Nabble - MathEdcc

Re: RE: Ideals vs Reality

2008-10-02T18:49:51Z

I just re-read my post from this morning. I should have said "80% of success is NOT just being there!"

Bev Broomell

----- Original Message -----
From: broomell@...
Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008 8:46 am
Subject: Re: RE: Ideals vs Reality
To: Laura Bracken
Cc: Joanna Pruden , owner-mathedcc@...

> On the first day of class, I relate the following two scenarios
> to try to get students to realize that "80% of success is just
> being there."
>
> First scenario: I KNOW how to win a marathon! You just need to
> put one foot in front of the other for 26.2 miles faster than
> anyone else in the race and you win! How hard is that? Well,
> first, I have to be able to RUN to the corner! I cannot win a
> marathon if I don't PRACTICE by running marathon distances --
> eventually! I have to be able to run around the block, first!
>
> Second scenario: I used to be a life guard at a pool. I KNOW
> how to do a swimming rescue! I really do! Could I do it now?
> Only if I wanted to drown! I know how to do the rescue, but I
> have not PRACTICED it in 45 years!
>
> Do these help? With a few students, it works, but many have
> that, "I attended every class, how could I fail?" mentality.
>
> The past four summers, I have worked with a College Success
> program and one thing that I have found that seems to work a
> little better is to select a student (usually the class clown)
> and ask that student if there is something that he or she enjoys
> and is really good at doing. Sometimes a student is in a band
> or on a sports team or lifts weights or is a cheer leader. One
> question I ask them -- in front of the class -- is were you as
> good the first time that you did this activity as you are now?
> My next question (the answer is always, "No.") is, how did you
> get to this level of perfection? The answer is always,
> PRACTICE. That seems to work more than MY examples.
>
> Unfortunately. there seems to be a disconnect between the "real"
> world and academia.
> Bev Broomell
> Suffolk County Community College
> Selden, NY 11984
> (631) 451-4124
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Laura Bracken
> Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:37 pm
> Subject: RE: online math placement exams
> To: Joanna Pruden
> Cc: owner-mathedcc@...
>
> > A few years back we convinced the administration to require strict
> > enforcement of placement scores and to prevent advisors from other
> > departments to override placement scores. We were successful
> > using an
> > economic argument - students that are not placed correctly
> have
> > a high
> > failure rate (and we had the data to prove it.) These students are
> > taking up seats that end up empty, often by midterm, requiring
> > us to
> > offer more sections than we need in some classes and requiring
> > us to
> > offer more sections over time than we would have to if more students
> > were successful in their first time around. They also slow the class
> > down, making it less likely that students passing the class
> will
> > succeedin their next class.
> >
> >
> >
> > Students are sometimes magic thinkers - they think that if
> they
> > want to
> > pass a class enough and if they go to class most of the time
> > (even if
> > they don't do the homework), that it is a given that they will
> > pass the
> > class. So, cheating on a placement test is simply a way to
> save some
> > money and time, to get through the program faster, and they do not
> > expect it to cause any problems.
> >
> >
> >
> > I find it interesting when a student who fails a test will
> look
> > at me
> > seriously and say that she or he is an A student, then
> continue
> > on to
> > say that there is something wrong with the test or my
> teaching.
> > There
> > seems to be a big disconnect between their self-image and
> their actual
> > performance. We do mastery skill quizzes from the first day in
> > class to
> > try to stop it and it does help. Yesterday a student told me
> > that she
> > just "went blank" on the second test of the semester and that
> > she knew
> > the stuff etc. This was a repeat of what I heard after the
> > first test.
> > I was able to look at her skill quiz record (1 passed out of
> 14) and
> > talk about the difference between being familiar with
> > concepts/problemsand being able to use/apply/successfully
> solve
> > them. On a daily basis,
> > she is showing me that she does not know the material.
> >
> >
> >
> > --Laura
> >
> >
> >
> > From: owner-mathedcc@... [mailto:owner-
> > mathedcc@...]On Behalf Of Joanna Pruden
> > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 7:11 PM
> > To: owner-mathedcc@...
> > Subject: online math placement exams
> > Importance: Low
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> >
> >
> > My college's administration has recently decided that we will
> be
> > movingto online math placement exams. According to their plan,
> > all students
> > will be permitted to take their math placement exams from home
> > in an
> > unproctored environment.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am looking for feedback from other schools who might also
> administer> their placement exams to students online. What are
> the pros and cons?
> > Please reply directly to me with any information that you can share.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> >
> >
> > Joanna Pruden
> >
> > Penn College
> >
> >
>

Re: RE: Ideals vs Reality

2008-10-01T19:38:18Z

On the first day of class, I relate the following two scenarios to try to get students to realize that "80% of success is just being there."

First scenario: I KNOW how to win a marathon! You just need to put one foot in front of the other for 26.2 miles faster than anyone else in the race and you win! How hard is that? Well, first, I have to be able to RUN to the corner! I cannot win a marathon if I don't PRACTICE by running marathon distances -- eventually! I have to be able to run around the block, first!

Second scenario: I used to be a life guard at a pool. I KNOW how to do a swimming rescue! I really do! Could I do it now? Only if I wanted to drown! I know how to do the rescue, but I have not PRACTICED it in 45 years!

Do these help? With a few students, it works, but many have that, "I attended every class, how could I fail?" mentality.

The past four summers, I have worked with a College Success program and one thing that I have found that seems to work a little better is to select a student (usually the class clown) and ask that student if there is something that he or she enjoys and is really good at doing. Sometimes a student is in a band or on a sports team or lifts weights or is a cheer leader. One question I ask them -- in front of the class -- is were you as good the first time that you did this activity as you are now? My next question (the answer is always, "No.") is, how did you get to this level of perfection? The answer is always, PRACTICE. That seems to work more than MY examples.

Unfortunately. there seems to be a disconnect between the "real" world and academia.

Bev Broomell

Suffolk County Community College

Selden, NY 11984

(631) 451-4124

----- Original Message -----
From: Laura Bracken
Date: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 12:37 pm
Subject: RE: online math placement exams
To: Joanna Pruden
Cc: owner-mathedcc@...

