Pricing for an EV project

[Chapco]

Hello Folks,

My wife gave me the ok to dive into the endeavor of creating a EV car.
I want to get some impressions of what I am looking at and to know if the ideas are good or not for a first time EV conversion. Considering I have pretty good mechanical abilities, some past electrical experience and connections with the tools needed for just about everything.

I have a VW Type 3 Squareback and wanting to convert to a short range car with the capability to drive on the expressway about 10 miles at 45 / 55 mph.
Just an around town car. (I live in a pretty flat location with about a 15 mile range from one end of town to the other.

I have looked at the wilderness EV 144 volt DC conversion kit:
Price is $5,495 +shipping.
This pretty much has everything but the batteries.

The other option I am looking at is the Cloud EV:
Conversion Kit 108-120V Warp 9" Impulse Motor & Curtis Controller
Price is $3,699.00 + Shipping
With this one I would need to source the adapter plate, shaft coupler, and charging systems for both the 120v and 12v and Batteries.

I priced some of the parts out separately and really the numbers would come out pretty similar.
Would I be better off with using a "kit" that has been pretty much tested rather than building up my own, or is there some specs I can use from other vehicles that might be a better option.
Or thoughts on comparisons with the Warp motor compared to the D&D? (not worried about low end torque so much at this point, but would like to go up longer hills from time to time as there is a ski resort within 20 miles of my home)

Any suggestions on batteries?  I wanted to start out with basic and eventually evolve the system to a better driving range or battery life. (hopefully when prices go down in the next decade).

Thanks,
Brent

[Bob Bath]

Hi Brent, and welcome to the LIST.
Sounds like you're set on a less expensive one.  In
our family, 40 mi. range and being able to take 4, or
music equipment was a must, as was passing a crash
test.
  That may (or not) help you choose RE: kits.
Sincerely,

--- Chapco <brentc@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Folks,
>
> My wife gave me the ok to dive into the endeavor of
> creating a EV car.
> I want to get some impressions of what I am looking
> at and to know if the
> ideas are good or not for a first time EV
> conversion. Considering I have
> pretty good mechanical abilities, some past
> electrical experience and
> connections with the tools needed for just about
> everything.
>
> I have a VW Type 3 Squareback and wanting to convert
> to a short range car
> with the capability to drive on the expressway about
> 10 miles at 45 / 55
> mph.
> Just an around town car. (I live in a pretty flat
> location with about a 15
> mile range from one end of town to the other.
>
> I have looked at the wilderness EV 144 volt DC
> conversion kit:
> Price is $5,495 +shipping.
> This pretty much has everything but the batteries.
>
> The other option I am looking at is the Cloud EV:
> Conversion Kit 108-120V Warp 9" Impulse Motor &
> Curtis Controller
> Price is $3,699.00 + Shipping
> With this one I would need to source the adapter
> plate, shaft coupler, and
> charging systems for both the 120v and 12v and
> Batteries.
>
> I priced some of the parts out separately and really
> the numbers would come
> out pretty similar.
> Would I be better off with using a "kit" that has
> been pretty much tested
> rather than building up my own, or is there some
> specs I can use from other
> vehicles that might be a better option.
> Or thoughts on comparisons with the Warp motor
> compared to the D&D? (not
> worried about low end torque so much at this point,
> but would like to go up
> longer hills from time to time as there is a ski
> resort within 20 miles of
> my home)
>
> Any suggestions on batteries?  I wanted to start out
> with basic and
> eventually evolve the system to a better driving
> range or battery life.
> (hopefully when prices go down in the next decade).
>
> Thanks,
> Brent
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>

http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-an-EV-project-tp17027249p17027249.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


Thinking about converting a gen. 5 ('92-95) Honda Civic?  My $23 "CivicWithACord" DVD (57 mins.) shows ins and outs you'll encounter, featuring a sedan; a del Sol, and a hatchback, each running 144V/18 batteries.  It focuses on component/instrumentation/battery placement and other considerations.  For more info,   http://home.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
                          ____
                       __/__|__\__
             =D-------/   - -     \
                      'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?


