PFC-30 Reinstallation problem

[dave cover-2]

To all you Manzanita Micro fans, I have a dilema. I have a pack of 142
BB600s in my car and I'm just finishing up reinstalling everything. Last
year, before I took it all apart I had 144 BB600s. I had to move some to
another location and fit all but two cells in the new location. Last year
the PFC-30 worked fine charging the pack. Now, when I try and charge it runs
fine for a minute or two and then trips the breaker.

Before firing up the charger the pack was at 170 volts. BB600's are usually
flat at 1 volt per cell, charged at 1.2 volts per cell, and charging voltage
can easily go to 1.55 volts per cell or higher. So the pack was not dead,
even though it sat a while.

When I first fired up the PFC, the voltage rose like normal, up to around
189 volts. One odd clue is that my eMeter shows the correct voltage, but
doesn't show any charge current. When I fired it up I had the charge knob
turned down, but when I turned it up it had no effect on the charge current.
I have a twisted pair running directly from the shunt to the eMeter, no
breaks or connections. I think the eMeter is correct but have no other way
to measure current?

On top of it all I have an appointment with Motor Vehicle tomorrow and I'd
really like to have a bit more of a charge on the pack before then.

What kind of things could cause the PFC to trip my breaker? What might
prevent the charge current from ramping up? Are there any debug codes I can
read from the charger?  (No, I don't have any RegBus.)

It is a GFCI breaker, but never tripped before. It works fine with my
welder.

Thanks

Dave Cover
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[Joe Downing-2]

Assuming the DC gound wire is grounded to the chassis, verify you don't have a voltage leak to the chassis. Measure your voltage using a multimeter from most positive to chassis ground.

The first time I plugged into a GFCI, I had that problem with my PFC20. My pack consists of T125 floodies. I found the wet dirty battery and moist insulation...cleaned it up and installed some polypropelene as an additional barrier in my battery box.

JD


--- On Thu, 5/15/08, dave cover <davecover@...> wrote:

> From: dave cover <davecover@...>
> Subject: [EVDL] PFC-30 Reinstallation problem
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Date: Thursday, May 15, 2008, 12:11 PM
> To all you Manzanita Micro fans, I have a dilema. I have a
> pack of 142
> BB600s in my car and I'm just finishing up reinstalling
> everything. Last
> year, before I took it all apart I had 144 BB600s. I had to
> move some to
> another location and fit all but two cells in the new
> location. Last year
> the PFC-30 worked fine charging the pack. Now, when I try
> and charge it runs
> fine for a minute or two and then trips the breaker.
>
> Before firing up the charger the pack was at 170 volts.
> BB600's are usually
> flat at 1 volt per cell, charged at 1.2 volts per cell, and
> charging voltage
> can easily go to 1.55 volts per cell or higher. So the pack
> was not dead,
> even though it sat a while.
>
> When I first fired up the PFC, the voltage rose like
> normal, up to around
> 189 volts. One odd clue is that my eMeter shows the correct
> voltage, but
> doesn't show any charge current. When I fired it up I
> had the charge knob
> turned down, but when I turned it up it had no effect on
> the charge current.
> I have a twisted pair running directly from the shunt to
> the eMeter, no
> breaks or connections. I think the eMeter is correct but
> have no other way
> to measure current?
>
> On top of it all I have an appointment with Motor Vehicle
> tomorrow and I'd
> really like to have a bit more of a charge on the pack
> before then.
>
> What kind of things could cause the PFC to trip my breaker?
> What might
> prevent the charge current from ramping up? Are there any
> debug codes I can
> read from the charger?  (No, I don't have any RegBus.)
>
> It is a GFCI breaker, but never tripped before. It works
> fine with my
> welder.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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[dave cover-2]

Wellllll, I don't believe my PFC is grounded to the chassis. IIRC when I was
installing it the first time there was an ongoing discussion about isolated
chargers, grounding etc. and I ended up not attaching the green wire. One
theory was that you could get zapped if you were leaning against the car and
touched the wrong thing.

My front battery box is the new one and shouldn't have and leakage yet. The
cells sit on fiberglass I beams and there is chloroplast on all four
side. The lid is not in place. The rear battery boxes have been dry for a
while and they are constructed out of plywood and fiberglass with the inside
coated with a chemical proof rubberized coating. I'll check for leakage
right away.

