PCB Mill kit for $700?
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PCB Mill kit for $700?
by James Newtons Massmind
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Would you buy a kit of parts, partially assembled, that could make a viable CNC mill / drill for PCBs (10mill traces and spaces, 9" x 11" work area) given your own spindle (laminate router or dremel), PC (new or old) and a power supply (car battery and charger or another old PC) for the grand price of $700? This would require simple bolting together of the mechanical parts, all the hard stuff is done. The controller boards must be built (standard thru hole soldering) and connected (cabled) to a distribution / mode setting / logic power regulator board (also standard thru hold soldering. If you like pictures or more detail, I'm talking about one of these http://www.fireballcnc.com/ with 3 of these: http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/index.htm 3 of these: <http://www.motionking.com/show_products_detail.asp?ID=10&fenlei_id=2&produc ts=23HS%20Stepping%20Motor%20-57mm(1.8%20degree)> the 23HS8603 3 of these http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=CMI-28-2S&cat=FAN and one of these http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/4axis2build.htm You add the PC, the software (many choices TurboCNC is great for old DOS boxes, Mach3 is good for new machines) Anyway, the upshot is that for $700 plus a bit of work and some parts you probably already have or can get for cheap, you would be able to mill and drill PCBs (or wood, plastic, etc...) at home. Would that sell? James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin mailto:jamesnewton@... 1-619-652-0593 phone http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by Chris Smolinski
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I actually put together my own little CNC machine a year ago. I
bought a Harbor Freight Micro Mill ($269), and then got 3 steppers and a driver board (Xylotex). I'm using an old P3 Dell, running the EMC software under linux. Right now I am using it to cut holes in plastic enclosures, mostly doing D-SUB cutouts. I've considered using it to make some proto PCB boards, but haven't gotten around to doing that, yet. -- --- Chris Smolinski Black Cat Systems http://www.blackcatsystems.com -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by SM Ling
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>
> Would you buy a kit of parts, partially assembled, that could make a > viable > CNC mill / drill for PCBs (10mill traces and spaces, 9" x 11" work area) > given your own spindle (laminate router or dremel), PC (new or old) and a > power supply (car battery and charger or another old PC) for the grand > price > of $700? > CNC mill/drill is always on my to-buy list. For $700, guess it shall need a bit more research and comparison, and excuses. The internet also open many avenues to use my hobbies fund, so this shall have to compete with eeePC, K3, etc, but will be Considered. Cheers, Ling SM PS: Just loaded up a Degen DE103 after watching amateurlogic.tv -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by Chris Smolinski
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I bought a mounting kit from cncfusion. Assembly went fairly smooth,
I did have some binding in the z-axis due to a misalignment error on my part. I'm not doing any heavy work (other than machining some aluminum mounting jigs) so I don't have a counterweight for the z-axis. >What did you do to adapt the steppers to the axis drive screws? > >-Adam > >On 12/17/07, Chris Smolinski <csmolinski@...> wrote: >> I actually put together my own little CNC machine a year ago. I >> bought a Harbor Freight Micro Mill ($269), and then got 3 steppers >> and a driver board (Xylotex). I'm using an old P3 Dell, running the >> EMC software under linux. >> >> Right now I am using it to cut holes in plastic enclosures, mostly >> doing D-SUB cutouts. I've considered using it to make some proto PCB > > boards, but haven't gotten around to doing that, yet. > > -- --- Chris Smolinski Black Cat Systems http://www.blackcatsystems.com -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by Timothy J. Weber-2
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James Newton wrote:
> Would you buy a kit of parts, partially assembled, that could make a viable > CNC mill / drill for PCBs (10mill traces and spaces, 9" x 11" work area) > given your own spindle (laminate router or dremel), PC (new or old) and a > power supply (car battery and charger or another old PC) for the grand price > of $700? I would if I saw photos of PCBs and positive comments from people who've used it successfully to do PCBs. That is - I don't have a lot of metalworking or even woodworking tools, and I don't need a new hobby, so I'm most interested in something that's a complete kit (even if some of the parts are not included, but the source is clear) that Just Works. For instance, I've heard that really effective hold-down systems for PCB board are not trivial. I don't want a new project called "design and make a board fixture"; I'd prefer to buy it as part of a whole system that people have had success with. But I have no idea if I'm typical! :) -- Timothy J. Weber http://timothyweber.org -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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USB Descriptor etc.
