Pins from Pickit 2 to 887

[Tomás Ó hÉilidhe-2]

I got the "Pickit2 Debug Express" yesterday. It consists of:

    * Pickit2 device that looks like a small black hockey puck
    * A small little prototype board that has an 887 in the middle of
it, plus a few LED's and a variable resistor

The 887 came shipped with a program on it that lights the LED's in a
sequence.

I've used the device with MPLAB and I'm happy with it, I can program it
and debug it. I can halt the program and single-step through the
instructions. It's great.

Given that I'm so happy with this setup, I want to mimic it on my actual
project board. Therefore I've been analysing the connections from the
Pickit2 to the prototype board. There's 6 pins going from the Pickit2 to
the small board. These 6 pins are unmarked on the Pickit2 (no name or
symbol on them).

On my project board, I'm going to have a 6-pin header for hooking up the
Pickit2 to it.

Using the continuity tester on my multimeter, I've determined, from left
to right, that the Pickit2 pins go to the following on the 887:

    1: ?? (Doesn't seem to be connected to anything)
    2: RB6   /   ICSPCLK
    3: RB7   /   ICSPDATA
    4: GND
    5 Vdd
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

    6: MCLR   /   Vpp

Here's my first questions:
    Q1) On my project board, is it OK to hard-wire Vdd and GND to 5 V
and 0 V respectively? Or does the Pickit 2 need to control them?

    Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?

Regarding RB6 and RB7, well I was planning on using all the pins on port
B for push buttons. One side of a pushbutton would go to the PIC pin,
and the other would go straight to GND. I would then use the internal
pull-up's so that I don't need a resistor on each of the pushbuttons.

    Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
voltages applied to them by the Pickit2? (It's no big deal if I can't,
it's just that the internal pull-up's are handy because they negate the
need for extra resistors so that the pin is floating)

It doesn't appear as if the Pickit2's leftmost pin is connected to
anything, but if anyone knows better then please advise!

Also if there's any caveats please let me know! Am I on the right track
with this?

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[Tamas Rudnai]

Great device, isn't it? :-)

>   Q1) On my project board, is it OK to hard-wire Vdd and GND to 5 V
> and 0 V respectively? Or does the Pickit 2 need to control them?

PicKit2 CAN supply +5V (or less) however, you can supply Vdd of your own,
PicKit2 will know it and will switch off Vdd supply - you will see a notice
when you run the app.

>    Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
> do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
> is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?

If MCLR_OFF is in your config fuse then the PIC will switch on the internal
pullup on the MCLR, so you can leave it as it is - and wire it to the PicKit
pin as you mentioned. See the datasheet what it says abut MCLR anyway. Also
look for ICSP or In Circuit Serial Programming for get the idea what it is
all about, how to wire etc. Someone here or in an other thread here
mentioned Olin's information about this, it worth to read.

>   Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
> in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
> voltages applied to them by the Pickit2?

It's not a voltage (aka DC) but a serial communication in between the chip
and the pickit2. I'd suggest not using these at least during the development
phase - or experiment phase to learn PIC.

The "leftmost" pin as you call it is the PGM pin or LVP pin. You do not need
to use that really, but see the datasheet and maybe the programmer guide
what to do with the PGM/LVP pin of the PIC. If that is always connected to
PicKit2 it is safe to wire it only to that "leftmost" pin... And take a look
at the PicKit2 owners manual, the pins are well defined there so the
schematics of pickit2 if you need the idea for interfacing with it.

