I'm sure others, have coded in the
> past. This means there seems to be at the most factorized level, a
> congruent way to deal with text presentation. This makes me feel good.
> You are to be praised for finding it yourself, just like the others.
> This IS ROCKET SCIENCE after all. :-)

Yes you are correct.  I ran across the work you guys did after
trudging through this myself.  Again I support Wiki's, blogs
and whatever we can do to keep folks from redoing what's
already been done.

>> Regards,
>>
>> John M. Drake

> Your friend in living COLOR
> Ray

> PS. it didn't even take three minutes :-)
> I was looking at Chucks packed letter codes at his site, which were
> not even correct  for some letters.  But I did include the process I
> use when I don't have that infront of me in the post, for those who
> might like to use the very "technique" < is an overboard word>.

Is there a link to the corrected code list?

Regards,

John M. Drake



     

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[Ray St. Marie]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:00 AM, John Drake <jmdrake_98@...> wrote:
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ray St. Marie <ray.stmarie@...>
>
-> I may even take the "haters" comment out.  I no longer care what
> folks on a certain newsgroup think.
>

I agree. Not about the "haters" comment. That just shows you have
personality, imnsho.

I've stopped getting c.l.f and only browse it on occassion, looking
for specific topics or people I can respect.

>>>  But say if someone
>>> wanted to recreate Zork in ColorForth?
>>> It all depends on if your "hello world" program
>>> is an exercise to itself or a building block
>>> for something else you want to do.

I believe or was under the impression that the Hello, World!
"challenge" was an exercise all to itself, hence my position in the
"argument".

Your point is well taken.

>
> And how do you know I'm not planning on writing a ColorForth
> Zork clone? ;)  Seriously remember when I wrote this I had started
> on my project of translating the "Starting Forth" examples to
> ColorForth.  I realize I haven't finished that yet.  (Got sidetracked
> by various other projects) but if/when I do continue I will need
> to do text output at various stages and frankly looking up codes
> and putting them on the stack in reverse order doesn't do it for
> me.  The "buzzword" phrase generator would be particularly
> painful.
>
> ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Applications/ANS/strtfrth.txt

Okay, now this I had never seen before. Thank you for brining it to my
attention. This will make porting the code over to colorForth a bit
easier.

>
> Besides, Chucks way to do "Hello World" was to just
> enter it onto an edit screen.  ;)

I don't think that makes his answer wrong. But as I halfway said in
another post, elegant as it may be, it is very limiting for text and
format through out the page. One would still need those text
conversion routines and "x @ (modify) y @ (modify) AT" routines to get
text placed anywhere else on the screen independant of RED word
carriage returns.

One must also realize that Chuck's solution only works with-in the
confines of the editor, while the routines can be used inside and out.

But that also leads to ...

How neat would it be to have such an in-editor proggy working in a
block, say, adjacent to the work you are currently doing. Move over to
that block for what ever reason, to see current output. Move back to
the program you are creating and continue -- all inside the editor!?!

>
> I should add that the "look up codes" example was helpful in
> understanding how "show" works.
>

I hope one day you will explain that at the wiki. :-) ( JAPeters style
smile as well, signifying pleasure at the thought of you explaining
your experiance to the rest of us. )


> ... I support Wiki's, blogs
> and whatever we can do to keep folks from redoing what's
> already been done.
>

ditto... can't say it any better then that.

>
> Is there a link to the corrected code list?
>
> Regards,
> John M. Drake

If memory holds, and I'm not sure that it does, I had found the fact
that some of the letters were out of order from Chuck's Huffman page
either here in the mailing list, or I can't be sure. :-(   As far as I
know, there is no updated list.

You will find it at the wiki!  :-)

Thanks, John. I do so enjoy these conversations with you and I hope
you also register and become an author of the colorForth Community
blog and wiki. I realize you have your own blog, and I hope you link
it in often.

And that goes for the rest of you, too! :-)

Peace out,
Ray


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