by Andre Abelian-3
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Hi to all,
I like to learn more about USB and I like to have correct tools in hand to get USB analyzed and all necessary changes if needed. So far I am using CCS C example and doing changes to make it work. The problem is I do not clearly understand about the descriptor how is it put together. I have 1. HID descriptor software from USB.ORG never made any thing done yet 2. I have USB viewer to view output data Very useful 3. Friend of mine has HIDmaker that makes CCS C code but it doesn't enumerate it works for PIC basic but not C. any info about usb, descriptor etc. will appreciate thank you Andre -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by Dwayne Reid
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We've had very good success with an extremely trivial hold-down
system for milling PCB's: 3M transfer tape (otherwise known as "gummy back"). This is an adhesive tape that is pure adhesive only - no substrate / carrier. Our transfer tape is 2" wide. Simply run a strip or two down the backside of the PCB and stick it in place. The tape "rolls" off easily after the finished PCB has been pried up from the deck of the machine. Takes a lot of effort to get the PCB up and off but that's the price we pay for ensuring that the board stays flat while milling. dwayne PS - again, this is on my buddy Ryan's machine. I'm slowly building an equivalent system (sort of) for myself. dwayne At 09:53 AM 12/17/2007, Timothy Weber wrote: >For instance, I've heard that really effective hold-down systems for PCB >board are not trivial. I don't want a new project called "design and >make a board fixture"; -- Dwayne Reid <dwayner@...> Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA (780) 489-3199 voice (780) 487-6397 fax www.trinity-electronics.com Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by 556RECON
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<snip>
> >For instance, I've heard that really effective hold-down systems for PCB >board are not trivial. I don't want a new project called "design and >make a board fixture"; I'd prefer to buy it as part of a whole system >that people have had success with. > >But I have no idea if I'm typical! :) > > A gentleman I know was routing and drilling different plastics. 1/16 (.0625" 1.6 mm) and thicker. He had a 12 X 18 " (305 mm X 458mm) useable table area. He just used a shop vacuum cleaner to hold the peices down. some other peices of plastic to cover the unused areas and you are set. Recon -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by John Coppens
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:32:50 -0800
"James Newton" <jamesnewton@...> wrote: > Would that sell? I wonder why the controller seems to use linear control (with large cooling fins) for the stepper. Wouldn't a PWM switcher be more efficient, and maybe the fans wouldn't even be needed? (I hate fans) John -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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RE: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by James Newtons Massmind
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What was your actual total cost? After the driver board, steppers, etc...
-----Original Message----- From: piclist-bounces@... [mailto:piclist-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Chris Smolinski Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 07:40 To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: Re: [AD] PCB Mill kit for $700? I actually put together my own little CNC machine a year ago. I bought a Harbor Freight Micro Mill ($269), and then got 3 steppers and a driver board (Xylotex). I'm using an old P3 Dell, running the EMC software under linux. Right now I am using it to cut holes in plastic enclosures, mostly doing D-SUB cutouts. I've considered using it to make some proto PCB boards, but haven't gotten around to doing that, yet. -- --- Chris Smolinski Black Cat Systems http://www.blackcatsystems.com -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by Tobias Gogolin
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Yes and what about software?
A good product would also come with some program to control the motors or something to generate CNC programs from Gerber and Drill files! Mentioning that I could probably have my friends at the machine shop cut me a PCB if I brought drill bits and program for not more than a sixpack! Which brings me to the question: how do I translate Gerber to CNC? On Dec 17, 2007 9:40 AM, Funny NYPD <funnynypd@...> wrote: > This sure is a great idea. Even better if a pre-assembled turn-key machine > is offered with this price. > > Funny N. > New Bedford, MA > http://www.AuElectronics.selfip.com > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: James Newton <jamesnewton@...> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclist@...> > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 10:32:50 AM > Subject: [AD] PCB Mill kit for $700? > > > Would you buy a kit of parts, partially assembled, that could make a > viable > CNC mill / drill for PCBs (10mill traces and spaces, 9" x 11" work area) > given your own spindle (laminate router or dremel), PC (new or old) and a > power supply (car battery and charger or another old PC) for the grand > price > of $700? > > This would require simple bolting together of the mechanical parts, all > the > hard stuff is done. The controller boards must be built (standard thru > hole > soldering) and connected (cabled) to a distribution / mode setting / logic > power regulator board (also standard thru hold soldering. > > If you like pictures or more detail, I'm talking about one of these > http://www.fireballcnc.com/ > with 3 of these: > http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/index.htm > 3 of these: > < > http://www.motionking.com/show_products_detail.asp?ID=10&fenlei_id=2&produc > ts=23HS%20Stepping%20Motor%20-57mm(1.8%20degree)<http://www.motionking.com/show_products_detail.asp?ID=10&fenlei_id=2&products=23HS%20Stepping%20Motor%20-57mm%281.8%20degree%29>> > the 23HS8603 > 3 of these > http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=CMI-28-2S&cat=FAN > and one of these > http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/4axis2build.htm > > You add the PC, the software (many choices TurboCNC is great for old DOS > boxes, Mach3 is good for new machines) > > Anyway, the upshot is that for $700 plus a bit of work and some parts you > probably already have or can get for cheap, you would be able to mill and > drill PCBs (or wood, plastic, etc...) at home. > > Would that sell? > > James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin > mailto:jamesnewton@... 1-619-652-0593 phone > http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786 > PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com > > > -- > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > -- > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive > View/change your membership options at > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist > -- Tobias Gogolin cel. (646) 124 32 82 skype: moontogo messenger: usertogo@... You develop an open source motor controller at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoBox -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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RE: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by James Newtons Massmind
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Incoming... ;) This IS already marked AD...