Tamas



On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe <toe@...> wrote:

>
> I got the "Pickit2 Debug Express" yesterday. It consists of:
>
>    * Pickit2 device that looks like a small black hockey puck
>    * A small little prototype board that has an 887 in the middle of
> it, plus a few LED's and a variable resistor
>
> The 887 came shipped with a program on it that lights the LED's in a
> sequence.
>
> I've used the device with MPLAB and I'm happy with it, I can program it
> and debug it. I can halt the program and single-step through the
> instructions. It's great.
>
> Given that I'm so happy with this setup, I want to mimic it on my actual
> project board. Therefore I've been analysing the connections from the
> Pickit2 to the prototype board. There's 6 pins going from the Pickit2 to
> the small board. These 6 pins are unmarked on the Pickit2 (no name or
> symbol on them).
>
> On my project board, I'm going to have a 6-pin header for hooking up the
> Pickit2 to it.
>
> Using the continuity tester on my multimeter, I've determined, from left
> to right, that the Pickit2 pins go to the following on the 887:
>
>    1: ?? (Doesn't seem to be connected to anything)
>    2: RB6   /   ICSPCLK
>    3: RB7   /   ICSPDATA
>    4: GND
>    5 Vdd
>
>
>    6: MCLR   /   Vpp
>
> Here's my first questions:
>    Q1) On my project board, is it OK to hard-wire Vdd and GND to 5 V
> and 0 V respectively? Or does the Pickit 2 need to control them?
>
>    Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
> do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
> is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?
>
> Regarding RB6 and RB7, well I was planning on using all the pins on port
> B for push buttons. One side of a pushbutton would go to the PIC pin,
> and the other would go straight to GND. I would then use the internal
> pull-up's so that I don't need a resistor on each of the pushbuttons.
>
>    Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
> in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
> voltages applied to them by the Pickit2? (It's no big deal if I can't,
> it's just that the internal pull-up's are handy because they negate the
> need for extra resistors so that the pin is floating)
>
> It doesn't appear as if the Pickit2's leftmost pin is connected to
> anything, but if anyone knows better then please advise!
>
> Also if there's any caveats please let me know! Am I on the right track
> with this?
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>

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[Richard Seriani, Sr.]

The PICkit2 User's Guide and the ICSP Guide have the answers to your
questions. While I am not done studying these yet (I've had my PICkit2 for
only about a week), I do specifically recall reading about, and seeing an
illustration of, the connector pinout. Also, the question of what to do
about isolating pins is in the ICSP Guide, along with info about !MCLR, etc.

Both of these documents are on the CD that came with the PICkit2. They are
also available on the Microchip web site.

Richard

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tomás Ó hÉilidhe" <toe@...>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: [PIC] Pins from Pickit 2 to 887

>
> I got the "Pickit2 Debug Express" yesterday. It consists of:
>
>    * Pickit2 device that looks like a small black hockey puck
>    * A small little prototype board that has an 887 in the middle of
> it, plus a few LED's and a variable resistor
>
> The 887 came shipped with a program on it that lights the LED's in a
> sequence.
>
> I've used the device with MPLAB and I'm happy with it, I can program it
> and debug it. I can halt the program and single-step through the
> instructions. It's great.
>
> Given that I'm so happy with this setup, I want to mimic it on my actual
> project board. Therefore I've been analysing the connections from the
> Pickit2 to the prototype board. There's 6 pins going from the Pickit2 to
> the small board. These 6 pins are unmarked on the Pickit2 (no name or
> symbol on them).
>
> On my project board, I'm going to have a 6-pin header for hooking up the
> Pickit2 to it.
>
> Using the continuity tester on my multimeter, I've determined, from left
> to right, that the Pickit2 pins go to the following on the 887:
>
>    1: ?? (Doesn't seem to be connected to anything)
>    2: RB6   /   ICSPCLK
>    3: RB7   /   ICSPDATA
>    4: GND
>    5 Vdd
>
>
>    6: MCLR   /   Vpp
>
> Here's my first questions:
>    Q1) On my project board, is it OK to hard-wire Vdd and GND to 5 V
> and 0 V respectively? Or does the Pickit 2 need to control them?
>
>    Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
> do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
> is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?
>
> Regarding RB6 and RB7, well I was planning on using all the pins on port
> B for push buttons. One side of a pushbutton would go to the PIC pin,
> and the other would go straight to GND. I would then use the internal
> pull-up's so that I don't need a resistor on each of the pushbuttons.
>
>    Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
> in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
> voltages applied to them by the Pickit2? (It's no big deal if I can't,
> it's just that the internal pull-up's are handy because they negate the
> need for extra resistors so that the pin is floating)
>
> It doesn't appear as if the Pickit2's leftmost pin is connected to
> anything, but if anyone knows better then please advise!
>
> Also if there's any caveats please let me know! Am I on the right track
> with this?
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>

