Move mailinglist (suggestions requested)

[Jan Wielemaker]

Hi,

The University is planning to reorganise the mail infrastructure and as
a result prolog@... will disappear. There are some options

    * Move to surfnet.nl, the general dutch academic internet
    infrastructure, which can provide a mailinglist using listserv
    with a web archive and list management frontend.  This appears to
    be a stable supplier.

    * Move to sourceforge, google code, etc.  Experience?  Suggestions?

    * Other ...

Some issues: forum or mailinglist? Note that nabble and gmane already
provide a forum frontend to the mailinglist. When this issue was raised
long ago there was strong resistance against using a forum. On the other
hand, I guess there is forum software that can be used comfortably
through mail as well.

Most important points as far as I'm concerned is stability, not too
sensitive to spam, automatic (un)subscribe and archiving.  A list server
must allow for something like [SWIPL] to facilitate search and filtering.

        Thanks --- Jan


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[Guillaume Piolle]

Hello Jan,

I'm not very active on the list but I read it frequently.

I would rather keep SWIPL a mailing list rather than a forum, or at least a forum that would allow us to subscribe to (properly working) RSS feeds : I think we should be able to receive the info instead of fetching it.
This is only a user's point of view, I have no opinion about the technology or provider used.

Thanks for maintaining this list, and have fun with this reorganization ;-)
Guillaume

Jan Wielemaker a écrit :

Hi,

The University is planning to reorganise the mail infrastructure and as
a result prolog@... will disappear. There are some options

    * Move to surfnet.nl, the general dutch academic internet
    infrastructure, which can provide a mailinglist using listserv
    with a web archive and list management frontend.  This appears to
    be a stable supplier.

    * Move to sourceforge, google code, etc.  Experience?  Suggestions?

    * Other ...

Some issues: forum or mailinglist? Note that nabble and gmane already
provide a forum frontend to the mailinglist. When this issue was raised
long ago there was strong resistance against using a forum. On the other
hand, I guess there is forum software that can be used comfortably
through mail as well.

Most important points as far as I'm concerned is stability, not too
sensitive to spam, automatic (un)subscribe and archiving.  A list server
must allow for something like [SWIPL] to facilitate search and filtering.

	Thanks --- Jan


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[Zsolt G. Kiss-2]

The advantage of using a forum is that you are not bothered with an e-mail for each posting, in a topic where you might not have been interested (digest is sg else.) It is straightforward to see only the topics you are interested in (well, you can achieve sg close to this using a mail filter, but you don't see nicely all contributions to a thread.

What is not so straightforward in a forum is to quote, or to archive to the local disk (but you have the server archives, at least for some time...)

If it will be a forum, I prefer an English-speaking interface:)

regards,
   Zsolt

On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Jan Wielemaker <wielemak@...> wrote:

Hi,

The University is planning to reorganise the mail infrastructure and as
a result prolog@... will disappear. There are some options

   * Move to surfnet.nl, the general dutch academic internet
   infrastructure, which can provide a mailinglist using listserv
   with a web archive and list management frontend.  This appears to
   be a stable supplier.

   * Move to sourceforge, google code, etc.  Experience?  Suggestions?

   * Other ...

Some issues: forum or mailinglist? Note that nabble and gmane already
provide a forum frontend to the mailinglist. When this issue was raised
long ago there was strong resistance against using a forum. On the other
hand, I guess there is forum software that can be used comfortably
through mail as well.

Most important points as far as I'm concerned is stability, not too
sensitive to spam, automatic (un)subscribe and archiving.  A list server
must allow for something like [SWIPL] to facilitate search and filtering.

       Thanks --- Jan


------------
For further info, please visit http://www.swi-prolog.org/

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--
Üdv,
Zsolt

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gyakran elhangzik, hogy meg kell menteni a Földet - pedig nem a Föld van veszélyben, hanem mi."

[Alan Baljeu]

The Protege people use a good mailing list system.

 Alan Baljeu
http://www.collaborative-systems.org
Intelligent software that works _with_ you.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jan Wielemaker <wielemak@...>
To: prolog@...
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:41:14 AM
Subject: [SWIPL] Move mailinglist (suggestions requested)

Hi,

The University is planning to reorganise the mail infrastructure and as
a result prolog@... will disappear. There are some options

    * Move to surfnet.nl, the general dutch academic internet
    infrastructure, which can provide a mailinglist using listserv
    with a web archive and list management frontend.  This appears to
    be a stable supplier.

    * Move to sourceforge, google code, etc.  Experience?  Suggestions?

    * Other ...

