Perfect Solution for Credit Card

[Tomás Ó hÉilidhe-3]

Being paranoid for all the right reasons, I was never mad about getting
a credit card, but today I found the perfect solution.

I went into Halifax here in Ireland and I opened two accounts: one
savings account and one current account.

Into my savings account I put all my money for going away, and I put
nothing into my current account.

For my current account, I get a VISA debit card that works exactly like
a normal credit card (it's VISA after all).

When I actually want to make a purchase with the VISA card, I use
internet banking to transfer money from my savings account to my current
account, (which happens instantly), and then I make the purchase on the
card.

So if my card gets robbed or skimmed or anything, there's nothing the
thieves can do with it because my current account is empty. Strangely
enough, Halifax are the only bank here in Ireland that do such a
service, and I think it's absolutely fantastic :-D

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[M. Adam Davis-2]

That's a good idea!  You might want to double check that they don't
issue an overdraft fee, or do automatic transfers from savings to
checking.  Lots of banks offer those services automatically...

-Adam

On 8/7/08, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe <toe_list@...> wrote:

>
> Being paranoid for all the right reasons, I was never mad about getting
> a credit card, but today I found the perfect solution.
>
> I went into Halifax here in Ireland and I opened two accounts: one
> savings account and one current account.
>
> Into my savings account I put all my money for going away, and I put
> nothing into my current account.
>
> For my current account, I get a VISA debit card that works exactly like
> a normal credit card (it's VISA after all).
>
> When I actually want to make a purchase with the VISA card, I use
> internet banking to transfer money from my savings account to my current
> account, (which happens instantly), and then I make the purchase on the
> card.
>
> So if my card gets robbed or skimmed or anything, there's nothing the
> thieves can do with it because my current account is empty. Strangely
> enough, Halifax are the only bank here in Ireland that do such a
> service, and I think it's absolutely fantastic :-D
>
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[Alan B. Pearce]

>So if my card gets robbed or skimmed or anything, there's nothing
>the thieves can do with it because my current account is empty.

You are correct to a point, but such thieves are adept at deciding what the
floor limit for a shop is (the value below which they do not need to get
authorisation from Visa - it is automatic authorisation), and spending below
that limit.

So you could still have considerable debts run up on the card because these
transactions will get charged to you, even with no money in the account.

It is still necessary for you to very promptly let your bank know that the
card has been stolen, for them to stop such charges appearing on your
account.

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[Apptech]

> When I actually want to make a purchase with the VISA
> card, I use
> internet banking to transfer money from my savings account
> to my current
> account, (which happens instantly), and then I make the
> purchase on the
> card.

You do need to be sure that the internet banking you use is
secure. There are many ways that people try to make it not
so. If the baddies were able to access your savings account
online what effect would that have?


        Russell

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[Robert Rolf]

Apptech wrote:

>>When I actually want to make a purchase with the VISA
>>card, I use
>>internet banking to transfer money from my savings account
>>to my current
>>account, (which happens instantly), and then I make the
>>purchase on the
>>card.
>
>
> You do need to be sure that the internet banking you use is
> secure. There are many ways that people try to make it not
> so. If the baddies were able to access your savings account
> online what effect would that have?
>
>
>         Russell

Cyber criminals exploited wireless vulnerabilities at nine major USA
retailers and stole 41 million credit/debit cards. The fact remains
every major enterprise is vulnerable to wireless attacks

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5520147&page=1

So make sure your bank has a 'fraudulent use' protection clause/guarantee
BEFORE you use ANY of their cards.

Some institutions also have fine print that exempts them from covering a
loss if you can't prove that you have up to date, working, antikeylogger
software installed on ALL the computers in your home network, even if
you only use ONE computer for banking.
PROVING you had antipishing software is rather hard, and their
'guarantee' is pretty useless given the fine print.

