Microsoft Dynamics

[Peter Jakobsson-2]

Hi All

Lately I've been taking a look around at software products of all types.

20 (even 10 ?) years ago you could approach a business and identify  
loads of areas which needed custom solutions, or even, which  
represented opportunities for vertical market products.

In addition to this, the mass market apps were'nt so great - you  
often felt you could write something much better and the field was  
'open' in a sense.

Recently I'm feeling like I'm an endangered species because:

A] Big commercial applications are so diverse and configurable that  
they reach right into niche market areas and specific business  
processes that used to be the domain of folks like ourselves

B] Software is becoming like the car industry - i.e. you need an army  
of programmers, 10 years of development and a $100M marketing budget  
to do anything significant

C] All that's left for independent developers is to 'glue' together  
the big applications and feed them data

Have I miss-assessed the situation ?

I would be interested to hear if any of you have customers who have  
looked at the 'big solutions' and turned away from them for whatever  
reason (i.e. who didn't have the experience of the customer guy in  
this video ...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPVrRiR0bxg

Regards

Peter

**********************************************************************
Better, faster, more powerful code.
Learn how without leaving the office!
http://www.4d.com/support/training.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:    http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
Unsub:  mailto:4D_Biz-Unsubscribe@...
Post: mailto:4d_biz@...
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/listinfo/4d_biz
**********************************************************************

[Mehboob Alam-5]

http://www.salesforce.com/platform/

They have a pretty compelling platform and success stories to match.
Unfortunately, the initial interest that 4D had in SalesForce
integration has all but evaporated, and you're on your own if you try
to interface an existing 4D solution to SalesForce via webservices.

http://wiki.apexdevnet.com/index.php/CODA_Builds_On_Demand_Financial_Management_Service_on_Force.com
**********************************************************************
Better, faster, more powerful code.
Learn how without leaving the office!
http://www.4d.com/support/training.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:    http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
Unsub:  mailto:4D_Biz-Unsubscribe@...
Post: mailto:4d_biz@...
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/listinfo/4d_biz
**********************************************************************

[Peter Jakobsson-2]

Hi Mehboob

Thanks for the link - will have a look at that - looks interesting.  
As I understand it you basically use their application as a back end  
via SOAP calls for all the 'black box' stuff ?

Peter

On 10 May 2008, at 07:29, Mehboob Alam wrote:

> http://www.salesforce.com/platform/
>
> They have a pretty compelling platform and success stories to match.
> Unfortunately, the initial interest that 4D had in SalesForce
> integration has all but evaporated, and you're on your own if you try
> to interface an existing 4D solution to SalesForce via webservices.
>
> http://wiki.apexdevnet.com/index.php/ 
> CODA_Builds_On_Demand_Financial_Management_Service_on_Force.com
> **********************************************************************
> Better, faster, more powerful code.
> Learn how without leaving the office!
> http://www.4d.com/support/training.html
>
> 4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
> FAQ:    http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
> Unsub:  mailto:4D_Biz-Unsubscribe@...
> Post: mailto:4d_biz@...
> Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/listinfo/4d_biz
> **********************************************************************
>
>

**********************************************************************
Better, faster, more powerful code.
Learn how without leaving the office!
http://www.4d.com/support/training.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:    http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
Unsub:  mailto:4D_Biz-Unsubscribe@...
Post: mailto:4d_biz@...
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/listinfo/4d_biz
**********************************************************************

[Mehboob Alam-5]

SalesForce.com is a CRM application, but Force.com is a developer
platform, and it covers just about the whole gamut of a developers
needs, from a Web2.0 front-end development, to a custom backend
language called Apex which is a hybrid of Java with built-in
extensions for the SQL database. Too much to explain here, but the
Force,com platform is anything but incomplete.

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 3:49 AM, Peter Jakobsson <lists@...> wrote:
> Hi Mehboob
>
> Thanks for the link - will have a look at that - looks interesting. As I
> understand it you basically use their application as a back end via SOAP
> calls for all the 'black box' stuff ?
**********************************************************************
Better, faster, more powerful code.
Learn how without leaving the office!
http://www.4d.com/support/training.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:    http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
Unsub:  mailto:4D_Biz-Unsubscribe@...
Post: mailto:4d_biz@...
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/listinfo/4d_biz
**********************************************************************

[Dougie Cryer]

Peter,

I too have looked at the tools and frameworks out there and agree with you
completely that there are many products that enable the creation of very
sophisticated solutions.  As I see it two things have contributed to the
explosion of the market:

1)  The development of open source solutions which are either free or very
    low cost for deployment.
2)  The globalisation of development meaning that a very competent
    development team can be hired for the cost of a single developer at 10
    years past prices.

So given a clear vision, good project management and good marketing a
project developed for one client can now be produced for many clients.

Looking under the hood of some of these applications I would characterise
them as either good or incredibly good.  Some are a little obfuscated for my
liking (SugarCRM springs to mind) but they are none the less good.

I have also picked up the pieces of a number of small solutions written in
Access or 4D by independent developers who have more domain knowledge than
software development credentials.  These are often inefficient calamities
which are causing the clients real pain by the time they have called in
help.

Whilst I know the competition is hot I am not quite ready to give up.  I
know that my clients need what I am offering them (for now) and it is up to
me to deliver a solution that fits their needs.  Sometimes that will involve
4D where I can balance the deployment costs with the fact that their need
can be delivered in less time.