Some issues: forum or mailinglist? Note that nabble and gmane already
provide a forum frontend to the mailinglist. When this issue was raised
long ago there was strong resistance against using a forum. On the other
hand, I guess there is forum software that can be used comfortably
through mail as well.

Most important points as far as I'm concerned is stability, not too
sensitive to spam, automatic (un)subscribe and archiving.  A list server
must allow for something like [SWIPL] to facilitate search and filtering.

    Thanks --- Jan


------------
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      __________________________________________________________________
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[Asad Sayeed]

Well, one thing I like about the mailinglist interface is that it allows
some interesting things to catch my eye.  I'm less likely to check a
forum on a regular basis, as the interests and topics here are too
diverse for me to deliberately try to follow them.

You know, this is one of the places where the "push" architecture is a
good thing. :)

Yours,
--Asad.

Zsolt G. Kiss wrote:

>
> The advantage of using a forum is that you are not bothered with an
> e-mail for each posting, in a topic where you might not have been
> interested (digest is sg else.) It is straightforward to see only the
> topics you are interested in (well, you can achieve sg close to this
> using a mail filter, but you don't see nicely all contributions to a thread.
>
> What is not so straightforward in a forum is to quote, or to archive to
> the local disk (but you have the server archives, at least for some time...)
>
> If it will be a forum, I prefer an English-speaking interface:)
>
> regards,
>    Zsolt
>
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Jan Wielemaker <wielemak@...
> <mailto:wielemak@...>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     The University is planning to reorganise the mail infrastructure and as
>     a result prolog@... <mailto:prolog@...> will
>     disappear. There are some options
>
>        * Move to surfnet.nl <http://surfnet.nl>, the general dutch
>     academic internet
>        infrastructure, which can provide a mailinglist using listserv
>        with a web archive and list management frontend.  This appears to
>        be a stable supplier.
>
>        * Move to sourceforge, google code, etc.  Experience?  Suggestions?
>
>        * Other ...
>
>     Some issues: forum or mailinglist? Note that nabble and gmane already
>     provide a forum frontend to the mailinglist. When this issue was raised
>     long ago there was strong resistance against using a forum. On the other
>     hand, I guess there is forum software that can be used comfortably
>     through mail as well.
>
>     Most important points as far as I'm concerned is stability, not too
>     sensitive to spam, automatic (un)subscribe and archiving.  A list server
>     must allow for something like [SWIPL] to facilitate search and
>     filtering.
>
>            Thanks --- Jan
>
>
>     ------------
>     For further info, please visit http://www.swi-prolog.org/
>
>     To unsubscribe, send a plaintext mail with "unsubscribe prolog <e-mail>"
>     in its body to majordomo@...
>     <mailto:majordomo@...>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Üdv,
> Zsolt
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Gyakran elhangzik, hogy meg kell menteni a Földet - pedig nem a Föld
> van veszélyben, hanem mi."

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[Jan Wielemaker]

On Monday 28 April 2008 15:44, Alan Baljeu wrote:
> The Protege people use a good mailing list system.

They use mailman, which I like very much indeed. Only, I cannot run that
on the University machines (policy).

Scanning the reactions, forums are out (unless some very good motivation
with a well hosted forum with integrated mailinglist facilities pops up
of course).

That leaves me with listserv on surfnet or mailman somewhere else.
Surfnet is free, fast and stable. ... but I prefer the mailman software
over listserv.  Anyone knows a good hosting service providing mailman
services?

        Cheers --- Jan

>  Alan Baljeu
> http://www.collaborative-systems.org
> Intelligent software that works _with_ you.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jan Wielemaker <wielemak@...>
> To: prolog@...
> Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:41:14 AM
> Subject: [SWIPL] Move mailinglist (suggestions requested)
>
> Hi,
>
> The University is planning to reorganise the mail infrastructure and as
> a result prolog@... will disappear. There are some options
>
>     * Move to surfnet.nl, the general dutch academic internet
>     infrastructure, which can provide a mailinglist using listserv
>     with a web archive and list management frontend.  This appears to
>     be a stable supplier.
>
>     * Move to sourceforge, google code, etc.  Experience?  Suggestions?
>
>     * Other ...
>
> Some issues: forum or mailinglist? Note that nabble and gmane already
> provide a forum frontend to the mailinglist. When this issue was raised
> long ago there was strong resistance against using a forum. On the other
> hand, I guess there is forum software that can be used comfortably
> through mail as well.
>
> Most important points as far as I'm concerned is stability, not too
> sensitive to spam, automatic (un)subscribe and archiving.  A list server
> must allow for something like [SWIPL] to facilitate search and filtering.
>
>     Thanks --- Jan
>
>
> ------------
> For further info, please visit http://www.swi-prolog.org/
>
> To unsubscribe, send a plaintext mail with "unsubscribe prolog <e-mail>"
> in its body to majordomo@...
>
>
>
>       __________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your
> favourite sites. Download it now at http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com.