Robert


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[peter green-2]

> For my current account, I get a VISA debit card that works exactly like
> a normal credit card (it's VISA after all).
>  
Just watch the fees. at least in the uk a lot of debit cards have pretty
high fees for foriegn transactions (I get charged £1.50
for transactions in US dollars on my british halifax debit card). I
doubt the conversion rates are very favorable either.
> When I actually want to make a purchase with the VISA card, I use
> internet banking to transfer money from my savings account to my current
> account, (which happens instantly), and then I make the purchase on the
> card.
>
> So if my card gets robbed or skimmed or anything, there's nothing the
> thieves can do with it because my current account is empty.
Watch out! some types of card transaction do not check the balance
before the transaction so even if your overdraft limit is zero it is
still possible to end up overdrawn (and with a nasty unauthorised
overdraft fee as well).
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[Herbert Graf-2]

On Thu, 2008-08-07 at 14:10 +0100, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:

> Being paranoid for all the right reasons, I was never mad about getting
> a credit card, but today I found the perfect solution.
>
> I went into Halifax here in Ireland and I opened two accounts: one
> savings account and one current account.
>
> Into my savings account I put all my money for going away, and I put
> nothing into my current account.
>
> For my current account, I get a VISA debit card that works exactly like
> a normal credit card (it's VISA after all).
>
> When I actually want to make a purchase with the VISA card, I use
> internet banking to transfer money from my savings account to my current
> account, (which happens instantly), and then I make the purchase on the
> card.
>
> So if my card gets robbed or skimmed or anything, there's nothing the
> thieves can do with it because my current account is empty. Strangely
> enough, Halifax are the only bank here in Ireland that do such a
> service, and I think it's absolutely fantastic :-D

Frankly I am surprised by how worried Europeans are with regards to
credit cards.

First off, I've never had a problem with a credit card.

That said, I do know people who have had fraudulent transactions and
there was no problem. They simply got their bill, noticed something
wrong, called their card issuer, and the after a day or two the charges
were removed. These days the issuers are more proactive, often calling
the person asking if they made this or that transaction when something
is not right.

I've NEVER heard of a person actually being on the hook for a fraudulent
transaction.

Contrast that to debit cards, which in general offer nothing in the form
of protection. The banks for the longest time simply said, if your pin
was used, you're responsible. Due to pin skimming banks are getting more
understanding, but it's still FAR harder to reverse a charge on a debit
card then a credit card.

Almost all my purchases are on my VISA card. This includes gas,
groceries, planes, etc. I'm fortunate that in Canada pretty much any
retailer of any size accepts VISA. For the times they don't (i.e.
discount computer stores often have a 3% cash/debit "discount" vs. VISA
due to razor thin profit margins) I use my debit card. Only time I ever
use cash is vending machines.

TTYL

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[CDB-3]

:: Today I found the perfect solution.
::
:: I went into Halifax here in Ireland and I opened two accounts: one
:: savings account and one current account.

:: For my current account, I get a VISA debit card that works exactly
:: like
:: a normal credit card (it's VISA after all).

I'm sure that idea was amongst the many suggestions offered to you.

Colin
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[Bob Blick-4]

On Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:56:36 -0400, "Herbert Graf"
<mailinglist4@...> said:

> Frankly I am surprised by how worried Europeans are with regards to
> credit cards.
>
> First off, I've never had a problem with a credit card.
>
> That said, I do know people who have had fraudulent transactions and
> there was no problem. They simply got their bill, noticed something
> wrong, called their card issuer, and the after a day or two the charges
> were removed. These days the issuers are more proactive, often calling
> the person asking if they made this or that transaction when something
> is not right.
>
> I've NEVER heard of a person actually being on the hook for a fraudulent
> transaction.

Agreed. The only thing I would add is to always have two different
credit cards. Because if someone does something bad with your account,
it can take a week to get a replacement card. Or if you're traveling, no
card until you get back home.

Keep the alternate card in a different pocket :)

Cheerful regards,

Bob

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[Herbert Graf-2]

On Thu, 2008-08-07 at 12:35 -0700, Bob Blick wrote:
> Agreed. The only thing I would add is to always have two different
> credit cards. Because if someone does something bad with your account,
> it can take a week to get a replacement card. Or if you're traveling, no
> card until you get back home.
>
> Keep the alternate card in a different pocket :)

That's very good advice, especially when traveling. It's also generally
a good idea that your second card has no relation to your first, i.e.
get a Mastercard from a different bank if your primary is VISA.

I don't know about all of Europe, but in some places (Austria)
Mastercard seems to be more accepted then Visa.

TTYL

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[Roger, in Bangkok]

Debit cards are NOT exactly like credit cards by any stretch of the
imagination!!  Especially if it is an "Electron" Visa card, or marked "for
electronic transactions only".

Either stick with a credit card(s) where you have real protection or use
other "normal" means of transactions.  It seems that you are so focused on
having a money problem that you are almost certainly assuring yourself that
you will indeed have some kind of a problem.  Remember the old adage, "if
you go looking for trouble you're gonna find trouble".  How in the world do
you ever expect find time to enjoy your trip in any way with the presumption
that everyone is out to rob you?!