> A few years back we convinced the administration to require strict
> enforcement of placement scores and to prevent advisors from other
> departments to override placement scores. We were successful
> using an
> economic argument - students that are not placed correctly have
> a high
> failure rate (and we had the data to prove it.) These students are
> taking up seats that end up empty, often by midterm, requiring
> us to
> offer more sections than we need in some classes and requiring
> us to
> offer more sections over time than we would have to if more students
> were successful in their first time around. They also slow the class
> down, making it less likely that students passing the class will
> succeedin their next class.
>
>
>
> Students are sometimes magic thinkers - they think that if they
> want to
> pass a class enough and if they go to class most of the time
> (even if
> they don't do the homework), that it is a given that they will
> pass the
> class. So, cheating on a placement test is simply a way to save some
> money and time, to get through the program faster, and they do not
> expect it to cause any problems.
>
>
>
> I find it interesting when a student who fails a test will look
> at me
> seriously and say that she or he is an A student, then continue
> on to
> say that there is something wrong with the test or my teaching.
> There
> seems to be a big disconnect between their self-image and their actual
> performance. We do mastery skill quizzes from the first day in
> class to
> try to stop it and it does help. Yesterday a student told me
> that she
> just "went blank" on the second test of the semester and that
> she knew
> the stuff etc. This was a repeat of what I heard after the
> first test.
> I was able to look at her skill quiz record (1 passed out of 14) and
> talk about the difference between being familiar with
> concepts/problemsand being able to use/apply/successfully solve
> them. On a daily basis,
> she is showing me that she does not know the material.
>
>
>
> --Laura
>
>
>
> From: owner-mathedcc@... [mailto:owner-
> mathedcc@...]On Behalf Of Joanna Pruden
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 7:11 PM
> To: owner-mathedcc@...
> Subject: online math placement exams
> Importance: Low
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> My college's administration has recently decided that we will be
> movingto online math placement exams. According to their plan,
> all students
> will be permitted to take their math placement exams from home
> in an
> unproctored environment.
>
>
>
> I am looking for feedback from other schools who might also administer
> their placement exams to students online. What are the pros and cons?
> Please reply directly to me with any information that you can share.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Joanna Pruden
>
> Penn College
>
>

Re: online math placement exams

2008-10-01T14:00:01Z

Re: online math placement exams

If you search the Mathed archives you may find this discussion from a few years age. However, FYI, The Ohio State University has had on-line placement tests for 5-6 years now. The math counselors check the test score to see if it is incongruent with class standing/course grades. If it is, the student is required to come to campus and take a paper test.

All test items are in random order with responses in random order, and items are selected from a test bank. There has been NO need to make changes in the placement algorithms with the advent of the on-line tests.

Ed
=================================================
At 06:43 PM 9/30/2008, Bret Taylor wrote:

I have a far simpler idea. Instead of making students take the time to take those placement tests, why not just ask them what course they think they would place into?
(Sarcasm dripping from the keys as I type.)

For evidence of what problems are assoicated with unproctored exams, I suggest someone do a little research on why Florida State University is about to receive severe sanctions from the NCAA. (Students, including but not limited to athletes, were taking a class with unmonitored exams. Some peopel acted as though they were shocked when rampant cheating was discovered.)

----- Original Message -----

From: jpruden@...

To: owner-mathedcc@...

Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:10 PM

Subject: online math placement exams

Hello,

My college's administration has recently decided that we will be moving to online math placement exams. According to their plan, all students will be permitted to take their math placement exams from home in an unproctored environment.

I am looking for feedback from other schools who might also administer their placement exams to students online. What are the pros and cons? Please reply directly to me with any information that you can share.

Thank you,

Joanna Pruden

Penn College

Re: Alternative to Intermediate Algebra

2008-10-01T12:38:28Z

In North Carolina, Intermediate Algebra is a developmental course with no =
college credit.=C2=A0 It is still a requirement as a prerequisite for =
College Algebra and the calculus sequence, and it had been a prerequsite =
for Statistics.=C2=A0 This was changed recently so that after Elementary =
Algebra the student could take the college credit course, Survey of =
Mathematics (which=C2=A0contains many topics including sections on =
probability and simple statistics), and then take Statistics (without =
going through Int. Alg.)
Many of our Nursing, Business and Education students go this route as an =
alternative to the excess algebra.
Mike
- - -----Original Message-----
From: =22Mark Turner=22 <mturner=40cuesta.edu>
Sent 9/30/2008 7:42:44 PM
To: mathedcc=40mathforum.org
Subject: Alternative to Intermediate AlgebraBeginning=C2=A0with =
the=C2=A0Fall 2009 semester,=C2=A0college students=C2=A0in California will =
be required to complete intermediate algebra before they qualify for an =
associate's degree.=C2=A0There is an expectation that we will have a small =
population of students who would=C2=A0like to earn their degree, but for =
one reason or another would find it extremely difficult to be successful =
in an intermediate algebra course that is based on the traditional =
sequence of topics. So,=C2=A0our=C2=A0department=C2=A0has been asked to =
design an alternative course that would be considered equivalent to =
intermediate algebra. It must have elementary algebra as a prerequisite =
and be similar in terms of the level of difficulty and mathematical =
sophistication. Ideally it would include topics that are more relevant to =
a general audience rather than being focused primarily on preparing =
students for a=C2=A0more advanced=C2=A0algebra course such as college =
algebra or precalculus.=C2=A0If you offer a course at your institution =
that is an alternative to intermediate algebra, I would appreciate it if =
you could send me a course outline (or a description of course content, or =
a link to where I could find the information online) and the text you are =
using with the course.=C2=A0Regards,=C2=A0Mark D. TurnerMathematics =
DivisionCuesta CollegeSan Luis Obispo, CA 93405805.546.3100 Ext. =
2789mturner=40cuesta.edu=C2=A0=C2=A0=
****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@... *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@... *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************

Re: online math placement exams

2008-10-01T03:58:20Z

Joanna, the issue regarding online exams in my opinion, have inevitable disadvantages, especially when unproctored. For instance, certain factors like cheating the test comes into consideration. You never know when students group togther and let one student do all the work and the rest will just copy the correct answers after the online test. Moreover, no one can say when the server will be down and students accessing the online test becomes questionable.

In order for an online test to become successful, students who are taking the online test must have a venue for testing as well as a proctor to guide them throughout the time alloted for the test. I speak from experience as the University I study at teaches Education Technology courses as well as experienced academic online tests as a requisite for National Service Training Programs. I hope this opinion helps you in your decision.

Daryl Chiu
3rd year student currently taking Bachelor of Secondary Education - Major in Math

Re: Alternative to Intermediate Algebra

2008-10-01T03:15:45Z

Re: Alternative to Intermediate Algebra Personally I think the traditional sequence of topics, after beginning algebra, is inappropriate for non-STEM majors anyway. It’s really a precalculus curriculum in an age when discrete and statistics topics are more important for many (in my opinion of course).