------------
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[Robert Rothenberg]

I prefer a mailing-list interface with a good, searchable web-based archive.

A mailing list that lets me as a subscriber opt to receive only digests, or
no posts at all (but lets me submit questions so that I can check the web
for replies) is the best option for me, as I only browse the list periodically.

With the above in place, a forum interface is not necessary.

A better idea is to split the mailing list into multiple lists:

* An announcement list for new releases and other news (such as
   critical bugs, security) as well as libraries, conference
   announcements. Probably moderated.

* Lists devoted to major topics, such as constraints.

* Lists devoted to specific ports (Linux, Max OS/X, Windows, etc.)

* And a general list.


Rob

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[Jan Wielemaker]

On Tuesday 29 April 2008 15:30:07 Robert Rothenberg wrote:

> I prefer a mailing-list interface with a good, searchable web-based
> archive.
>
> A mailing list that lets me as a subscriber opt to receive only digests, or
> no posts at all (but lets me submit questions so that I can check the web
> for replies) is the best option for me, as I only browse the list
> periodically.
>
> With the above in place, a forum interface is not necessary.
>
> A better idea is to split the mailing list into multiple lists:
>
> * An announcement list for new releases and other news (such as
>    critical bugs, security) as well as libraries, conference
>    announcements. Probably moderated.
>
> * Lists devoted to major topics, such as constraints.
>
> * Lists devoted to specific ports (Linux, Max OS/X, Windows, etc.)
>
> * And a general list.

Thanks for the input. There have been multiple lists in the past, but it
didn't work very well. True enough there is a wide range of topics
discussed. Traffic on the other hand is quite light. Real announcements
are clearly indicated as such, so a simple client filter will do.

I'd suspect the amount of traffic isn't disturbing for anyone working
with Prolog. `Sleeping' users can use digests or put the mail
automatically in a folder and browse it infrequently. At least that is
what I do with mailinglists I don't want to follow on daily basis.

Of course, if many people are in favour of splitting we can try again.

        Cheers --- Jan


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[Zsolt G. Kiss-2]

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what you need, Robert, is own by forums and not by
mailing lists. I am not sure if such a mailing list exists, but forums
provide all that you need:

- to post, but not receive messages
- searchable archive
- multiple topics

I don't like the idea of many lists, it poses several problems.

Now I see the strong resistance to forums. Few of us have ever used a
forum, and it's a bit scarying, isn't it?

regards,
  Zsolt

On 4/29/08, Robert Rothenberg <robrwo@...> wrote:

>
> I prefer a mailing-list interface with a good, searchable web-based archive.
>
> A mailing list that lets me as a subscriber opt to receive only digests, or
> no posts at all (but lets me submit questions so that I can check the web
> for replies) is the best option for me, as I only browse the list
> periodically.
>
> With the above in place, a forum interface is not necessary.
>
> A better idea is to split the mailing list into multiple lists:
>
> * An announcement list for new releases and other news (such as
>    critical bugs, security) as well as libraries, conference
>    announcements. Probably moderated.
>
> * Lists devoted to major topics, such as constraints.
>
> * Lists devoted to specific ports (Linux, Max OS/X, Windows, etc.)
>
> * And a general list.
>
>
> Rob
>
> ------------
> For further info, please visit http://www.swi-prolog.org/
>
> To unsubscribe, send a plaintext mail with "unsubscribe prolog <e-mail>"
> in its body to majordomo@...
>

--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com

Üdv,
    Zsolt

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gyakran elhangzik, hogy meg kell menteni a Földet - pedig nem a Föld
van veszélyben, hanem mi."

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[Robert Rothenberg]

On 29/04/08 16:35 Zsolt G. Kiss wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry, but what you need, Robert, is own by forums and not by
> mailing lists. I am not sure if such a mailing list exists, but forums

I believe that mailman can do that.

http://www.nntp.perl.org (Contact ask@...) has something like that.
There's a mailing list that you can subscribe to, but some of the lists
allow unsubscribed users to post (doing a decent job of filtering spam).
The list is connected to an nntp news server, so people can use a newsreader
to browse it (it's also browsed by Google and other search engines).  And it
has a web archive.  See the About page at http://www.nntp.perl.org/about/

> provide all that you need:
>
> - to post, but not receive messages
> - searchable archive
> - multiple topics

What I dislike about forums is that I need to create another login just to
post a question once every several months.