Oh yeah, you'll find that even online a lot of places will refuse your Visa
Debit card.  Check your expiration date, around here they commonly expire 15
or 25 years from the issue date ... you can't even enter that late a date in
most shopping carts!!

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Herbert Graf <mailinglist4@...>wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-08-07 at 12:35 -0700, Bob Blick wrote:
> > Agreed. The only thing I would add is to always have two different
> > credit cards. Because if someone does something bad with your account,
> > it can take a week to get a replacement card. Or if you're traveling, no
> > card until you get back home.
> >
> > Keep the alternate card in a different pocket :)
>
> That's very good advice, especially when traveling. It's also generally
> a good idea that your second card has no relation to your first, i.e.
> get a Mastercard from a different bank if your primary is VISA.
>
> I don't know about all of Europe, but in some places (Austria)
> Mastercard seems to be more accepted then Visa.
>
> TTYL
>
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[peter green-2]

> Debit cards are NOT exactly like credit cards by any stretch of the
> imagination!!  
I have never had a problem using my UK visa debit card (NOT electron). I
have used it in foreign websites though admittedly I have never tried it
in person abroad. Back when I had a maestro card on the other hand I
found there was simply no option to use
it on the foreign websites I tried.
> Especially if it is an "Electron" Visa card, or marked "for
> electronic transactions only".
>  
Yeah, solo and electron are basically cards for those who are too much
of a credit risk to give real debit cards too.
> Oh yeah, you'll find that even online a lot of places will refuse your Visa
> Debit card.  Check your expiration date, around here they commonly expire 15
> or 25 years from the issue date ... you can't even enter that late a date in
> most shopping carts!!
>  
Maybe this is a local thing, my british visa debit cards have always had
expiry dates comparable to credit cards.
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[Tomás Ó hÉilidhe-3]

Roger, in Bangkok wrote:
> Debit cards are NOT exactly like credit cards by any stretch of the
> imagination!!  Especially if it is an "Electron" Visa card, or marked "for
> electronic transactions only".
>  


Forgive me if I'm uninformed... but what I'll be getting is a plastic
card that has VISA written on it. I don't see why it should matter where
it gets its funds from. The card I'm getting is fully-fledged VISA, it's
not some sort of neutered VISA. Instead of getting a bill at the end of
the month, the funds come straight from my account.


> Either stick with a credit card(s) where you have real protection or use
> other "normal" means of transactions.  It seems that you are so focused on
> having a money problem that you are almost certainly assuring yourself that
> you will indeed have some kind of a problem.  Remember the old adage, "if
> you go looking for trouble you're gonna find trouble".  How in the world do
> you ever expect find time to enjoy your trip in any way with the presumption
> that everyone is out to rob you?!
>  


Using a credit card is sort of like eating raw meat... you'll hear about
people that do it all the time but that doesn't mean it doesn't end in
tears for a lot of people. Have you ever heard the saying that 1 in 3
people is affected by Cancer, be in themselves or a friend or family
member? Well I'd say the same thing goes for credit cards. Personally
I've heard of at least five people who've had their card misused.


> Oh yeah, you'll find that even online a lot of places will refuse your Visa
> Debit card.  Check your expiration date, around here they commonly expire 15
> or 25 years from the issue date ... you can't even enter that late a date in
> most shopping carts!!


I'll have a look at that.

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[Tomás Ó hÉilidhe-3]

Herbert Graf wrote:
> That said, I do know people who have had fraudulent transactions and
> there was no problem. They simply got their bill, noticed something
> wrong, called their card issuer, and the after a day or two the charges
> were removed. These days the issuers are more proactive, often calling
> the person asking if they made this or that transaction when something
> is not right.
>  


I'm very skeptical of that. Immediately I start thinking of ways to
abuse the system. For instance, let's say I decide to go buy a
Playstation 3 tomorrow. Then when I get my credit card bill, I'll ring
them up and say I never bought it. Brilliant. Free Playstation. This is
what leads me to think that the credit card company must at least do a
little bit of investigating. And what if there's no CCTV in the shop so
they can never verify who bought it? Sounds way too easy.

So long story short, I'm not going to spend a month of my life trying to
prove that I didn't buy 17 plasma TV's.