Although it is for “college algebra” (whatever that is) I suggest looking at AMATYC’s project “The Right Stuff”. Go to http://www.amatyc.org and select the “The Right Stuff” link.

On the general topic of appropriate content, I’d also advocate for looking at the Curriculum guide at http://www.maa.org/CUPM/about.html .

We don’t have such a course but talk about it a lot.

Phil

Philip Mahler
Professor of Mathematics
Middlesex Community College
Bedford MA

On 9/30/08 7:42 PM, "Mark Turner" <mturner@...> wrote:

Beginning with the Fall 2009 semester, college students in California will be required to complete intermediate algebra before they qualify for an associate's degree. There is an expectation that we will have a small population of students who would like to earn their degree, but for one reason or another would find it extremely difficult to be successful in an intermediate algebra course that is based on the traditional sequence of topics. So, our department has been asked to design an alternative course that would be considered equivalent to intermediate algebra. It must have elementary algebra as a prerequisite and be similar in terms of the level of difficulty and mathematical sophistication. Ideally it would include topics that are more relevant to a general audience rather than being focused primarily on preparing students for a more advanced algebra course such as college algebra or precalculus.

If you offer a course at your institution that is an alternative to intermediate algebra, I would appreciate it if you could send me a course outline (or a description of course content, or a link to where I could find the information online) and the text you are using with the course.

Regards,

Mark D. Turner
Mathematics Division
Cuesta College
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805.546.3100 Ext. 2789
mturner@...

RE: Alternative to Intermediate Algebra

2008-09-30T16:55:35Z

In MN, Intermediate Algebra is considered a developmental course, and stude=
nts receive no credit for it that counts toward graduation. (Students do r=
eceive credit, and it does count in their GPAs. The credit does not count =
toward any award: certificate, diploma, AAS, AFA, AS, nor AA.)

In order to earn an AA degree, students must pass College Algebra, Stats, o=
r Mathematics for the Liberal Arts. All of these courses are supposed to h=
ave Intermediate Algebra as a prerequisite.

Also, starting with this year's sixth graders, in order to graduate from HS=
, students will have to pass a high stakes math test that contains topics f=
rom Algebra II as well as some probability and statistics content. The tes=
t will first be taken in the spring of their junior year in HS.

Beth Hentges
Century College

From: owner-mathedcc@... [mailto:owner-mathedcc@...] On=
Behalf Of Mark Turner
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 6:43 PM
To: mathedcc@...
Subject: Alternative to Intermediate Algebra

Beginning with the Fall 2009 semester, college students in California will =
be required to complete intermediate algebra before they qualify for an ass=
ociate's degree. There is an expectation that we will have a small populati=
on of students who would like to earn their degree, but for one reason or a=
nother would find it extremely difficult to be successful in an intermediat=
e algebra course that is based on the traditional sequence of topics. So, o=
ur department has been asked to design an alternative course that would be =
considered equivalent to intermediate algebra. It must have elementary alge=
bra as a prerequisite and be similar in terms of the level of difficulty an=
d mathematical sophistication. Ideally it would include topics that are mor=
e relevant to a general audience rather than being focused primarily on pre=
paring students for a more advanced algebra course such as college algebra =
or precalculus.

If you offer a course at your institution that is an alternative to interme=
diate algebra, I would appreciate it if you could send me a course outline =
(or a description of course content, or a link to where I could find the in=
formation online) and the text you are using with the course.

Regards,

Mark D. Turner
Mathematics Division
Cuesta College
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805.546.3100 Ext. 2789
mturner@...<mailto:mturner@...>
****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@... *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@... *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************

Re: online math placement exams

2008-09-30T16:43:53Z

I have a far simpler idea. Instead of making students take the time to take those placement tests, why not just ask them what course they think they would place into?

(Sarcasm dripping from the keys as I type.)

For evidence of what problems are assoicated with unproctored exams, I suggest someone do a little research on why Florida State University is about to receive severe sanctions from the NCAA. (Students, including but not limited to athletes, were taking a class with unmonitored exams. Some peopel acted as though they were shocked when rampant cheating was discovered.)

----- Original Message -----

From: jpruden@...

To: owner-mathedcc@...

Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:10 PM

Subject: online math placement exams

Hello,

My college's administration has recently decided that we will be moving to online math placement exams. According to their plan, all students will be permitted to take their math placement exams from home in an unproctored environment.

I am looking for feedback from other schools who might also administer their placement exams to students online. What are the pros and cons? Please reply directly to me with any information that you can share.

Thank you,

Joanna Pruden

Penn College

Alternative to Intermediate Algebra

2008-09-30T16:42:44Z

Beginning with the Fall 2009 semester, college students in California will be required to complete intermediate algebra before they qualify for an associate's degree. There is an expectation that we will have a small population of students who would like to earn their degree, but for one reason or another would find it extremely difficult to be successful in an intermediate algebra course that is based on the traditional sequence of topics. So, our department has been asked to design an alternative course that would be considered equivalent to intermediate algebra. It must have elementary algebra as a prerequisite and be similar in terms of the level of difficulty and mathematical sophistication. Ideally it would include topics that are more relevant to a general audience rather than being focused primarily on preparing students for a more advanced algebra course such as college algebra or precalculus.

If you offer a course at your institution that is an alternative to intermediate algebra, I would appreciate it if you could send me a course outline (or a description of course content, or a link to where I could find the information online) and the text you are using with the course.

Regards,

Mark D. Turner

Mathematics Division

Cuesta College

San Luis Obispo, CA 93405

805.546.3100 Ext. 2789

mturner@...

RE: online math placement exams

2008-09-30T09:25:36Z

A few years back we convinced the administration to require strict enforcement of placement scores and to prevent advisors from other departments to override placement scores. We were successful using an economic argument – students that are not placed correctly have a high failure rate (and we had the data to prove it.) These students are taking up seats that end up empty, often by midterm, requiring us to offer more sections than we need in some classes and requiring us to offer more sections over time than we would have to if more students were successful in their first time around. They also slow the class down, making it less likely that students passing the class will succeed in their next class.

Students are sometimes magic thinkers – they think that if they want to pass a class enough and if they go to class most of the time (even if they don’t do the homework), that it is a given that they will pass the class. So, cheating on a placement test is simply a way to save some money and time, to get through the program faster, and they do not expect it to cause any problems.