With a mailing list interface, I can just send an email to the list (no
separate login needed) and browse the web archives for answers.

 > [...]
> Now I see the strong resistance to forums. Few of us have ever used a
> forum, and it's a bit scarying, isn't it?

I periodically use them for several pieces of software, and they are
frustrating.  Each one gets a login, so I have to remember a username (or
even e-mail, if I use qmail-style filtering) and password.  Each has its own
interface, style, etc. and it gets quite confusing.

And since I have to register, the one advantage of being able to post a
question without signing up to a list is lost.

They also tend to grow a lot of cruft that eats time and bandwidth and
becomes a social networking site more than a forum. Users get home pages,
rate each other and hteir posts, get rankings, form "communities" of
"friends", etc.  Chat applets are added, etc.

So if I forum is used, please keep it as just a forum. Better to direct
people to the Wiki or use an IRC channel, etc.  And pleae, no advertisements!

Rob

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[Tom Breton (Tehom)]

No-one seems to have suggested Yahoo groups yet.  It provides much of what
Robert was asking for.

Tom



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[DJamé Seddah]

> (..)
> What I dislike about forums is that I need to create another login  
> just to post a question once every several months.
>
> With a mailing list interface, I can just send an email to the list  
> (no separate login needed) and browse the web archives for answers.
>
> > [...]
>> Now I see the strong resistance to forums. Few of us have ever used a
>> forum, and it's a bit scarying, isn't it?
>
> I periodically use them for several pieces of software, and they are  
> frustrating.  Each one gets a login, so I have to remember a  
> username (or even e-mail, if I use qmail-style filtering) and  
> password.  Each has its own interface, style, etc. and it gets quite  
> confusing.
>
> And since I have to register, the one advantage of being able to  
> post a question without signing up to a list is lost.
>
> They also tend to grow a lot of cruft that eats time and bandwidth  
> and becomes a social networking site more than a forum. Users get  
> home pages, rate each other and hteir posts, get rankings, form  
> "communities" of "friends", etc.  Chat applets are added, etc.

"+1"

(as would say some forum user I know way too much)

I feel the exact same way. I hate forums so much.


How about trying to find an academic host ? at least it would last  
longer than the next internet bubble...

If needed I can ask my institution to host the mailing list, they  
provide a nice interface to "sympa" and RSS streams, how many  
suscribers are there here ?

Cheers,
Djamé
 
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[Lukas Degener-2]

DJamé Seddah schrieb:
>
> I feel the exact same way. I hate forums so much.
Despite trying to be less emotional about it, I must admit that I
wholeheartedly agree. :-)
>
>
> How about trying to find an academic host ? at least it would last
> longer than the next internet bubble...
Maybe we could use a service like sourceforge, berlios or savannah?
Afterall, SWI-Prolog is an open-source project.

Regards,
--lu


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[Zsolt G. Kiss-2]

Hi,

It is pretty obvious now that there will be a mailing list, which is also fine for me. I just want to share my experience, for your information.

I use a forum for more then one year now, for which I am also administrator. I created first a mailing list and a forum, for the discussions and communication in a house of 200 appartements. But nobody used the mailing list. After a while, the forum came to life, and prooved to be surprisingly clean. Now it has about 50 topics, with a good traffic and is quite popular. Some things surprised even me.

First: there are no advertissements, despite it is a free choice, on a public server. I was thinking it is so because "only registered users can post". But no! It's completely open, and the spammers have not discovered it, for more then 1 year for now. Surprise. (it can be configured for more security, of course)

I have no problems with the login. Maybe because I don't post very often, but even if I do, one login lasts for a long time - several days for me. It's pretty the same like in a webmail.

Third, and probably the most important: the screen is very clean. No ads, no stuff that eats time and bandwidth and no social networking (I hate these as well).  I noticed once that the screen is quite puritan: just the list of topics, in a page and the messages, in another. Not even one image. Easy to build in a homework;)

However, I cannot recommend it for Prolog, because it is too simple: I didn't find an archive for it. And also, an e-mail interface would be desirable. As I am writing this, I am thinking of a nice project for a student. This was written in php. Maybe one in Prolog?;)

best regards,
   Zsolt

On Wed, Apr 30, 2008 at 10:39 AM, Lukas Degener <degenerl@...> wrote:

DJamé Seddah schrieb:

I feel the exact same way. I hate forums so much.

Despite trying to be less emotional about it, I must admit that I wholeheartedly agree. :-)

How about trying to find an academic host ? at least it would last longer than the next internet bubble...