Also, the PFC doesn't trip the breaker right away, it takes a minute or two.
And why doesn't the AMPS knob have any affect on charging? Does the charger
go through some safety checks first before deciding to charge? Is it working
real hard to do something, can't quite get started, and then the breaker
trips?
Thanks for the reply

Dave Cover, chargeless in CT


On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Joe Downing <jjddown@...> wrote:

> Assuming the DC gound wire is grounded to the chassis, verify you don't
> have a voltage leak to the chassis. Measure your voltage using a multimeter
> from most positive to chassis ground.
>
> The first time I plugged into a GFCI, I had that problem with my PFC20. My
> pack consists of T125 floodies. I found the wet dirty battery and moist
> insulation...cleaned it up and installed some polypropelene as an additional
> barrier in my battery box.
>
> JD
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/15/08, dave cover <davecover@...> wrote:
>
> > From: dave cover <davecover@...>
> > Subject: [EVDL] PFC-30 Reinstallation problem
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> > Date: Thursday, May 15, 2008, 12:11 PM
>  > To all you Manzanita Micro fans, I have a dilema. I have a
> > pack of 142
> > BB600s in my car and I'm just finishing up reinstalling
> > everything. Last
> > year, before I took it all apart I had 144 BB600s. I had to
> > move some to
> > another location and fit all but two cells in the new
> > location. Last year
> > the PFC-30 worked fine charging the pack. Now, when I try
> > and charge it runs
> > fine for a minute or two and then trips the breaker.
> >
> > Before firing up the charger the pack was at 170 volts.
> > BB600's are usually
> > flat at 1 volt per cell, charged at 1.2 volts per cell, and
> > charging voltage
> > can easily go to 1.55 volts per cell or higher. So the pack
> > was not dead,
> > even though it sat a while.
> >
> > When I first fired up the PFC, the voltage rose like
> > normal, up to around
> > 189 volts. One odd clue is that my eMeter shows the correct
> > voltage, but
> > doesn't show any charge current. When I fired it up I
> > had the charge knob
> > turned down, but when I turned it up it had no effect on
> > the charge current.
> > I have a twisted pair running directly from the shunt to
> > the eMeter, no
> > breaks or connections. I think the eMeter is correct but
> > have no other way
> > to measure current?
> >
> > On top of it all I have an appointment with Motor Vehicle
> > tomorrow and I'd
> > really like to have a bit more of a charge on the pack
> > before then.
> >
> > What kind of things could cause the PFC to trip my breaker?
> > What might
> > prevent the charge current from ramping up? Are there any
> > debug codes I can
> > read from the charger?  (No, I don't have any RegBus.)
> >
> > It is a GFCI breaker, but never tripped before. It works
> > fine with my
> > welder.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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[Roland Wiench]

Hello Dave,

To check to see if the charger is putting out any current, put a voltmeter
in the 50 to 100 ma scale and attach the leads in parallel to the shunt, at
the same place the Emeter sense leads come off.

If it still reads 0 amperes, then the problem is in the charger or battery
connections.  If you read any ampere, but not at the Emeter than it may be
the wiring or Emeter.

To do the following battery test, I use a insulated rubber blanket (or use
1/8 neoprene rubber sheets to drape over your working are.  Remove any metal
you are wearing and stand on a insulated floor. Always have a second person
in the area.

To check the battery connections, you place the leads in parallel with any
one of the battery links while the charger is on. Place on the same link
connection only. Connect the leads on the battery post, not the battery
clamp or connection.

One lead on the positive end of that link, and one lead on the negative end
of the same link.

If the battery charger is charging normal and lets say the reading on may
link connections read 0.001 amps and you found one that reads 0.005, then
that connection may have to be clean and tighten.

Next, you check the voltage of each battery while the charger is on.  If you
find one that is lower than the rest of the cells, then its either a bad
cell or high resistance connection.

You say, you are connected to a GFCI C/B. This must be down line from the
PFC C/B which is a standard built in C/B.  Sometimes the power cord
connections, receptacles and circuit breaker wire connections may have a
high resistance.  The first thing a electrical work does, it to tried to
reset the GFCI C/B and try again.