I find it interesting when a student who fails a test will look at me seriously and say that she or he is an A student, then continue on to say that there is something wrong with the test or my teaching. There seems to be a big disconnect between their self-image and their actual performance. We do mastery skill quizzes from the first day in class to try to stop it and it does help. Yesterday a student told me that she just “went blank” on the second test of the semester and that she knew the stuff etc. This was a repeat of what I heard after the first test. I was able to look at her skill quiz record (1 passed out of 14) and talk about the difference between being familiar with concepts/problems and being able to use/apply/successfully solve them. On a daily basis, she is showing me that she does not know the material.

--Laura

From: owner-mathedcc@... [mailto:owner-mathedcc@...] On Behalf Of Joanna Pruden
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 7:11 PM
To: owner-mathedcc@...
Subject: online math placement exams
Importance: Low

Hello,

My college's administration has recently decided that we will be moving to online math placement exams. According to their plan, all students will be permitted to take their math placement exams from home in an unproctored environment.

I am looking for feedback from other schools who might also administer their placement exams to students online. What are the pros and cons? Please reply directly to me with any information that you can share.

Thank you,

Joanna Pruden

Penn College

RE: online math placement exams

2008-09-30T09:01:04Z

RE: online math placement exams

Joanna, we would never allow unproctored placement testing. Our department has strongly advocated the idea that it is unfair to the other students in a math class to allow students who are clearly unprepared to join the class, since the unprepared students often demand more of the instructor's time and cannot carry their weight in group activities. How can we really know if the student is prepared if we don't even know who took the placement test?

However, to ease the burden of doing all of the placement testing on campus, our testing folks have made arrangements with some of the local high schools to allow the schools to host proctored testing at their locations. Many of the high schools are interested in offering this testing to their juniors (to encourage them to take more math) and seniors (to encourage them to think about continuing to college).

Peter Collinge, Professor & Chair
Department of Mathematics
Monroe Community College, Rochester NY 14623

Voice: (585)292-2943 E-mail: pcollinge@....

From: owner-mathedcc@... [mailto:owner-mathedcc@...] On Behalf Of Joanna Pruden
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:11 PM
To: owner-mathedcc@...
Subject: online math placement exams

Hello,

Thank you,

Joanna Pruden

Penn College

Earthwatch Fellowships Call For Applications

2008-09-30T08:43:23Z

Hello All,

This is Kevin McAndrew; I am the Fellowship outreach coordinator at Earthwatch Institute. I am writing to announce that we are now accepting applications for all of our student and educator fellowships for 2008-2009!

· More Information, deadlines, and applications are on the web!

Know someone who should apply? Nominate a teacher or student!
Learn what a fellowship is like in the words of past fellows!

Earthwatch fellowships allow teachers and students to get out of the classroom and head into the field. Fellows learn about cutting edge research and conservation efforts, develop professional skills, and make a difference for our shared environment. Earthwatch fellowships bring the world alive like never before!

If you haven’t yet applied for a fellowship, or joined an Earthwatch expedition I hope you are excited to apply this year. If you have already received a fellowship or currently have an application on file, please share this information with your friends and colleagues, and make sure to nominate an outstanding teacher or student!

Feel free to call or write with questions, I am happy to help.

Best,

Kevin

Kevin McAndrew

Outreach Coordinator

Earthwatch Institute

1.800.776.0188 (ext. 268)

kmcandrew@...

www.earthwatch.org

online math placement exams

2008-09-29T19:10:36Z

Hello,

Thank you,

Joanna Pruden

Penn College

Re: Math is math and college is college

2008-09-22T09:15:43Z

On Sep 22, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Adam Stinchcombe wrote:

> Besides arguing against proposition A directly,

1) I agree that "understanding the concepts" is not sufficient to
"perform the by-hand skills".

2) As to whether it is necessary it depends on what is being done.
You don't need to know what's under the hood to drive a car but you
sure do to repair or improve it.

So, I think that "understanding the concepts" requires some expounding.

Regards
--Schremmer

****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@... *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@... *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************

RE: Math is math and college is college

2008-09-22T08:28:20Z

Besides arguing against proposition A directly, I think the
contrapositive is an automatic proof of its fallacy:

A') If students can not perform the by-hand skills, then students do not
understand the concepts.

The first time I ever played pool, I thought "Oh neat, what an
interesting game. Applied geometry." I tried a 5 bank shot, and, well,
it didn't go as planned. I understood the concepts (angle in, angle
out) pretty well but I didn't make the shot. Now, I usually limit
myself to two banks or fewer. BTW the bumpers were soft on the very
well-used table.

Adam Stinchcombe
EAC Thatcher AZ

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-mathedcc@... [mailto:owner-mathedcc@...]
On Behalf Of Leonard Blackburn
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 8:37 AM
To: Bruce Yoshiwara; mail list
Subject: RE: Math is math and college is college

Bruce,

I don't think we disagree entirely on "how to test for conceptual
understanding." I didn't mention how I would _test_ for or teach
conceptual understanding, I just mentioned that I expect my students to
be able to do simple things like 1/2 + 1/2 without a calculator. (I
agree that asking a student to explain why his or her answer is correct
is a good way to test for conceptual understanding.) But I also expect
them to understand what they are doing, which is why I always teach with
a foundation of understanding. This is also why I am currently writing
a textbook about _understanding_ numbers (why the algorithms work,
number sense, etc.) You are absolutely right. Students can follow
algorithms without knowing why they work.

So, I am working under the following assumption.

A. If students understand the concepts, then they can perform the
by-hand skills.

You correctly argue that the converse is not true. However, my point
is that the _contrapositive_ is true. Therefore, I must teach early
concepts of arithmetic and algebra without too much (if any) focus on
the calculator.

And besides, I don't think you'll be able to convince me that
innumeracy is ok. The bottom line for me is that many of the students
I've encountered here have a hard time computing, by hand, simple things
like 5*0, 0/5, 5/0, 1/2 + 1/2, 1/2 + 3/4, -4 + 5, (2 + 3)^2 etc, with or
without understanding, and this is not acceptable.

- -Leonard
<< snip
****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@... *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@... *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************

RE: Math is math and college is college

2008-09-21T08:37:25Z

Bruce,

I don't think we disagree entirely on "how to test for conceptual
understanding." I didn't mention how I would _test_ for or teach
conceptual understanding, I just mentioned that I expect my students to
be able to do simple things like 1/2 + 1/2 without a calculator. (I
agree that asking a student to explain why his or her answer is correct
is a good way to test for conceptual understanding.) But I also expect
them to understand what they are doing, which is why I always teach with
a foundation of understanding. This is also why I am currently writing
a textbook about _understanding_ numbers (why the algorithms work,
number sense, etc.) You are absolutely right. Students can follow
algorithms without knowing why they work.