Maybe we could use a service like sourceforge, berlios or savannah? Afterall, SWI-Prolog is an open-source project.

Regards,
--lu

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Üdv,
Zsolt

----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gyakran elhangzik, hogy meg kell menteni a Földet - pedig nem a Föld van veszélyben, hanem mi."

[Benjamin L.Russell]

I've used many forums in the past, and I know a little about what they are like.  They have some of the following disadvantages and advantages versus mailing lists:

Disadvantages:

* Unless users change their settings, new posts tend to get noticed only when people log on (although it is usually possible to set notifications of new posts to be sent).

* They tend to attract many relatively content-free posts of the form "+1," "I agree," or ";)".

* They tend to lead to number-of-post-competitions, in which users post many relatively content-free messages instead of a few content-rich ones to increase their user rank.

However, they do have at least the following advantages as well:

* Users can edit their posts after sending them, correcting typos and editing/adding information instead of sending minor new posts (this is the main advantage I see in forums).

* Users have the option of posting their own user profiles for other users to check, listing their affiliation(s) and/or research interest(s).  This is useful for forming cross-organizational research groups for studying specific research topics.

* Some forums rate postings on the basis of the evaluation of other users, rather than just post count.  For example, Apple Discussions (http://discussions.apple.com/) uses this system.  This system encourages users to post many content-rich posts, rather than relatively content-free posts, which will actually lower their rank.  Having some form of constructive competition in which the content of user posts is used as a basis for determining user rank can be helpful in encouraging participation in a discussion with an otherwise relatively low level of participation.

Given this, my preferences are as follows:

1) If a system can be developed wherein the content of user posts is used as a basis for determining user rank, as opposed to just the number of posts, in addition to providing default user notification of new posts, and the ability to check and submit posts without logging on each time (though an auto-login system, already in use at many forums), I would actually prefer such a combination forum/mailing list to enable correcting typos/errors in posts after submission.  This is especially useful for very long, intricate posts.

For example, recently I spent over an hour submitting a message with several examples of code to a mailing list, only to discover that one of the code examples was missing.  Then I had to submit another message with just that code.  This makes it difficult for anybody to quote my messages, because they then need to quote *both* messages.  A combination forum/mailing list with editable posts would resolve this problem.

2) On the other hand, if it is possible to come up with a mailing list that allows messages to be corrected after submission (I don't know how this would be possible), then I would prefer a mailing list.  It all comes down to whether messages can be edited for errors/omissions/etc. after submission.

Benjamin L. Russell

--- On Wed, 4/30/08, Zsolt G. Kiss <zsolt.gkiss@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm sorry, but what you need, Robert, is own by forums
> and not by
> mailing lists. I am not sure if such a mailing list exists,
> but forums
> provide all that you need:
>
> - to post, but not receive messages
> - searchable archive
> - multiple topics
>
> I don't like the idea of many lists, it poses several
> problems.
>
> Now I see the strong resistance to forums. Few of us have
> ever used a
> forum, and it's a bit scarying, isn't it?
>
> regards,
>   Zsolt
>
> On 4/29/08, Robert Rothenberg <robrwo@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > I prefer a mailing-list interface with a good,
> searchable web-based archive.
> >
> > A mailing list that lets me as a subscriber opt to
> receive only digests, or
> > no posts at all (but lets me submit questions so that
> I can check the web
> > for replies) is the best option for me, as I only
> browse the list
> > periodically.
> >
> > With the above in place, a forum interface is not
> necessary.
> >
> > A better idea is to split the mailing list into
> multiple lists:
> >
> > * An announcement list for new releases and other news
> (such as
> >    critical bugs, security) as well as libraries,
> conference
> >    announcements. Probably moderated.
> >
> > * Lists devoted to major topics, such as constraints.
> >
> > * Lists devoted to specific ports (Linux, Max OS/X,
> Windows, etc.)
> >
> > * And a general list.
> >
> >
> > Rob
> >
> > ------------
> > For further info, please visit
> http://www.swi-prolog.org/
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send a plaintext mail with
> "unsubscribe prolog <e-mail>"
> > in its body to majordomo@...
> >
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
> Üdv,
>     Zsolt
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> "Gyakran elhangzik, hogy meg kell menteni a Földet -
> pedig nem a Föld
> van veszélyben, hanem mi."
>
> ------------
> For further info, please visit http://www.swi-prolog.org/
>
> To unsubscribe, send a plaintext mail with
> "unsubscribe prolog <e-mail>"
> in its body to majordomo@...

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