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[Randy Eckert]

Oh man your killing me! I looked for a square back but came up with nothing,
I used to have a 69, loved it, but any how, good luck keep us posted.
lucky dog
what are you going to do with the motor? and cowling?
I would be interested. is it still FI?

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Chapco <brentc@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Folks,
>
> My wife gave me the ok to dive into the endeavor of creating a EV car.
> I want to get some impressions of what I am looking at and to know if the
> ideas are good or not for a first time EV conversion. Considering I have
> pretty good mechanical abilities, some past electrical experience and
> connections with the tools needed for just about everything.
>
> I have a VW Type 3 Squareback and wanting to convert to a short range car
> with the capability to drive on the expressway about 10 miles at 45 / 55
> mph.
> Just an around town car. (I live in a pretty flat location with about a 15
> mile range from one end of town to the other.
>
> I have looked at the wilderness EV 144 volt DC conversion kit:
> Price is $5,495 +shipping.
> This pretty much has everything but the batteries.
>
> The other option I am looking at is the Cloud EV:
> Conversion Kit 108-120V Warp 9" Impulse Motor & Curtis Controller
> Price is $3,699.00 + Shipping
> With this one I would need to source the adapter plate, shaft coupler, and
> charging systems for both the 120v and 12v and Batteries.
>
> I priced some of the parts out separately and really the numbers would come
> out pretty similar.
> Would I be better off with using a "kit" that has been pretty much tested
> rather than building up my own, or is there some specs I can use from other
> vehicles that might be a better option.
> Or thoughts on comparisons with the Warp motor compared to the D&D? (not
> worried about low end torque so much at this point, but would like to go up
> longer hills from time to time as there is a ski resort within 20 miles of
> my home)
>
> Any suggestions on batteries?  I wanted to start out with basic and
> eventually evolve the system to a better driving range or battery life.
> (hopefully when prices go down in the next decade).
>
> Thanks,
> Brent
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-an-EV-project-tp17027249p17027249.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[Roger Stockton]

Brent (Chapco) wrote:

> I have a VW Type 3 Squareback and wanting to convert to a
> short range car with the capability to drive on the
> expressway about 10 miles at 45 / 55 mph.
> Just an around town car. (I live in a pretty flat location
> with about a 15 mile range from one end of town to the other.
>
> I have looked at the wilderness EV 144 volt DC conversion kit:
> Price is $5,495 +shipping.
> This pretty much has everything but the batteries.
>
> The other option I am looking at is the Cloud EV:
> Conversion Kit 108-120V Warp 9" Impulse Motor & Curtis
> Controller Price is $3,699.00 + Shipping With this one I
> would need to source the adapter plate, shaft coupler, and
> charging systems for both the 120v and 12v and Batteries.
>
> I priced some of the parts out separately and really the
> numbers would come out pretty similar.
> Would I be better off with using a "kit" that has been pretty
> much tested rather than building up my own, or is there some
> specs I can use from other vehicles that might be a better option.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't consider either of these to be a "conversion kit"; more like a component package.  And, the picture of the package contents on the Wilderness Evs site tells me that you're paying for some stuff that you'd be better off throwing away (e.g the battery clamps).  Also, the Wilderness EV kit states that it includes a Kilovac contactor, but the picture clearly shows an Albright.

A "real" conversion kit such as the likes offered by ElectroAutomotive or Canadian Electric Vehicles will include all of the components needed, but is also vehicle-specific and includes battery racks, brackets, etc. ready to install into your particular vehicle along with step-by-step instructions.

> Or thoughts on comparisons with the Warp motor compared to
> the D&D? (not worried about low end torque so much at this
> point, but would like to go up longer hills from time to time
> as there is a ski resort within 20 miles of my home)

The Wilderness EVs kit includes a 6.7" motor vs Cloud's 9" Warp; the 9" in question is the Impulse version, which I gather is similar to an ADC 8" in power capability (i.e. greater power capability for longer than a lighter, smaller 6.7".