Increasingly though I have to consider other options.  Clearly I need a
toolset and have to make decisions as to what is in and what is out.  Here
are my current primary tools:

4D 2003 & 2004 plus various plugins
PostgreSQL, MySQL & MS SQL Server
PHP & Classic ASP
DhtmlXGrid
Poseidon UML
JavaScript
Dreamweaver

Others I am considering are:
FLEX

In summary: Yes getting new clients is harder than it was 10 years ago but
not harder than 5 years ago and they are still knocking at my door
frequently enough for me to make a living at something I enjoy.  I have
pretty much given up any dreams that I had of developing the killer vertical
market app and instead stick to delivering my clients with the best value I
can.

Maybe the future for us is to collaborate more on something that ould
benefit us all but agreeing on the toolset would probably a big challenge in
it's own right.

I need to stop these ramblings and get back to some work now.

Regards,  Dougie


**********************************************************************
Better, faster, more powerful code.
Learn how without leaving the office!
http://www.4d.com/support/training.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:    http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
Unsub:  mailto:4D_Biz-Unsubscribe@...
Post: mailto:4d_biz@...
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/listinfo/4d_biz
**********************************************************************

[Peter Jakobsson-2]

Dougie,

Your 'ramblings' were actually very interesting - I hadn't been aware  
of all the open source stuff. I had been looking at commercial  
solutions up till now. The only open source one I looked at was open  
MFG (http://www.openmfg.com/).

I'm not actually planning to install any of these - I'm just in the  
process of doing the 3rd rewrite of my business tools in 20 years.  
Before I embarked on the rewrite I tried to 'sell' an off the shelf  
solution to a couple of existing users, but they didn't want it. I  
couldn't even get them to look at them seriously. This was more about  
the fact that they've got an existing business relationship with me  
and that they want to to 'take care of them than the fact that my  
products are competitive (which they aren't any more).

I realised I wouldn't have the same success with a 'cold start'  
customer which is why I started this thread.

I've been looking Oracle Financials is what I've used for some  
'standards' reference. It's not open source but fairly open in terms  
of it's mechanics by reading the blogs. In the process of this  
research I stumbled across the Microsoft stuff and realised I hadn't  
noticed that they had effectively bought over anything that was  
anything in the CRM/ERM/Accounting market and that that was a major  
sea change from when MS stuck to desktop and server products. They  
now had jumped into the 'middle' bit, thereby closing off a huge  
chunk of market that used to be far more open and diverse.

On 12 May 2008, at 10:54, Dougie Cryer wrote:
> 2)  The globalisation of development meaning that a very competent
>     development team can be hired for the cost of a single  
> developer at 10
>     years past prices.

Absolutely agree with that one. I think that the ability to support  
team development is obviously essential to any product that wants to  
grow. I don't really have any complaints about 4D in this respect.  
One of their business objectives in my opinion should be to get 4D to  
a level technically where it becomes attractive for investors to buy  
and 'business-develop' existing 4D products. The old component model  
wasn't really conducive to this because of the amount of forward  
planning and co-ordination needed, but the new one (with it's  
protected variable space) is more realistic and a huge leap forward  
for team development potential, even in legacy  products.

An interesting business aspect of this is that I had 2 quite big  
customers - one of the a public company - who both had the same  
concerns about buying from a small vendor but who reacted differently.

In both cases, the board level opinion was simple: whatever they  
bought - in terms of accounting at least - had to be from an  
established company and that company had to be well capitalized. It  
wasn't enough that you had a good product or had been around, but you  
had to have been either 'bought over' or 'bought into'. In one case I  
simply lost the customer to a larger company. I didn't mind that  
since they were growing so fast there was no way I could compete and  
I understood that they could not be seen to be dealing with a 'one  
man band'. This is  what they bought, which was described by a board  
member as 'the dogs bollocks'. Initial license fee was £180,000. (=  
$360,000 at today's crumbling dollar prices).

http://www.agresso.com

The other one is still ongoing - they are less traditional and more  
open to all options. Despite this, their board level advice (don't  
know the source) was to buy from 'established, capitalized supplier'.

So there's another example of it - it's not enough to have the right  
product, you've got to have the business model as well. (This was  
always the case to some extent but seems much more amplified now).

> Increasingly though I have to consider other options.

I can't believe the range of tools you are using. That's impressive -  
I admire your adaptability and others on this list that I've seen. I  
have worked in and completed projects in other environments (VB - SQL  
- Office IAutomation), but it just taxes by brain too much to mix and  
match technologies, so I use...

  - 4D
  - Active 4D
  - Arealist Pro

  . . . thats it !! :)

> Others I am considering are:
> FLEX

Well, all I can say to that is 'what is FLEX ?'. :) I look forward to  
the conclusions of your research if your at all willing to share them :)

One last thought on a positive note.

The industry consolidation that's currently going on is also putting  
pressure on the market to formalize their IT infrastructure, thereby  
increasing the size of the market, so it's not all bad news. New  
company startups know from day one that they need 'systems' to be  
competitive so they go shopping for them even before they start  
trading. Old ones are forced to re-tool and still want to be 'lead'  
through the process, so there will always be a market for good  
consultants if they really think you are 'on their side'.

Cheers

Peter

**********************************************************************
Better, faster, more powerful code.
Learn how without leaving the office!
http://www.4d.com/support/training.html

4th Dimension Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
FAQ:    http://www.4d.com/support/faqnug.html
Unsub:  mailto:4D_Biz-Unsubscribe@...
Post: mailto:4d_biz@...
Options: https://lists.4d.com/mailman/listinfo/4d_biz
**********************************************************************