So, I am working under the following assumption.

A. If students understand the concepts, then they can perform the
by-hand skills.

You correctly argue that the converse is not true. However, my point
is that the _contrapositive_ is true. Therefore, I must teach early
concepts of arithmetic and algebra without too much (if any) focus on
the calculator.

And besides, I don't think you'll be able to convince me that
innumeracy is ok. The bottom line for me is that many of the students
I've encountered here have a hard time computing, by hand, simple things
like 5*0, 0/5, 5/0, 1/2 + 1/2, 1/2 + 3/4, -4 + 5, (2 + 3)^2 etc, with or
without understanding, and this is not acceptable.

- -Leonard

>>> Bruce Yoshiwara <byoshiwara@...> 9/20/2008 1:53 PM >>>

Hi Leonard,

We both believe conceptual understanding is essential, but we disagree
entirely on how to test for
conceptual understanding.

If your student correctly computes 1/2 + 1/2 in the manner you expect,
can you tell if s/he understands
the concept of adding the fractions, or could a weak understanding but
mastery of the algorithm
suffice to get the correct answer? I suspect the latter: A student
can memorize an algorithm
without understanding why the algorithm works. For example, I would
guess that very few people
can explain why the long division algorithm we teach actually works,
even among those who have
completely mastered the algorithm. (It seems to require facts about
place-value number systems
and the distributive law...)

If I wanted to check to see if a student understands the concept of
adding 1/2 to itself, I would not
give an exercise “1/2 + 1/2 = ?”. Instead, I might ask the student
to explain why his sum is valid,
perhaps suggesting that a number line or diagram could be used. Or I
might give a word problem in
which the sum is required for the answer.

I do not see the value in being able to graph y = x as an object in
itself. If I wanted to assess
a student's understanding of the graph, I might ask the student to
explain how to find the
x-coordinate of a point on the graph when given the y-coordinate
(without specific values).
I might ask that if we start at one point on the graph and move to
another point whose x-coordinate
is 100,000,005 units larger than our original, how much larger is the
new y-coordinate than the
original. But in all likelihood, we would not be considering the graph
unless it involved some
larger context, and I'd ask the student to draw conclusions about the
larger context.

I'm confident that every candidate we've ever interviewed for a math
teaching position could graph
y=x if asked to do that single skill. But in one interview, the
candidate graphed y = 2^x, then
y=x, then the graph of the logarithm base 2. And in his own
self-created context, the candidate
did not notice that his graph of y=x did not pass through (1,1), and I
would guess he could make
this error because his understanding of graphing equations was so
algorithmic that he neglected
to think about meaning.

I'm sorry your textbooks do a poor job of explaining concepts. But
maybe that elevates our job
security. We both agree here that it is our responsibility to teach
concepts.

A simple fix for testing about transformations is to give the students
a graph of a function for
which the students will not be able to figure out a formula to put into
their calculators. It could
be a piecewise-defined function or any reasonable scribble you wish to
make. Then ask them to graph
y=f(x+a) or whatever.

I agree with you in some of your other points about conceptual
understanding, but I strongly believe
that there are ways to test for conceptual understanding that allow
students to use calculators, and
I believe many such methods are more effective than some
calculator-free methods that are used.

Bruce

> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:25:09 -0500
> From: LBlackburn@...
> To: byoshiwara@...
> Subject: RE: Math is math and college is college
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I don't know what you mean by "One would
> embrace your description of what belongs in TYC
> mathematics". I don't think I ever gave such a description. If I

were to give such a description, it would begin with the desire to give
students a deep conceptual understanding of mathematics and its uses.
>
> You said, "They are instead replacing unnecessary paper-and-pencil
skills
> with useful and more intellectually
> challenging skills of quantitative reasoning and problem solving."
> Don't you think that when a student reaches for a calculator to find
1/2 + 1/2 or -4 + 5 or to graph y = x or to convert 0.25 to a fraction,
or to find
> 8 x 0, there is a lack of _conceptual_ understanding of numbers? To
call such skills "unnecessary" astounds me.
>
> Adding numerical fractions by hand leads to understanding how to add
algebraic fractions, which leads to understanding partial fraction
decomposition, which leads to .... Adding fractions on a calculator robs
the students of conceptual understanding.
>
> Doing long-division by hand leads to understanding how to divide
polynomials...
>
> Graphing simple functions by hand leads to understanding the whole
function concept, inputs/outputs, the definition of the graph, etc. --
as another poster pointed out with a great example.
>
> Doing limits like the limit as x approaches infinity of 2/(x+1)
without a calculator forces conceptual understanding. Doing limits on a
calculator with a table feature turns it into a rote chore.
>
> Adding and subtracting integers by hand promotes conceptual
understanding of these operations and the number line. Using the +/-
key on a calculator robs these students of conceptual understanding.
>
> I could go on forever. Add all of these to my previous list of the
benefits of doing things by hand and to the other examples other posters
have written.
>
> During my lectures, I can often here the sheaths being removed from
my students calculators when they anticipate a "calculator chore" coming
up. They are often amazed that I don't stop to pick up my calculator
and that I can usually complete the task mentally quicker than they can
on a calculator. And I'm not talking multiplying four-digit numbers, I
am talking conceptual things.
>
> Here's another great example of how technology has robbed students of
conceptual understanding. I have noticed that while reviewing college
algebra textbooks in my state of Illinois (by the way, Illinois is one
of the only states that uses College Algebra as a means to prepare
students for calculus rather than as a terminal course) that every one
of the dozen or so books teaches transformations of graphs by rote
memorization. In a little box, you'll see something like this: The
graph of y = f(x + c) where c > 0 is the graph of y = f(x) shifted left
c units. No explanation as to why. But most of the texts also have a
calculator feature that instructs students to graph y = x^2, y =
(x+1)^2, y = (x+2)^2 on their screens simultaneously. Then they say
"See? It shifts left." That's how we should teach this topic? By
observing what happens on a calculator? Not through understanding? I
want my students to know _why_ the graph is shifted left. Making a
dozen graphs on a calculator will never tell them why.
>
> I do realize that calculators have their place, and I do use them in
my teaching. But I won't use them to rob my students of conceptual
understanding. Also, I am not implying that you or anyone else on this
list uses calculators in this way either.
>
> Can calculators _aid_ conceptual understanding? Certainly. But in
my experience, it is much more often the other way.
>
> -Leonard
>
> PS. My students will tell you that my courses are very tough, and
the ones who pass thank me for it.