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[Timothy Weber]

Tamas Rudnai wrote:
>>   Q3) Will I not be able to use RB6 and RB7 for pushbuttons when I'm
>> in debug mode? Or will I not be able to use them at all because of the
>> voltages applied to them by the Pickit2?
>
> It's not a voltage (aka DC) but a serial communication in between the chip
> and the pickit2. I'd suggest not using these at least during the development
> phase - or experiment phase to learn PIC.

And just to amplify that - no, you can't use them for buttons when the
PICkit2 is connected, because the PICkit2 has pull-down resistors on
them.  Well, you could use them for buttons if the buttons are pulled up
on contact, but you still can't use them while debugging.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org
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[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:

> These 6 pins are unmarked on the Pickit2 (no name or
> symbol on them).

It would surprice me *very much* if the connector
isn't documented in the PICkit2 documentation !

I just checked and of course it is, on page 9 in
the "PICkit? 2 Programmer/Debugger User?s Guide".

You havn't even cared to look in the user guide,
have you ?? Lazy...

>     Q2) Can I just hardwire the MCLR pin straight to my 6-pin header, or
> do I need this pin to have a specific value for normal operation? (i.e.
> is it OK to have it floating when the Pickit2 isn't connected)?

Again, you havn't even cared to open the datasheet.
Section 14.2.2 on page 209 clearly answers this.

MCLR shoud *not* be left open. And you should *not*
try to use "internal MCLR" at this stage. There is
no reason to go into details at this stage, just
don't try it...

Jan-Erik.
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[Apptech]

> ... and of course it is ...

Translation: As I suspected it would be.

> Lazy...

Translation:

1.     I'm standing in as a locum.
or
2.     I'm tired of posting here anyway.
or
3.    ... ?

> ... you havn't even cared to  ...

Translation:

1.    ... you don't appear to have ...

> MCLR shoud *not* be left open. And you should *not*
try to use "internal MCLR" at this stage. There is
no reason to go into details at this stage, just
don't try it...

Translation:    This snippet of valuable information ,
unlike the other, may not be obvious from the data sheet for
a beginner but I'm not going to tell you why. Just trust me
on this. After all, what option do you have?



        R

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[Wouter van Ooijen]

>> ... and of course it is ...
> Translation: As I suspected it would be.

so the OP will know where to look for the answer to a similar problem
next time. don't (just) give them food, learn them how to grow crops

>> Lazy...
>
> Translation:
>
> 1.     I'm standing in as a locum.
> or
> 2.     I'm tired of posting here anyway.
> or
> 3.    ... ?

3. it can be considered a bit impolite to ask a question without first
looking in top few the most obvious places.

I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

>> MCLR shoud *not* be left open. And you should *not*
> try to use "internal MCLR" at this stage. There is
> no reason to go into details at this stage, just
> don't try it...
>
> Translation:    This snippet of valuable information ,
> unlike the other, may not be obvious from the data sheet for
> a beginner but I'm not going to tell you why. Just trust me
> on this. After all, what option do you have?

MCLR should not be left open, this is perfectly clear from both the
datasheet, the programming documentation, and from the meaning of the pin.

The fact that internal MCLR can cause problems is not clear from the
obvious sources, so it seems a good idea to me to give that hint to the
OP, or should JE have kept that to himself?

The explanation for this problem is complex, and the link (to the
microchip forum) can be found in earlier posts. I don't understand why
you seem to critisise JE here. Is it for bidden to give a very important
hint without also giving the (very long and complex) explanation (that
is available elswhere, explained by probably the only person why realy
understand it)?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: www.voti.nl/hvu

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[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

> I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

Neither do I. :-)
But I guessed it wasn't anything positive... :-) :-)

> The fact that internal MCLR can cause problems is not
 > clear from the obvious sources,...
>
> The explanation for this problem is complex,...