The Wilderness EVs kit includes a 12V charger for the house battery rather than a proper DC/DC; that and the cheesy battery clamps are major turn-offs for this option.  The major components (motor, controller, charger) are decent choices, though I expect the 6.7" D&D motor will be better suited to a light vehicle that doesn't need to sustain high power for long (e.g. hill climbing).

Personally, I'd pass on either.  An Impulse 9/Curtis 1231C bought from EV Parts (for instance) runs $1600 + 1950 = $3550 vs Cloud's "kit" at $3700 for the same parts; put the $150 difference toward shipping.

My own suggestion is to pick the parts you want and buy them from a reputable vendor.  Browsing the EV Parts site, here's a possible shopping list:

Air-cooled VW motor adapter (clutch type) for ADC 8" or 9": $999
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-AK2110.htm> or <http://www.evparts.com/prod-AK2111.htm>

ADC 8": ~$1500 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-MT2117.htm>

Café Electric Zilla 1K-LV: $1975 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-CT2510.htm>

Curtic PB-6 potbox: $99 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-PB2221.htm>

Albright SW-200 Contactor: $133 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-SL2558.htm>

Iota 45A DC/DC: $204 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-DC2461.htm>

Lug 2/0, 5/16" hole: $2.68 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-TM2331.htm> (* 24 = ~$65 assuming 6VGCs)

Heinemann breaker: $221 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-CB2410.htm>

500A 250VDC fuse: $61 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-FU9532.htm>

500A 50mV shunt: $35 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-SH2516.htm>

500A ammeter: $65 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-IN2514.htm>

80-180V expanded scale voltmeter: $65 <http://www.evparts.com/prod-IN2548.htm>

Total: $5422.  This gives you a larger motor (knock $500 off if you choose to go with a 6.7" instead; add $100 for an Impulse 9), and a much better, more powerful controller (1000A vs 400A in the Wilderness EVs kit, if their kit description can be trusted).  It also gives you a proper 12V DC/DC to keep your house battery topped off and your lights crisp and wipers brisk.  And, it includes both a main fuse and a breaker.  It doesn't include the (assumed 2/0) traction cable, as well as a few minor odds and ends that you'll need to complete the conversion.

Not included is a charger; some possibilities include:

Charger option 1: Russco SC18-120 + boost transformer (12.5A max out; $870 + $175 = $1045)
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CH2450.htm>
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CP2440.htm>

Charger option 2: Russco SC30-120DSO +  boost transformer (17.5A max out; $1084 + $225 =
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CH2452.htm>
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CP2441.htm>

Charger option 2: Manzanita Micro PFC20 (20A max out; $1960)
<http://www.evparts.com/prod-CH2440.htm>

Of couse, an isolated charger such as the Zivan NG-3 in the Wilderness EVs kit, or a smaller NG-1 (if you are fine with charging overnight) is also an option, but I couldn't find prices for them on the EV Parts site and ther's a limit to how much shopping I'm willing to do for you ;^>

I've assumed (particularly in my choice of battery lugs) that you would use a 144V pack of 6V floodeds.  This may be a larger (and heavier!) pack than your poor Squareback can handle.  For a first pack, I strongly recommend flooded lead acid for your batteries as they are about the most forgiving choice.  If you can't fit/carry this sort of pack (about 1500lbs), you could go to flooded 8VGCs to drop the weight below 1200lbs (with a reduction in peak power available).  Flooded 12Vs are generally not recommended, however, you might consider something like the Trojan J150 Plus (70min @ 75A, 83lb flooded 12V): <http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/J150Plus12V.aspx>.  This option would drop your pack to (just) under 1000lbs.  Stay away from the marine/RV "dual-purpose" type flooded 12V batteries as they tend not to stand up to the high discharge currents in an on-road EV.  When it comes time to replace this pack, you might choose to install a set of higher-performance 12V AGMs, such as Group 31 Optimas or similar size models from Hawker/Odyssey (and a set of Rudman Regs).

Cheers,

Roger.