>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Bruce Yoshiwara <byoshiwara@...> 9/19/2008 10:31 PM >>>
> Hi Leonard,
>
> You have written in this discussion:
>
> I am aghast at the idea that some people have that it is ok to lower

standards and make things easier on students to get a degree so that
> they can get a better job.
> ...
> Why would you just make it a bit easier by taking out some of the
harder concepts, and allowing unlimited calculator use? Why stop
there?
> Why not just give everybody an "A" no matter what they did?
> ...
> I just wanted to say that taking away an obstacle solely for the
sake of giving a person an easier path toward a better job is wrong in
the context of college.

> ...
> Your assumptions/perceptions are so
> different from mine, it is amusing. Perhaps in your experience, the
> educators who have their students use calculators are making their
> classes easier. But in my world...
>
> My department has two camps. One would
> embrace your description of what belongs in TYC
> mathematics, and that camp includes the teachers who are well-known
> to be the easiest in the department. How easy? Well, one had a

class of 51 Calc II
> students (the normal size is 35 students) with 100% retention and
> 100% success. A second instructor from this camp once remarked,
without irony, that
> he had a perfect curve in his algebra class: 10 A's, 20 B's, and 10
> C's (no D's, F's or W's).
>
>
> Our college researcher discovered that
> these two were outliers in one interesting respect: their passing
> students had a significantly lower probability of passing their next
math course from any other instructor than the students from
> all the other full-time members of the department.
>
> The instructors in the second camp of my department do allow
calculators, and they do de-emphasize some rote skills that have in the
past been standard topics. But they do not describe what
> they are doing as lowering standards or as taking away obstacles to
give students an easier
> path. They are instead replacing unnecessary paper-and-pencil
skills
> with useful and more intellectually
> challenging skills of quantitative reasoning and problem solving.
> There is universal agreement among students, faculty, counselors,
and
> administration that the most intellectuallly challenging classes to
get through in the
> department are taught by members from this second camp.
> This second camp views the changes in developmental math at CC's not
as a result of K12 reform math movements, but as an extension of the
calculus reform movement. The K12 math wars are not the same as the
calculus math wars.
> Allowing calculators does not mean making a class easier.
De-emphasizing some rote skills to make room for increasing emphasis on
critical thinking does not make a class easier. Developing mathematical
ideas in real world contexts is not a watering-down of mathematics.But
there is a chance that some students who could not have succeeded when
required to do all calculations by paper-and-pencil can actually
flourish when allowed to focus on concepts and problem-solving because
technology is carrying out the algorithms.
> Bruce Yoshiwara
> Los Angeles Pierce College
****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@... *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@... *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************

RE: Math is math and college is college

2008-09-20T11:53:22Z

Hi Leonard,

We both believe conceptual understanding is essential, but we disagree entirely on how to test for
conceptual understanding.

If your student correctly computes 1/2 + 1/2 in the manner you expect, can you tell if s/he understands
the concept of adding the fractions, or could a weak understanding but mastery of the algorithm
suffice to get the correct answer? I suspect the latter: A student can memorize an algorithm
without understanding why the algorithm works. For example, I would guess that very few people
can explain why the long division algorithm we teach actually works, even among those who have
completely mastered the algorithm. (It seems to require facts about place-value number systems
and the distributive law...)

If I wanted to check to see if a student understands the concept of adding 1/2 to itself, I would not
give an exercise “1/2 + 1/2 = ?”. Instead, I might ask the student to explain why his sum is valid,
perhaps suggesting that a number line or diagram could be used. Or I might give a word problem in
which the sum is required for the answer.

I do not see the value in being able to graph y = x as an object in itself. If I wanted to assess
a student's understanding of the graph, I might ask the student to explain how to find the
x-coordinate of a point on the graph when given the y-coordinate (without specific values).
I might ask that if we start at one point on the graph and move to another point whose x-coordinate
is 100,000,005 units larger than our original, how much larger is the new y-coordinate than the
original. But in all likelihood, we would not be considering the graph unless it involved some
larger context, and I'd ask the student to draw conclusions about the larger context.

I'm confident that every candidate we've ever interviewed for a math teaching position could graph
y=x if asked to do that single skill. But in one interview, the candidate graphed y = 2^x, then
y=x, then the graph of the logarithm base 2. And in his own self-created context, the candidate
did not notice that his graph of y=x did not pass through (1,1), and I would guess he could make
this error because his understanding of graphing equations was so algorithmic that he neglected
to think about meaning.

I'm sorry your textbooks do a poor job of explaining concepts. But maybe that elevates our job
security. We both agree here that it is our responsibility to teach concepts.

A simple fix for testing about transformations is to give the students a graph of a function for
which the students will not be able to figure out a formula to put into their calculators. It could
be a piecewise-defined function or any reasonable scribble you wish to make. Then ask them to graph
y=f(x+a) or whatever.

I agree with you in some of your other points about conceptual understanding, but I strongly believe
that there are ways to test for conceptual understanding that allow students to use calculators, and
I believe many such methods are more effective than some calculator-free methods that are used.