Exactly, that's why I thought that it was no use, at
this stage, to go into details about Vpp-before-Vdd
and other int-MCLR specifics. If you realy don't *have*
to have that extra I/O-pin, just leave it as ext-MCLR.
And follow the datasheet about how to connect it...

And I do not think that the OP currently need another
problem to deal with.

Regards,
Jan-Erik.

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[Apptech]

We don't disagree very much at all on substantive content,
fwiw.

> Wouter van Ooijen wrote:

>> I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

> Neither do I. :-)
> But I guessed it wasn't anything positive... :-) :-)

i) Moi? Would I be non positive ? :-)

ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
internet resources before asking what something means. You
were asking, weren't you? :-)

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locum

    "Locum, short for the Latin phrase locum tenens (lit.
"place-holder," akin to lieutenant), is a person who
temporarily fulfills the duties of another. For example, a
Locum doctor is a doctor who works in the place of the
regular doctor when that doctor is absent. These
professionals are still governed by their respective
regulatory bodies, despite the transient nature of their
positions.
The abbreviated form "locum" is common in Great Britain,
Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and most other countries;
unlike in Latin its plural is locums. In the United States,
the full length "locum tenens" is preferred, though for some
particular roles, alternative expressions (e.g. "substitute
teacher") may be more commonly used."



Positive enough ? :-)

__________________________________________

>> The fact that internal MCLR can cause problems is not
> > clear from the obvious sources,...
>>
>> The explanation for this problem is complex,...
>
> Exactly, that's why I thought that it was no use, at
> this stage, to go into details about Vpp-before-Vdd
> and other int-MCLR specifics. If you realy don't *have*
> to have that extra I/O-pin, just leave it as ext-MCLR.
> And follow the datasheet about how to connect it...
>
> And I do not think that the OP currently need another
> problem to deal with.

Sounds good.

I'll split you 50:50 on that one.

Deal ?

:-).

My point was not just to be picky (although I may have
erred, perhaps, just maybe, can it be) a little too far that
way, but to suggest that "steel fist in velvet glove" /
"walk softly, carry a big stick" may elicit better results
than "the beatings will continue until morale improves". Not
always though. WE Irish can be stubborn in such matters.
(Even though I've only spent 3 days there ever and it's well
over 100 years since any of my ancestors left there).



        Russell





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[Jinx-4]

> I have no idea what a locum is meant to be?

They're those things that eat all the crops aren't they ?

(I know what Russell is alluding to)

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[Wouter van Ooijen]

> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
> internet resources before asking what something means. You
> were asking, weren't you? :-)

actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
stand in for O in the negative sense?

> My point was not just to be picky (although I may have
> erred, perhaps, just maybe, can it be) a little too far that
> way, but to suggest that "steel fist in velvet glove" /
> "walk softly, carry a big stick" may elicit better results
> than "the beatings will continue until morale improves".

There are different viewpoints on this matter. If the "velvet gloves"
start criticizing the "big sticks", they might expect some criticism in
return! So maybe we should all just answer the questions asked, and
refrain from (non-technical) comment on the styles of the answers?

--

Wouter van Ooijen

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[James Nick Sears-2]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@...> wrote:
>> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
>> internet resources before asking what something means. You
>> were asking, weren't you? :-)
>
> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
> stand in for O in the negative sense?

Didn't you even BOTHER to check GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA?!?!?!??!?1/1/11!1!

Google+Wikipedia : The real world :: Datasheets+Appnotes :: PIC micros

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+locum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locum

(All in good fun of course)

-n.
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[Tamas Rudnai]

I am not sure why to argue 'bout everything... Someone has an opinion,
others have different one, that's ok. No reason to criticising the other
only to write for the sake of criticism. That's why a forum is good,
everyone writes his/her contribution to the subject and it can be a hint or
a straight answer, similar or opposite than the others, but you can express
your thought/knowledge. However, to post something to just telling how or
why the previous answer made - 'dunno guys, really...