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[Chapco]

Thanks for the info everyone who emailed me.
I have been researching but there sometimes is more info than one can consume over 2 years and its hard to be patient and allow yourself to listen and the "kits" seemed like an easy selling point for my wife. I shared the info with her and she agreed there are possibly some better options around the same price, so I can keep moving forward.
I would really like to go with the zilla, but I guess the 4 month lead time freaked me out a little. I suppose I can be patient for something nice and spend a few months with the welder and building up some sweet support suspension components and battery supports and find areas to drop weight at the same time.

I think Rogers message helped me realize there are more than a few options to building up a part selection on your own.


Randy, the Squareback is still gas powered.
When I get it started for the project I will put my progress on a blog as i have a bunch of friends interested but afraid to start.
I am still considering converting a notchback that doesnt have a motor in it, or an actually really nice conditioned fastback that is for sale in town for $600 .  of course my friends are inspired and might look at doing the same thing with those cars.

Cheers,
Brent

[kenaparsons ()]

So crazy. I am in the process of converting a 1973 Type III squareback myself and am in the beginning stages. Someone gave me the car and I was going to sell it, but am now deep into research and literally still a bolt away from the engine being removed. I am going to use an Advance DC 203-06-4001A motor (8") and Curtis Controller 1221C in a 96V system. This way I can upgrade to 120V if necessary but for me this car will be an 8mile one-way city commute car, so I don't need any performance engine. I am still unsure of whether to use Trojans or Optimas (flooded lead acid vs. AGM), though I am planning on using the 12V T-1275 Trojans. All told, I think it is going to cost between 5000-6500. I am keeping a blog - squarebackev.blogspot.com - so when you start your blog please post your address here as I'd like to see your progress.

Ken

[Tim Humphrey]

Weird. For the longest time Lou's Squareback was the only one in the EV album... Now here's you guys all converting Squarebacks.

Oh, BTW, my 68' Squareback is in the driveway, undergoing conversion right now. 23 miles round trip. No charge at work. 1/2 highway (55),  1/2 city (30).

clutchless
1221c 120v/400a
8" series-wound (of unknown origin) nameplate says 69v 12.5hp
Floodies

options being considered...

contactor controller
Hawkers
Lithium

Considering Lithium batteries since they are the same price as floodies for total lifetime energy delivered. I have the Hawkers already, but if I have to ever replace them they will be 4 to 5 times the cost of floodies/lithium.


Stay Charged!
Hump

kenaparsons wrote:

So crazy. I am in the process of converting a 1973 Type III squareback myself and am in the beginning stages. Someone gave me the car and I was going to sell it, but am now deep into research and literally still a bolt away from the engine being removed. I am going to use an Advance DC 203-06-4001A motor (8") and Curtis Controller 1221C in a 96V system. This way I can upgrade to 120V if necessary but for me this car will be an 8mile one-way city commute car, so I don't need any performance engine. I am still unsure of whether to use Trojans or Optimas (flooded lead acid vs. AGM), though I am planning on using the 12V T-1275 Trojans. All told, I think it is going to cost between 5000-6500. I am keeping a blog - squarebackev.blogspot.com - so when you start your blog please post your address here as I'd like to see your progress.

Ken

[dave cover-2]

I'm impressed. How did you find a 68 VW in the Northeast that wasn't a pile
of rust? WIll you have it down in time to bring it to PODC?

On 5/14/08, Tim Humphrey <hump@...> wrote:

>
>
> Weird. For the longest time Lou's Squareback was the only one in the EV
> album... Now here's you guys all converting Squarebacks.
>
> Oh, BTW, my 68' Squareback is in the driveway, undergoing conversion right
> now. 23 miles round trip. No charge at work. 1/2 highway (55),  1/2 city
> (30).
>
> clutchless
> 1221c 120v/400a
> 8" series-wound (of unknown origin) nameplate says 69v 12.5hp
> Floodies
>
> options being considered...
>
> contactor controller
> Hawkers
> Lithium
>
> Considering Lithium batteries since they are the same price as floodies for
> total lifetime energy delivered. I have the Hawkers already, but if I have
> to ever replace them they will be 4 to 5 times the cost of
> floodies/lithium.
>
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
>
>
> kenaparsons wrote:
> >
> > So crazy. I am in the process of converting a 1973 Type III squareback
> > myself and am in the beginning stages. Someone gave me the car and I was
> > going to sell it, but am now deep into research and literally still a
> bolt
> > away from the engine being removed. I am going to use an Advance DC
> > 203-06-4001A motor (8") and Curtis Controller 1221C in a 96V system. This
> > way I can upgrade to 120V if necessary but for me this car will be an
> > 8mile one-way city commute car, so I don't need any performance engine. I
> > am still unsure of whether to use Trojans or Optimas (flooded lead acid
> > vs. AGM), though I am planning on using the 12V T-1275 Trojans. All told,
> > I think it is going to cost between 5000-6500. I am keeping a blog -
> > squarebackev.blogspot.com - so when you start your blog please post your
> > address here as I'd like to see your progress.
> >
> > Ken
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-an-EV-project-tp17027249p17232215.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[EVDL Administrator]

On 14 May 2008 at 7:19, Tim Humphrey wrote:

> 8" series-wound (of unknown origin) nameplate says 69v 12.5hp

My brain may have skipped a gear, but that sounds like what I read on a
Comut-Van motor once.  It was a GE product, but I don't know the model
number.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL Administrator]

On 14 May 2008 at 5:59, kenaparsons wrote:

> I am going to use an Advance DC 203-06-4001A motor
> (8") and Curtis Controller 1221C in a 96V system. This way I can upgrade to
> 120V if necessary but for me this car will be an 8mile one-way city commute
> car, so I don't need any performance engine. I am still unsure of whether to
> use Trojans or Optimas (flooded lead acid vs. AGM), though I am planning on
> using the 12V T-1275 Trojans.

I was going to say that AGM's forte is high current for people who like to
pull their teeth out of the headrest after they accelerate ;-), and with
your proposed setup you don't need that.  However, if you HAVE to use 12v
batteries, AGMs will almost always outlast 12v marine batteries.

Now, the T-1275s are probably at least somewhat more durable than marine
batteries.  I don't have experience with them so I can't be sure, but their
weight of 82 lb suggests they may have a bit more on the ball.  However,
they are almost certainly less long-lived than 8v golf car batteries and
unquestionably less so than 6v golf car batteries. Thus they will cost
appreciably more per mile than either of these.  Look very carefully at
their cost up against AGMs before jumping.

If you want the low cost per mile of flooded batteries, I strongly suggest
you try to use 6v golf car or at least 8v golf car types.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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[Peter VanDerWal]

I'd reccomend that wen building the battery racks, you allow for expansion
of your pack in the future.

My guess is that when you need to replace the 12V batteries this coming
winter, you'll want to go with something that lasts a bit longer.

> for me, I am willing to sacrifice a bit
> of performance and range for a lighter battery pack and a smaller battery
> footprint in the car. It would take 12 8V (756 lbs) batteries and 16 6V
> batteries (1152lbs) and since the size difference from the 8 12V batteries
> (656 lbs) is minimal (only 2 inches saved in length per battery), the
> space
> (and, in the case of 6V T-145, the weight) is quite a lot for me to add.
> Not
> to mention, w/ my 8 mile commute and my secondary reliance on this vehicle
> (my primary is still going to be a trade-off between my bike and the bus),
> I
> am trying to keep things small and simple in the design and performance.
> But, your point still stands, over time I am spending more to do this than
> to use the 6V or 8V system. Ultimately though, as of yesterday morning,
> for
> me now the consideration is over - I a bit reluctantly went w/ the
> T-1275's
> and purchased them from a great vendor in Anderson, IN, Joe Carter at
> Battery Experts. Thanks though David for the sound advice.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-an-EV-project-tp17027249p17293378.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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[kenaparsons]

EVDL Administrator wrote:

On 14 May 2008 at 5:59, kenaparsons wrote:

> I am going to use an Advance DC 203-06-4001A motor
> (8") and Curtis Controller 1221C in a 96V system. This way I can upgrade to
> 120V if necessary but for me this car will be an 8mile one-way city commute
> car, so I don't need any performance engine. I am still unsure of whether to
> use Trojans or Optimas (flooded lead acid vs. AGM), though I am planning on
> using the 12V T-1275 Trojans.