Bruce

> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 12:25:09 -0500

> From: LBlackburn@...
> To: byoshiwara@...
> Subject: RE: Math is math and college is college
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I don't know what you mean by "One would
> embrace your description of what belongs in TYC
> mathematics". I don't think I ever gave such a description. If I were to give such a description, it would begin with the desire to give students a deep conceptual understanding of mathematics and its uses.
>
> You said, "They are instead replacing unnecessary paper-and-pencil skills
> with useful and more intellectually
> challenging skills of quantitative reasoning and problem solving."
> Don't you think that when a student reaches for a calculator to find 1/2 + 1/2 or -4 + 5 or to graph y = x or to convert 0.25 to a fraction, or to find
> 8 x 0, there is a lack of _conceptual_ understanding of numbers? To call such skills "unnecessary" astounds me.
>
> Adding numerical fractions by hand leads to understanding how to add algebraic fractions, which leads to understanding partial fraction decomposition, which leads to .... Adding fractions on a calculator robs the students of conceptual understanding.
>
> Doing long-division by hand leads to understanding how to divide polynomials...
>
> Graphing simple functions by hand leads to understanding the whole function concept, inputs/outputs, the definition of the graph, etc. -- as another poster pointed out with a great example.
>
> Doing limits like the limit as x approaches infinity of 2/(x+1) without a calculator forces conceptual understanding. Doing limits on a calculator with a table feature turns it into a rote chore.
>
> Adding and subtracting integers by hand promotes conceptual understanding of these operations and the number line. Using the +/- key on a calculator robs these students of conceptual understanding.
>
> I could go on forever. Add all of these to my previous list of the benefits of doing things by hand and to the other examples other posters have written.
>
> During my lectures, I can often here the sheaths being removed from my students calculators when they anticipate a "calculator chore" coming up. They are often amazed that I don't stop to pick up my calculator and that I can usually complete the task mentally quicker than they can on a calculator. And I'm not talking multiplying four-digit numbers, I am talking conceptual things.
>
> Here's another great example of how technology has robbed students of conceptual understanding. I have noticed that while reviewing college algebra textbooks in my state of Illinois (by the way, Illinois is one of the only states that uses College Algebra as a means to prepare students for calculus rather than as a terminal course) that every one of the dozen or so books teaches transformations of graphs by rote memorization. In a little box, you'll see something like this: The graph of y = f(x + c) where c > 0 is the graph of y = f(x) shifted left c units. No explanation as to why. But most of the texts also have a calculator feature that instructs students to graph y = x^2, y = (x+1)^2, y = (x+2)^2 on their screens simultaneously. Then they say "See? It shifts left." That's how we should teach this topic? By observing what happens on a calculator? Not through understanding? I want my students to know _why_ the graph is shifted left. Making a dozen graphs on a calculator will never tell them why.
>
> I do realize that calculators have their place, and I do use them in my teaching. But I won't use them to rob my students of conceptual understanding. Also, I am not implying that you or anyone else on this list uses calculators in this way either.
>
> Can calculators _aid_ conceptual understanding? Certainly. But in my experience, it is much more often the other way.
>
> -Leonard
>
> PS. My students will tell you that my courses are very tough, and the ones who pass thank me for it.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Bruce Yoshiwara <byoshiwara@...> 9/19/2008 10:31 PM >>>
> Hi Leonard,
>
> You have written in this discussion:
>
> I am aghast at the idea that some people have that it is ok to lower standards and make things easier on students to get a degree so that
> they can get a better job.
> ...
> Why would you just make it a bit easier by taking out some of the harder concepts, and allowing unlimited calculator use? Why stop there?
> Why not just give everybody an "A" no matter what they did?
> ...
> I just wanted to say that taking away an obstacle solely for the sake of giving a person an easier path toward a better job is wrong in the context of college.
> ...
> Your assumptions/perceptions are so
> different from mine, it is amusing. Perhaps in your experience, the
> educators who have their students use calculators are making their
> classes easier. But in my world...
>
> My department has two camps. One would
> embrace your description of what belongs in TYC
> mathematics, and that camp includes the teachers who are well-known
> to be the easiest in the department. How easy? Well, one had a class of 51 Calc II
> students (the normal size is 35 students) with 100% retention and
> 100% success. A second instructor from this camp once remarked, without irony, that
> he had a perfect curve in his algebra class: 10 A's, 20 B's, and 10
> C's (no D's, F's or W's).
>
>
> Our college researcher discovered that
> these two were outliers in one interesting respect: their passing
> students had a significantly lower probability of passing their next math course from any other instructor than the students from
> all the other full-time members of the department.
>
> The instructors in the second camp of my department do allow calculators, and they do de-emphasize some rote skills that have in the past been standard topics. But they do not describe what
> they are doing as lowering standards or as taking away obstacles to give students an easier
> path. They are instead replacing unnecessary paper-and-pencil skills
> with useful and more intellectually
> challenging skills of quantitative reasoning and problem solving.
> There is universal agreement among students, faculty, counselors, and
> administration that the most intellectuallly challenging classes to get through in the
> department are taught by members from this second camp.
> This second camp views the changes in developmental math at CC's not as a result of K12 reform math movements, but as an extension of the calculus reform movement. The K12 math wars are not the same as the calculus math wars.
> Allowing calculators does not mean making a class easier. De-emphasizing some rote skills to make room for increasing emphasis on critical thinking does not make a class easier. Developing mathematical ideas in real world contexts is not a watering-down of mathematics.But there is a chance that some students who could not have succeeded when required to do all calculations by paper-and-pencil can actually flourish when allowed to focus on concepts and problem-solving because technology is carrying out the algorithms.
> Bruce Yoshiwara
> Los Angeles Pierce College

FW: Math is math and college is college

2008-09-20T10:46:18Z

Hmm.

The reason I repeated some quotations from Leonard is that I believe they show an underlying conviction that using calculators and/or changing topic emphasis is linked to lowering standards.

My point is that, while indeed some people (including perhaps everyone within Leonard's acquaintance) who are proponents of calculators and revising standards are trying to "help" students by lowering standards, not everyone who is seeking change is watering down the curriculum.

I want readers on this list to understand that they should not resist change based simply on the expectation that change means lowering standards.

In the email below, where Jason Edlinger points out that I'd taken Leonard's words out of context, Jason also seems to expect that a change in standards can only mean a lowering of standards.

One of the key ideas of AMATYC's Beyond Crossroads document is the concept of embracing change for continuous improvement.

I don't recall if someone did actually post that s/he was intentionally lowering standards to make it easier for students to get a job. But because of my biases, I had interpreted what had been written as saying that we should not allow artificial barriers to prevent students from progressing in their mathematical studies.

I would say that requiring algebra students to solve absolute value inequalities by purely algebraic pencil-and-paper methods is an artificial barrier.

On the other hand, I do expect that my algebra students can solve absolute value (and polynomial and rational and exponential and logarithmic and ...) inequalities by analyzing appropriate graphs, and they can readily produce the graphs themselves because they have access to appropriate technology.

I don't think I'm lowering standards. My students certainly don't believe my classes are easier to pass than those of my colleagues. But before using graphing calculators, all my students would be completely dumbfounded if asked to solve the inequality

x+2 > 2^x

but now the "linear > exponential" inequalities that arise, for example, with the classic economic model of Malthus, are just as accessible as any other inequality in one variable. More significantly, I now have the time to ask questions about interpreting the significance of specific points on the graph in the context of the model (e.g., "What does F(x) = P(x) mean in terms of food production and population?"). I think such analysis requires a higher level of critical thinking than mastery of an algorithm.