If this does not work, then turn off the breaker, pull the circuit breaker
panel covers.  If this C/B is a push in type, then pull it out by inserting
a plastic type putty knife in the center grove and roll out the circuit
break and inspect the C/B connection to the panel buss bars.

Sometimes these will get loose and cause a circuit breaker to open. There
may be arc marks on these connections where the connections were loose.
Spring the connections tighter together and reinstall the C/B.  Then tighten
up all the wire connections from this GFCI C/B all the way to the charger.

And try turning on the charger again.  If this trips the GFCI C/B again try
this circuit on a standard breaker to see what happens.

If the charger works, then it's a bad GFCI C/B, if not then I would contact
Rich Rudman at Manzanita Micro

Roland








----- Original Message -----
From: "dave cover" <davecover@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: [EVDL] PFC-30 Reinstallation problem

> To all you Manzanita Micro fans, I have a dilema. I have a pack of 142
> BB600s in my car and I'm just finishing up reinstalling everything. Last
> year, before I took it all apart I had 144 BB600s. I had to move some to
> another location and fit all but two cells in the new location. Last year
> the PFC-30 worked fine charging the pack. Now, when I try and charge it
> runs
> fine for a minute or two and then trips the breaker.
>
> Before firing up the charger the pack was at 170 volts. BB600's are
> usually
> flat at 1 volt per cell, charged at 1.2 volts per cell, and charging
> voltage
> can easily go to 1.55 volts per cell or higher. So the pack was not dead,
> even though it sat a while.
>
> When I first fired up the PFC, the voltage rose like normal, up to around
> 189 volts. One odd clue is that my eMeter shows the correct voltage, but
> doesn't show any charge current. When I fired it up I had the charge knob
> turned down, but when I turned it up it had no effect on the charge
> current.
> I have a twisted pair running directly from the shunt to the eMeter, no
> breaks or connections. I think the eMeter is correct but have no other way
> to measure current?
>
> On top of it all I have an appointment with Motor Vehicle tomorrow and I'd
> really like to have a bit more of a charge on the pack before then.
>
> What kind of things could cause the PFC to trip my breaker? What might
> prevent the charge current from ramping up? Are there any debug codes I
> can
> read from the charger?  (No, I don't have any RegBus.)
>
> It is a GFCI breaker, but never tripped before. It works fine with my
> welder.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[dave cover-2]

Well, after measuring and disconnecting and testing, it turns out it's
probably the prescaler form my eMeter. Guess I charge by the seat of my
pants for a while. Time to look for an eMeter replacement? Anyone have
someting that will monitor how many amp hours I've taken out of the pack and
tell the PFC when it's put them all back (plus a little more)?
Thanks

Dave Cover
On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Roland Wiench <ev_7@...> wrote:

> Hello Dave,
>
> To check to see if the charger is putting out any current, put a voltmeter
> in the 50 to 100 ma scale and attach the leads in parallel to the shunt, at
> the same place the Emeter sense leads come off.
>
> If it still reads 0 amperes, then the problem is in the charger or battery
> connections.  If you read any ampere, but not at the Emeter than it may be
> the wiring or Emeter.
>
> To do the following battery test, I use a insulated rubber blanket (or use
> 1/8 neoprene rubber sheets to drape over your working are.  Remove any
> metal
> you are wearing and stand on a insulated floor. Always have a second person
> in the area.
>
> To check the battery connections, you place the leads in parallel with any
> one of the battery links while the charger is on. Place on the same link
> connection only. Connect the leads on the battery post, not the battery
> clamp or connection.
>
> One lead on the positive end of that link, and one lead on the negative end
> of the same link.
>
> If the battery charger is charging normal and lets say the reading on may
> link connections read 0.001 amps and you found one that reads 0.005, then
> that connection may have to be clean and tighten.
>
> Next, you check the voltage of each battery while the charger is on.  If
> you
> find one that is lower than the rest of the cells, then its either a bad
> cell or high resistance connection.
>
> You say, you are connected to a GFCI C/B. This must be down line from the
> PFC C/B which is a standard built in C/B.  Sometimes the power cord
> connections, receptacles and circuit breaker wire connections may have a
> high resistance.  The first thing a electrical work does, it to tried to
> reset the GFCI C/B and try again.
>
> If this does not work, then turn off the breaker, pull the circuit breaker
> panel covers.  If this C/B is a push in type, then pull it out by inserting
> a plastic type putty knife in the center grove and roll out the circuit
> break and inspect the C/B connection to the panel buss bars.
>
> Sometimes these will get loose and cause a circuit breaker to open. There
> may be arc marks on these connections where the connections were loose.
> Spring the connections tighter together and reinstall the C/B.  Then
> tighten
> up all the wire connections from this GFCI C/B all the way to the charger.
>
> And try turning on the charger again.  If this trips the GFCI C/B again try
> this circuit on a standard breaker to see what happens.
>
> If the charger works, then it's a bad GFCI C/B, if not then I would contact
> Rich Rudman at Manzanita Micro
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dave cover" <davecover@...>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
> Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:11 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] PFC-30 Reinstallation problem
>
>
>  > To all you Manzanita Micro fans, I have a dilema. I have a pack of 142
> > BB600s in my car and I'm just finishing up reinstalling everything. Last
> > year, before I took it all apart I had 144 BB600s. I had to move some to
> > another location and fit all but two cells in the new location. Last year
> > the PFC-30 worked fine charging the pack. Now, when I try and charge it
> > runs
> > fine for a minute or two and then trips the breaker.
> >
> > Before firing up the charger the pack was at 170 volts. BB600's are
> > usually
> > flat at 1 volt per cell, charged at 1.2 volts per cell, and charging
> > voltage
> > can easily go to 1.55 volts per cell or higher. So the pack was not dead,
> > even though it sat a while.
> >
> > When I first fired up the PFC, the voltage rose like normal, up to around
> > 189 volts. One odd clue is that my eMeter shows the correct voltage, but
> > doesn't show any charge current. When I fired it up I had the charge knob
> > turned down, but when I turned it up it had no effect on the charge
> > current.
> > I have a twisted pair running directly from the shunt to the eMeter, no
> > breaks or connections. I think the eMeter is correct but have no other
> way
> > to measure current?
> >
> > On top of it all I have an appointment with Motor Vehicle tomorrow and
> I'd
> > really like to have a bit more of a charge on the pack before then.
> >
> > What kind of things could cause the PFC to trip my breaker? What might
> > prevent the charge current from ramping up? Are there any debug codes I
> > can
> > read from the charger?  (No, I don't have any RegBus.)
> >
> > It is a GFCI breaker, but never tripped before. It works fine with my
> > welder.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
>  > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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[Roger Stockton]

dave cover wrote:

> Well, after measuring and disconnecting and testing, it turns
> out it's probably the prescaler form my eMeter. Guess I
> charge by the seat of my pants for a while. Time to look for
> an eMeter replacement? Anyone have someting that will monitor
> how many amp hours I've taken out of the pack and tell the
> PFC when it's put them all back (plus a little more)?

Bad news, though it sounds as if you realise that already.  You reported that the E-meter wasn't showing current into the pack, but the prescaler affects only the E-meter's voltage readings... unless it fails such that the meter gets fried.

Cheers,

Roger.

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[Roland Wiench]

Hello Dave,

For now while you are waiting for a new Emeter, I would dial in the maximum
charge voltage with the PFC and turn the timer all the way down or shut the
charger off at that point.

When you are at the maximum voltage, you should be at or just above 95
percent charge. I normally charge this way weekly and about once a month to
do a finish charge.

If you know what the specific gravity of these batteries should be at 100%,
then you could test them out at different times after you turn off the
charger.

Roland

----- Original Message -----
From: "dave cover" <davecover@...>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PFC-30 Reinstallation problem

> Well, after measuring and disconnecting and testing, it turns out it's
> probably the prescaler form my eMeter. Guess I charge by the seat of my
> pants for a while. Time to look for an eMeter replacement? Anyone have
> someting that will monitor how many amp hours I've taken out of the pack
> and
> tell the PFC when it's put them all back (plus a little more)?
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>

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http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

[storm connors]

I am confused as to whether your problem is no amps or the GFI
tripping. Roland gave you two alternate ways to measure amperage with
your VM. (Checking voltage drop over a shunt or battery connection
acting as a shunt.) If the problem is the GFI, I'd test by plugging
into 2 to 3 prong adapter with the ground wire not connected. This
would tell if it is a leakage to ground somewhere. The GFI still works
without the ground connected.


--
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1059
http://stormselectric.blogspot.com/
Storm

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