I was going to say that AGM's forte is high current for people who like to
pull their teeth out of the headrest after they accelerate ;-), and with
your proposed setup you don't need that.  However, if you HAVE to use 12v
batteries, AGMs will almost always outlast 12v marine batteries.

Now, the T-1275s are probably at least somewhat more durable than marine
batteries.  I don't have experience with them so I can't be sure, but their
weight of 82 lb suggests they may have a bit more on the ball.  However,
they are almost certainly less long-lived than 8v golf car batteries and
unquestionably less so than 6v golf car batteries. Thus they will cost
appreciably more per mile than either of these.  Look very carefully at
their cost up against AGMs before jumping.

If you want the low cost per mile of flooded batteries, I strongly suggest
you try to use 6v golf car or at least 8v golf car types.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

Yes, I totally agree, and from my research, it seems a 6V or 8V battery pack is the way to go for flooded if one wants low cost over time in addition to better range and performance. But, for me, I am willing to sacrifice a bit of performance and range for a lighter battery pack and a smaller battery footprint in the car. It would take 12 8V (756 lbs) batteries and 16 6V batteries (1152lbs) and since the size difference from the 8 12V batteries (656 lbs) is minimal (only 2 inches saved in length per battery), the space (and, in the case of 6V T-145, the weight) is quite a lot for me to add. Not to mention, w/ my 8 mile commute and my secondary reliance on this vehicle (my primary is still going to be a trade-off between my bike and the bus), I am trying to keep things small and simple in the design and performance. But, your point still stands, over time I am spending more to do this than to use the 6V or 8V system. Ultimately though, as of yesterday morning, for me now the consideration is over - I a bit reluctantly went w/ the T-1275's and purchased them from a great vendor in Anderson, IN, Joe Carter at Battery Experts. Thanks though David for the sound advice.

[kenaparsons]

Wait, this coming winter I'll need to replace it? I hope that is a joke...So how much worse off is a 12V pack than the 8V or 6V pack? I was under the impression that I was sacrificing range and speed, not longevity, by using 12V batteries. Where is there evidence that 12V's don't last as long?

And yes, I did allow for the usual expansion but hopefully I won't be abusing these batteries too much and avoid serious swelling.

Peter VanDerWal wrote:

I'd reccomend that wen building the battery racks, you allow for expansion
of your pack in the future.

My guess is that when you need to replace the 12V batteries this coming
winter, you'll want to go with something that lasts a bit longer.


> for me, I am willing to sacrifice a bit
> of performance and range for a lighter battery pack and a smaller battery
> footprint in the car. It would take 12 8V (756 lbs) batteries and 16 6V
> batteries (1152lbs) and since the size difference from the 8 12V batteries
> (656 lbs) is minimal (only 2 inches saved in length per battery), the
> space
> (and, in the case of 6V T-145, the weight) is quite a lot for me to add.
> Not
> to mention, w/ my 8 mile commute and my secondary reliance on this vehicle
> (my primary is still going to be a trade-off between my bike and the bus),
> I
> am trying to keep things small and simple in the design and performance.
> But, your point still stands, over time I am spending more to do this than
> to use the 6V or 8V system. Ultimately though, as of yesterday morning,
> for
> me now the consideration is over - I a bit reluctantly went w/ the
> T-1275's
> and purchased them from a great vendor in Anderson, IN, Joe Carter at
> Battery Experts. Thanks though David for the sound advice.
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Pricing-for-an-EV-project-tp17027249p17293378.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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[EVDL Administrator]

On 17 May 2008 at 20:15, kenaparsons wrote:

> Where is there evidence that 12V's don't last as long?