BIG SYSTEM: CHOPPER / LOW INDUCTANCE MOTOR A large system with a big motor needs a chopper because a linear controller simply can not manage the heat, and the physically larger motors typically can. This is even more true with low inductance, high current motors. SMALL SYSTEM / HIGH INDUCTANCE MOTOR CHOPPER (COOL) = HOT MOTOR In a small system, if you use a chopper, that will work just fine, but the motor will get hot. Some people doubt this statement, but I have documentation from several users that it is very much the case. It is as a result of eddy currents from the chopped signal in the motor windings. The problem is worse with high inductance motors, since they "filter" more of the PWM signal and so generate more heat. LINISTEPPER (HOT) = COOL MOTOR A small LINEAR driver produces smooth analog signals into the motor which do NOT get lost in eddy currents and so the motor runs much cooler. As one customer said, "...once I switched to a chopper driver all that heat that used to be on linisteppers just transferred to motors themselves!" That quote is from a user who was running steppers pulled from old LaserJet printers. Those are high inductance motors commonly available in that sort of equipment. It should also be noted that linear controllers only get hot when doing micro-stepping, so the linistepper controller mentioned originally will run only slightly warm in full or half step mode. LINISTEPPER=SMOOTHER In micro-step mode, not only does the micro-stepping controller smooth out the signals, but they are also smoothed by a small RC network just before the power transistors. Choppers can't do that. The result is noticeably smoother movement, given a system that can actually see the difference mechanically. In most systems, the slop is more than the difference between the linistepper and a good chopper, but you can HEAR the difference: A chopper driven motor buzzes or whines. That should make sense as the PWM signal is in the audio range and the motor windings make the shaft into a speaker. The linistepper driven motor is much quieter and has a sort of singing sound to it. LINISTEPPER=STRONGER That buzzing is from the AC signals in the motor causing it to (very slightly) vibrate. If the motor is just on the edge of missing a step, and the chopper vibrates it back just enough, it will miss. The linistepper causes less vibration and as a result, the motors are less likely to miss-step. Lots of people really question this assertion but I've seen it myself with my own motors. Running torque (not holding) goes up a few percent between the linistepper and another comparably priced chopper (whose will remain nameless, for personal reasons). But more than that, customers report the same findings. E.g. "Linistepper "sounds" sweeter and it seems it runs faster as well before stalling. This is strange as I always thought a chopper would go faster and stall higher up in the rev range." Also, when a motor on a chopper drive gets hot enough, the magnetic strength will be affected by the heat, and power is again lost. Yes, the Linistepper gets hot. But it is easier to control that heat with a big heat-sink or a heat-sink / fan combo than it is to control the same heat in the motor. P4 coolers are about $5 a pop. http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/index.htm BTW, we are raising the price $5 after the end of this year. Order NOW! ;) -- James. -----Original Message----- From: piclist-bounces@... [mailto:piclist-bounces@...] On Behalf Of John Coppens Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 13:25 To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. Subject: Re: [AD] PCB Mill kit for $700? On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:32:50 -0800 "James Newton" <jamesnewton@...> wrote: > Would that sell? I wonder why the controller seems to use linear control (with large cooling fins) for the stepper. Wouldn't a PWM switcher be more efficient, and maybe the fans wouldn't even be needed? (I hate fans) John -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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Re: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by William "Chops" Westfield
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> really effective hold-down systems for PCB > board are not trivial Especially if it also has to do registration so that you can separately mill both sides of a double-sided PCB and have them line up... The video demo bugs me a bit. Where's the swarf? I've mentioned before that I have a LPKF PCB plotter. It's got some pretty serious limitations. Looking at the differences between it and the "hobby class" CNC machines makes me pretty skeptical of the hobby- class CNC machine's ability to mill PCBs. LPKF has some pretty expensive software that they use for the gerber->mill path conversion, but EAGLE will do some more primitive "outlining" for you... BillW -- http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist |
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RE: PCB Mill kit for $700?
by Chris Smolinski
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$269 for the mill (they go on sale on a regular basis).
$265 for the conversion kit from CNC Fusion (motor mounts, other hardware) $345 for the three steppers and driver board from Xylotex Plus a P3 Dell I had laying around. I installed EMC from a live CD, which also installed ubuntu. That was pretty painless, except you need at least 512M to do the install. Throw in $50 or so for some used end mills from eBay. Also spent about $60 for some hunks of aluminum that I have used to make jigs to hold small plastic endplates for enclosures, which is what I am using the machine for 99% of the time. >What was your actual total cost? After the driver board, steppers, etc... > >-----Original Message----- >From: piclist-bounces@... [mailto:piclist-bounces@...] On Behalf Of >Chris Smolinski >Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 07:40 >To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. >Subject: Re: [AD] PCB Mill kit for $700? > >I actually put together my own little CNC machine a year ago. I >bought a Harbor Freight Micro Mill ($269), and then got 3 steppers >and a driver board (Xylotex). I'm using an old P3 Dell, running the >EMC software under linux. > >Right |