Tamas


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@...> wrote:

> > ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
> > internet resources before asking what something means. You
> > were asking, weren't you? :-)
>
> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
> stand in for O in the negative sense?
>
> > My point was not just to be picky (although I may have
> > erred, perhaps, just maybe, can it be) a little too far that
> > way, but to suggest that "steel fist in velvet glove" /
> > "walk softly, carry a big stick" may elicit better results
> > than "the beatings will continue until morale improves".
>
> There are different viewpoints on this matter. If the "velvet gloves"
> start criticizing the "big sticks", they might expect some criticism in
> return! So maybe we should all just answer the questions asked, and
> refrain from (non-technical) comment on the styles of the answers?
>
> --
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------------------------------------------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: www.voti.nl/hvu
>
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[James Nick Sears-2]

In an ideal world, O how I agree with you.  How beautiful would it be.

"I see skies of blue, red roses too..."

-n.


On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:12 AM, Tamas Rudnai <tamas.rudnai@...> wrote:

> I am not sure why to argue 'bout everything... Someone has an opinion,
> others have different one, that's ok. No reason to criticising the other
> only to write for the sake of criticism. That's why a forum is good,
> everyone writes his/her contribution to the subject and it can be a hint or
> a straight answer, similar or opposite than the others, but you can express
> your thought/knowledge. However, to post something to just telling how or
> why the previous answer made - 'dunno guys, really...
>
> Tamas
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@...> wrote:
>
>> > ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
>> > internet resources before asking what something means. You
>> > were asking, weren't you? :-)
>>
>> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
>> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
>> stand in for O in the negative sense?
>>
>> > My point was not just to be picky (although I may have
>> > erred, perhaps, just maybe, can it be) a little too far that
>> > way, but to suggest that "steel fist in velvet glove" /
>> > "walk softly, carry a big stick" may elicit better results
>> > than "the beatings will continue until morale improves".
>>
>> There are different viewpoints on this matter. If the "velvet gloves"
>> start criticizing the "big sticks", they might expect some criticism in
>> return! So maybe we should all just answer the questions asked, and
>> refrain from (non-technical) comment on the styles of the answers?
>>
>> --
>>
>> Wouter van Ooijen
>>
>> -- -------------------------------------------
>> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: www.voti.nl
>> consultancy, development, PICmicro products
>> docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: www.voti.nl/hvu
>>
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>
>
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[Wouter van Ooijen]

James Nick Sears wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@...> wrote:
>>> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
>>> internet resources before asking what something means. You
>>> were asking, weren't you? :-)

>> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
>> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
>> stand in for O in the negative sense?

> Didn't you even BOTHER to check GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA?!?!?!??!?1/1/11!1!

I am flabbergasted. I wrote "actually I *did* check" and you answer
"Didn't you even BOTHER to check"?

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[James Nick Sears-2]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 6:43 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@...> wrote:

> James Nick Sears wrote:
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@...> wrote:
>>>> ii) I'm surprised that y'all haven't checked the available
>>>> internet resources before asking what something means. You
>>>> were asking, weren't you? :-)
>
>>> actually I *did* check, but only found the Latin explanation that (to
>>> me) did not make any obvious sense. I hope you did not mean JE to be a
>>> stand in for O in the negative sense?
>
>> Didn't you even BOTHER to check GOOGLE and WIKIPEDIA?!?!?!??!?1/1/11!1!
>
> I am flabbergasted. I wrote "actually I *did* check" and you answer
> "Didn't you even BOTHER to check"?

You can SAY you checked, but if you didn't find what was publicly
available, you mustn't have checked thoroughly enough.

I didn't know what 'locum' meant either, but a quick glance at Google
cleared things right up for me.  So it should for you as well.

I'm sure all the n00bs that get busted up in here have glanced in the
general direction of the datasheet.  But until they find the answer,
it's back to the datasheet they must go.

-n.
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