All around you on this list.  Ask anyone who's used them.  

Flooded marine batteries especially; they're designed to run trolling motors
and lights.  They just can't handle cruising down the road at 75-100 amps
and acceleration at 400-600 amps.

Trojan 27TMH batteries are some of the better flooded marine batteries, and
they typically last 12-18 months in a road EV.  In very hot climates you're
lucky to get them through one summer.

The 12v floor sweeper batteries such as the old Trojan 5SHP last somewhat
longer than marine batteries, but still don't last as long as 6v golf car
batteries.  (Trojan don't seem to make the 5SHP any more, btw.)  

The relationship is far from exact because many other factors enter, but in
many cases you can say that a flooded battery's lifetime is approximately
related to its mass and to the power it's asked to produce.  

A typical 6v GC-2 golf car battery weighs about 65lb.  With typical care, it
can live happily for 2-3 years powering an EV that cruises at 75-100 amps
and accelerates at a peak of 500-600 amps.  That's about 600W continuously.

A group 27 12v marine battery weighs about the same or a little more (more
plastic in it), but when you ask it to produce 100 amps for cruising in the
same EV, it has to push out 1200W instead of 600W.  It typically lives about
half as long as the golf car battery.  Could be coincidence, but it does
seem to happen pretty consistently.

Your T-1275s weigh 82lb, about 25% more than a 27TMH, so I'd guess they
ought to last about 15-22 months.

Again, this isn't exact by any means, but it may give you an idea of what to
expect.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but experience has pretty well borne
this out - 12 volt flooded batteries are not very well suited to road EVs,
especially low voltage / high current DC EVs.  

AGM 12v batteries are more suited to road EVs because most (not all) are
more adroit at producing high currents.  Of course, they usually cost more.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[kenaparsons]

Ah, well yes, bad news, but I totally appreciate the honesty and information. I had seen that 12V were less than ideal, but your points are sound. I am going to think about designing the vehicle for 8Vs in the future when I think about welding a frame and when I end up having to replace these. Again, thank you.

EVDL Administrator wrote:

On 17 May 2008 at 20:15, kenaparsons wrote:

> Where is there evidence that 12V's don't last as long?

All around you on this list.  Ask anyone who's used them.  

Flooded marine batteries especially; they're designed to run trolling motors
and lights.  They just can't handle cruising down the road at 75-100 amps
and acceleration at 400-600 amps.

Trojan 27TMH batteries are some of the better flooded marine batteries, and
they typically last 12-18 months in a road EV.  In very hot climates you're
lucky to get them through one summer.

The 12v floor sweeper batteries such as the old Trojan 5SHP last somewhat
longer than marine batteries, but still don't last as long as 6v golf car
batteries.  (Trojan don't seem to make the 5SHP any more, btw.)  

The relationship is far from exact because many other factors enter, but in
many cases you can say that a flooded battery's lifetime is approximately
related to its mass and to the power it's asked to produce.  

A typical 6v GC-2 golf car battery weighs about 65lb.  With typical care, it
can live happily for 2-3 years powering an EV that cruises at 75-100 amps
and accelerates at a peak of 500-600 amps.  That's about 600W continuously.

A group 27 12v marine battery weighs about the same or a little more (more
plastic in it), but when you ask it to produce 100 amps for cruising in the
same EV, it has to push out 1200W instead of 600W.  It typically lives about
half as long as the golf car battery.  Could be coincidence, but it does
seem to happen pretty consistently.

Your T-1275s weigh 82lb, about 25% more than a 27TMH, so I'd guess they
ought to last about 15-22 months.

Again, this isn't exact by any means, but it may give you an idea of what to
expect.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but experience has pretty well borne
this out - 12 volt flooded batteries are not very well suited to road EVs,
especially low voltage / high current DC EVs.  

AGM 12v batteries are more suited to road EVs because most (not all) are
more adroit at producing high currents.  Of course, they usually cost more.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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