I completely agree that education should not be mistaken for job training. And when the engineer on my dissertation committee asked how my results will be used, I had to admit that I knew (and continue today still to know) of no apparent practical application. But I am ruthlessly content with taking advantage of my students' mercenary desire for making tons of money to entice them to put in extra effort to master the mathematics I want them to learn.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Math is math and college is college
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:27:38 -0700
From: jedington@...
To: byoshiwara@...

Bruce,

I cannot, for now, reply to the list serve because my email address changed (they finally put the 'n' on the end of my name.) So, for now, let me just reply to you.

I agree with you in the respect that the calculator helps us teach more important things than just simple calculations. I would point out, however, that what Leonard was responding to was someone who said that they (and I'll not be able to quote here) lowered their standards because they were standing in the way of adults that had trouble with math earning a college degree.

The last time I checked, at least here in California, where you and I teach, we have a governing board that decides what the minimum requirements are to get a degree. While I do profess to be (somewhat) a content expert, I am not an expert in education itself. I have, however, spent some time learning about education and researching it, and I think that having a standard IS important.

In fact (again, I don't have the research in front of me) there has been published surveys that show that problem solving, critical thinking skills, and analytical skills are among the most lacking qualities in recent hires. No, not recent high school students, but recent college graduates!

Further, I completely disagree that my sole job is to make other employable. It is part of my job, and there are those that may only be able to earn a certificate and not a degree. I am not about to lower my standards simply because 'math is too hard' for some people. In my (admittedly short) experience (6 years teaching) I have met very few students that really could not do math when they made it a priority. I think what I see more often than not is people who don't think math is important and do the very least they can to get through the hoop. There have been those that, indeed, have not been able to get through math. In my experience, it has been (quite typically) older students that had horrible experiences in high school many, many years ago, and who are usually so completely upset by any type of quiz or test that they cannot function well enough to proceed on the test. I usually send these students to be tested for a learning disability to see if they can get extra time or a quiet setting.

I realize that I do not have decades of teaching experience, and I do not mean to act as though I 'know-it-all.' I only have my experience to go from, and the reading that I have done. Honestly, though, the main reason I wrote was that I thought perhaps you had gotten Leonard's quotes out of context.

By the way, this is a great discussion!

Jason Edington

Instructor - Mathematics Department

Mendocino College

1000 Hensley Creek Road

Ukiah, CA 95482

(707)467-1004

From: Bruce Yoshiwara [mailto:byoshiwara@...]
Sent: Fri 9/19/2008 8:31 PM
To: ACCCESS-COMBINED@...
Subject: Re: Math is math and college is college

Hi Leonard,

You have written in this discussion:

I am aghast at the idea that some people have that it is ok to lower standards and make things easier on students to get a degree so that
they can get a better job.

...

Why would you just make it a bit easier by taking out some of the harder concepts, and allowing unlimited calculator use? Why stop there?
Why not just give everybody an "A" no matter what they did?

...

I just wanted to say that taking away an obstacle solely for the sake of giving a person an easier path toward a better job is wrong in the context of college.

...

Your assumptions/perceptions are so different from mine, it is amusing. Perhaps in your experience, the educators who have their students use calculators are making their classes easier. But in my world...

My department has two camps. One would embrace your description of what belongs in TYC mathematics, and that camp includes the teachers who are well-known to be the easiest in the department. How easy? Well, one had a class of 51 Calc II students (the normal size is 35 students) with 100% retention and 100% success. A second instructor from this camp once remarked, without irony, that he had a perfect curve in his algebra class: 10 A's, 20 B's, and 10 C's (no D's, F's or W's).

Our college researcher discovered that these two were outliers in one interesting respect: their passing students had a significantly lower probability of passing their next math course from any other instructor than the students from all the other full-time members of the department.

The instructors in the second camp of my department do allow calculators, and they do de-emphasize some rote skills that have in the past been standard topics. But they do not describe what they are doing as lowering standards or as taking away obstacles to give students an easier path. They are instead replacing unnecessary paper-and-pencil skills with useful and more intellectually challenging skills of quantitative reasoning and problem solving. There is universal agreement among students, faculty, counselors, and administration that the most intellectuallly challenging classes to get through in the department are taught by members from this second camp.

This second camp views the changes in developmental math at CC's not as a result of K12 reform math movements, but as an extension of the calculus reform movement. The K12 math wars are not the same as the calculus math wars.

Allowing calculators does not mean making a class easier. De-emphasizing some rote skills to make room for increasing emphasis on critical thinking does not make a class easier. Developing mathematical ideas in real world contexts is not a watering-down of mathematics.

But there is a chance that some students who could not have succeeded when required to do all calculations by paper-and-pencil can actually flourish when allowed to focus on concepts and problem-solving because technology is carrying out the algorithms.

Bruce Yoshiwara
Los Angeles Pierce College

How do students view their tests in Blackboard

2008-09-18T06:53:17Z

Hi Everyone,

I use MML for all of my courses except one. For this one, I am using
Blackboard and need to find out how to let students review their tests
after the due date. I have looked everywhere. They can review the test
immediately upon submitting, but not after the due date. If I am
missing something, let me know.

Annette D. Hawkins, Ed. D.
Math Department Chair
Wayne Community College
3000 Wayne Memorial Drive
Goldsboro, NC 27534

"The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior
teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires." William Arthur Ward

E-̄Mail correspondence to and from this sender may be subject to the
North Carolina public records law and may be disclosed to third parties.

****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@... *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@... *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************

Review on Demand in College Algebra

2008-09-12T12:08:20Z

I am looking for information on review on demand in college algebra. We currently offer a 5 hour college algebra class with review where we are able to review any prerequisite skills that the students are lacking. I want to conduct some comparative analysis of this offering versus the traditional 3 hour class. I have not seen any literature or studies on review/remediation on demand. Please let me know if your college offers an extended time college algebra class and any supporting information you can offer. Also, if you are aware of any existing research that has been done on the topic, I would appreciate your sending that information my way.

Thanks!

Tim
--

Tim Chappell
Mathematics Instructor
MCC-Penn Valley
3201 S.W. Trafficway
Kansas City, Missouri 64111
P 816-759-4215
F 816-759-4611

****************************************************************************
* To post to the list: email mathedcc@... *
* To unsubscribe, email the message "unsubscribe mathedcc" to majordomo@... *
* Archives at http://mathforum.org/kb/forum.jspa?forumID=184 *
****************************************************************************