If someone has your credit card number, it's tantamount to giving them
your cheque book and then giving them a stamper for your signature. They
can make whatever charges they like. It's ridiculous.

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[Tomás Ó hÉilidhe-3]

peter green wrote:
> I have never had a problem using my UK visa debit card (NOT electron). I
> have used it in foreign websites though admittedly I have never tried it
> in person abroad. Back when I had a maestro card on the other hand I
> found there was simply no option to use
> it on the foreign websites I tried.

Here's what the Halifax VISA debit card looks like here in Ireland:

http://www.halifax.ie/index.jsp?1nID=94&pID=520&nID=629

In the top right corner, it says "Debit". Other than that though, it's
just like any other VISA card, it has the same numbering system and all
that jazz.

I'll go to my local branch tomorrow to ask them if I can get a card that
doesn't say Debit on it. The reason I'd like one that doesn't say Debit
on it is that I'd like to lure unscrupulous sellers into a false sense
of security. For instance, here's a hypothetical:

Let's say I go quad-biking for the day, and let's say that the
quad-biking company only accepts credit cards. Their whole idea of only
accepting credit cards is that when someone damages a quad bike, they
can willy nilly make charges to the card (e.g. a charge of 200 Euro to
repair the quad bike). I want the seller to think it's a normal credit
card so that they'll think they have me by the balls, I want them to
think that they can make outrageous charges to my card whenever they want.

Then when they try to make a charge... "Insufficient Funds".

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[Tomás Ó hÉilidhe-3]

Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>> So if my card gets robbed or skimmed or anything, there's nothing
>> the thieves can do with it because my current account is empty.
>>    
>
> You are correct to a point, but such thieves are adept at deciding what the
> floor limit for a shop is (the value below which they do not need to get
> authorisation from Visa - it is automatic authorisation), and spending below
> that limit.
>  


I hadn't heard about this "floor limit" thingie. Interestingly though,
here's some info I got from the net, it's to do with VISA cards:

The first digit indicates if a card can be used internationally or is
valid for domestic use only. It is also used to signal if the card is
chip-enabled. The second digit indicates if the transaction must be sent
online for authorization always (“X2X”) or if transactions that are
below floor limit can take place without authorization (“X0X”). The
third digit is used to indicate the preferred card verification method
(e.g. PIN) and the environment where the card can be used (e.g. at point
of sale only).

Presumably, these debit cards are "X2X", but I'll make sure with my bank.


> So you could still have considerable debts run up on the card because these
> transactions will get charged to you, even with no money in the account.
>
> It is still necessary for you to very promptly let your bank know that the
> card has been stolen, for them to stop such charges appearing on your
> account.


Tomorrow I'm going to my bank and I'm going to have a very stern talk
with them. I'm going to tell them to disable any and all overdrafts. I'm
going to tell them to disable any sort of "automatic fund transfer" from
my savings account to my current account. Also I'm going to get a
straight answer out of them as to what exactly happens when a
transaction can't be complete (e.g. do I get charged 2 Euro for bad
transactions?).

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[Roger, in Bangkok]

Perhaps you don't read the user agreements before signing them;-))

It's safer to stay inside, lock the doors and don't let anyone in ...

RiB

On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Tomás Ó hÉilidhe <toe_list@...>wrote:

> Roger, in Bangkok wrote:
> > ...
> >
>
>
> Forgive me if I'm uninformed... but what I'll be getting is a plastic
> card that has VISA written on it. I don't see why it should matter where
> it gets its funds from. The card I'm getting is fully-fledged VISA, it's
> not some sort of neutered VISA. Instead of getting a bill at the end of
> the month, the funds come straight from my account.
>
>
> > ...
> >
>
>
> Using a credit card is sort of like eating raw meat... you'll hear about
> people that do it all the time but that doesn't mean it doesn't end in
> tears for a lot of people. Have you ever heard the saying that 1 in 3
> people is affected by Cancer, be in themselves or a friend or family
> member? Well I'd say the same thing goes for credit cards. Personally
> I've heard of at least five people who've had their card misused.
>
>
> > ...
>
>
>

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[peter green-2]

> I'll go to my local branch tomorrow to ask them if I can get a card that
> doesn't say Debit on it.
>  
I very much doubt you will be able to.
> Then when they try to make a charge... "Insufficient Funds".
>  
If you are lucky

If you are unlucky the charge will go through and you will get hit with
an unauthorised overdraft fee.

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