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Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:32:00PM +0200, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
>
> For example a beep is generated everytime gdm gets started during the
> bootup of a machine. I do not know anyone who would complain of that
Very good point, so why isn't that annoying? So surely gdm logins would
be ran more than installers, and if the gdm log in is not an issue,
well, why would the installation be?
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:34:49AM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Daniel Dalton, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:22:52 +1000, a écrit :
> > But, the beep would solve this. I know it wouldn't help on a laptop, but
> > still.
>
> Why wouldn't it help on a laptop?
No console tone generator (pc speaker)?
> If there is no internal speaker maybe
> you could use headphone?
Well, sure if it could go through the soundcard and use my actual laptop
speakers, ok.
Didn't think that was possible though?
Cheers,
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Daniel Dalton, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:49:52 +1000, a écrit :
> > If there is no internal speaker maybe
> > you could use headphone?
>
> Well, sure if it could go through the soundcard and use my actual laptop
> speakers, ok.
> Didn't think that was possible though?
Well, that depends on the motherboard/BIOS capabilities. On my laptop,
speaker beeps actually go through the soundcard automatically.
Samuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thursday 17 July 2008, Daniel Dalton wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:32:00PM +0200, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
> > For example a beep is generated everytime gdm gets started during the
> > bootup of a machine. I do not know anyone who would complain of that
>
> Very good point, so why isn't that annoying? So surely gdm logins would
> be ran more than installers, and if the gdm log in is not an issue,
> well, why would the installation be?
If it does that by default (which I'm not sure of) I would find that very
annoying. I'm a KDE user myself and luckily KDM does not do something as
silly as that.
Also, a quick google ("gdm beep") gave me this:
http://osdir.com/ml/linux.redhat.rhl.general/2003-11/msg02026.htmlhttp://error.wordpress.com/2005/11/03/gdm-please-dont-beep-at-login/https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/%2Bsource/gdm/%2Bbug/131126http://markmail.org/message/5ecwfmnzovmqw63tand tons more...
I have absolutely no problem with such features being available as
accessibility *options*, but having them enabled by default is just dumb.
Should we also all have huge fonts enabled by default and default high
contrast themes so that visually impaired users can read things
immediately after install?
I'm sorry folks, I have a lot of respect for the extra effort needed every
day to deal with life if you have a disability (of whatever form), but
you cannot expect the world to always change things to fit your needs.
For the installer there is always the option of having a custom
accessibility version which has every convenience you can think of
enabled by default. I know that that also has its downsides, but Debian
does make that relatively easy.
That option may have to be considered anyway for speakup support (in that
case it is image size considerations), but that discussion has not yet
really started.
For a version of the installer with full speech synthesis support, a
custom image would probably be the _only_ option.
Cheers,
FJP
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thursday 17 July 2008, Frans Pop wrote:
> I'm sorry folks, I have a lot of respect for the extra effort needed
> every day to deal with life if you have a disability (of whatever
> form), but you cannot expect the world to always change things to fit
> your needs.
Note that everything in my last mail (and in general) is just my personal
opinion and opinion as one of the members of the D-I team and not the
final opinion of the team as a whole. I'm not speaking "for the team"
here.
We need such discussions to see what people think and I would invite other
D-I team members to also give their optinion.
Cheers,
FJP
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hi!
As someone that can sometimes start the installer more than 30 times a
day (which is a lot more often than one usually hears the deadred GDM
beep), I would strongly prefer to avoid a starting beep.
Starting there:
- most people probably don't start this installer that often,
- when I really need to start the installer that often, it is with a
custom built image.
I think I could probably live with a local build configuration flag that
would deactivate the beep, similar to other configuration flags that are
substituted in the syslinux configuration file.
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 01:47:53PM +0200, Frans Pop wrote:
> For the installer there is always the option of having a custom
> accessibility version which has every convenience you can think of
> enabled by default. […]
>
> That option may have to be considered anyway for speakup support (in that
> case it is image size considerations), but that discussion has not yet
> really started.
>
> For a version of the installer with full speech synthesis support, a
> custom image would probably be the _only_ option.
One of the other things that we have discussed (but not it full length)
with Samuel after his talk during the last DebConf was about trying to
add AT-SPI or other GTK+ accessibility features in the graphical
installer. One of the issue we thought about was about the image size.
So, it would be another aspect that would benefit from a dedicated
image.
I am quite happy to be active in a free software distribution that is
working quite hard on the accessibiliy front. We already have specific
installation media for people who prefer a desktop manager to another,
and I would be very disapointed if it was not possible to provide
another installation medium more tied up for those who simply want a
system that is usable for them.
Cheers,
--
Jérémy Bobbio .''`.
lunar@... : :Ⓐ : # apt-get install anarchism
`. `'`
`-
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop wrote:
> I could see myself agreeing if you can come up with an implementation that
> only includes the beep for official builds (i.e. the addition of the beep
> is triggered by something in debian/rules).
I don't feel that making daily builds diverge here (or in any way
that is not strictly necessary) is a good idea.
For one thing, blind users surely have as many reasons to use a daily
build as anyone else.
--
see shy jo
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Jérémy Bobbio, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 18:57:10 +0200, a écrit :
> > For a version of the installer with full speech synthesis support, a
> > custom image would probably be the _only_ option.
>
> One of the other things that we have discussed (but not it full length)
> with Samuel after his talk during the last DebConf was about trying to
> add AT-SPI or other GTK+ accessibility features in the graphical
> installer. One of the issue we thought about was about the image size.
> So, it would be another aspect that would benefit from a dedicated
> image.
Yep.
Samuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Frans Pop < elendil@...> writes:
> (No need to CC me
>
> On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
>> I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about
>> installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't
>> complain if it could help others.
>
> It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations
> and even more boots of the installer during development.
For development we could put a variable to disable it, and it wouldn't
hurt since it would help blind people a lot.
I share the Samuel feeling that it would be good. Samuel could
provide an image for us to test and see how bad it would be.
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 08:33:36PM -0300, Otavio Salvador wrote:
> > It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations
> > and even more boots of the installer during development.
I intend doing very few installations, so don't really mind the
boot prompt not beeping. I know my hardware well enough to know that
the prompt is there, waiting, 3 seconds after the drive starts spinning.
It's only loading and running the MBR, not an entire OS. I posted a few
months back in the SpeakUP mailing list, about talking with grub's
maintainer about adding an audio feature to grub/lilo so we could have
some kind of audio feedback at the boot prompt. He replied that he
would discuss it, and thought it was a good idea. Maybe if more users
made similar requests. His addy is "William Pitcock
< nenolod@...>", or that's who I spoke with. We discussed
things like adding an audio beep feature that would increase in pitch as
you cursored down a menu listing, to using morse code to play out the
menu text. If there's anything in the works from the discussion, I
haven't heard anything.
Michael
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
I am not blind, but I would like the installer to beep each time it needs input. The monitor that is
used when I am installing Debian is located left of the monitor I normally use just outside my
sight. When I am trying to do other work during an install I would like the beep to tell me to look
over at the install monitor. I know that other people with a different set up may not like the
beeps. So, why not make it an option. Would that make everybody happy?
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Information Technology Unit
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Tel.: (405) 425-2549
Fax: (405) 425-2554
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Frans Pop wrote:
> On Thursday 17 July 2008, Frans Pop wrote:
>> I'm sorry folks, I have a lot of respect for the extra effort needed
>> every day to deal with life if you have a disability (of whatever
>> form), but you cannot expect the world to always change things to fit
>> your needs.
>
> Note that everything in my last mail (and in general) is just my personal
> opinion and opinion as one of the members of the D-I team and not the
> final opinion of the team as a whole. I'm not speaking "for the team"
> here.
>
> We need such discussions to see what people think and I would invite other
> D-I team members to also give their optinion.
>
> Cheers,
> FJP
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hello,
Foreign White Devil, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 18:06:18 -0700, a écrit :
> I posted a few
> months back in the SpeakUP mailing list, about talking with grub's
> maintainer about adding an audio feature to grub/lilo so we could have
> some kind of audio feedback at the boot prompt.
That's already in since a long time: just put ^G characters in the menu
entries. You can also use the print command to beep just once.
Samuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Otavio Salvador, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:33:36 -0300, a écrit :
> Frans Pop < elendil@...> writes:
> > (No need to CC me
> >
> > On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> >> I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about
> >> installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't
> >> complain if it could help others.
> >
> > It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations
> > and even more boots of the installer during development.
>
> For development we could put a variable to disable it, and it wouldn't
> hurt since it would help blind people a lot.
>
> I share the Samuel feeling that it would be good. Samuel could
> provide an image for us to test and see how bad it would be.
Ok, it wasn't "just" putting a ^G in the menu, because syslinux doesn't
have beep support in graphical mode...
Anyway, I've put an image on
http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-beep.isoSamuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Stephen Frazier, le Sat 19 Jul 2008 23:11:36 -0500, a écrit :
> I know that other people with a different set up may not like the
> beeps. So, why not make it an option.
An option at debian-installer build time you mean?
If there was a way to pass an option "dont beep" to an already existing
boot image, we wouldn't really need for a beep, we could use that same
way to pass accessibility options...
Samuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 03:39:27PM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> That's already in since a long time: just put ^G characters in the menu
> entries. You can also use the print command to beep just once.
I gathered all that, and please don't take offense for my thinking of it
as just a 'quick-n-dirty hack,' which was why I contacted grub/lilo's
maintainer. While I in no way expect speech at the boot prompt,
differing beep tones should be possible, as well as toggling on serial
support for blind users, so their hardware synthesizers say what's going
on. Picture this:
(screen clears)
You have chosen to install the gnome-orca package which provides support
for the visually impared. Would you like grub/lilo to produce an
audible beep at the boot prompt when the computer is powered up?
<Yes> <No>
Yes: grub detected...
Grub is capable of echoing it's display to a hardware synthesizer
connected to a serial port, allowing blind users to hear boot messages.
Would you like to configure grub for serial port communications?
<Yes> <No>
No: Adding a bell character to the boot prompt...done!
(screen clears again)
After the computer has started and is ready to use, would you like
gnome-orca to provide audible feedback at the login prompt?
<Yes> <No>
Yes: Gnome Display Manager detected...
Adding gnome-orca support to gdm...Done!
::End::
I, for one, haven't quite figured out grub yet. I'm an old lilo
user, so adding a bell character to header message.txt file mentioned in
lilo.conf would be no problem at all, and a pretty safe bet that I won't
hose my system doing it.
Michael
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hello,
Gaijin, le Sun 20 Jul 2008 14:13:42 -0700, a écrit :
> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 03:39:27PM +0100, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > That's already in since a long time: just put ^G characters in the menu
> > entries. You can also use the print command to beep just once.
>
> I gathered all that, and please don't take offense for my thinking of it
> as just a 'quick-n-dirty hack,'
Yes it is, because grub1 is feature-freezed. Grub2 has fancy beep
support, and supporting speech is just a matter of writing the support,
as usual.
> Picture this:
Errr, what you describe is something to happen during debian
installation, isn't it? Please do not mix discussions, as it becomes
hard to follow :)
Yes, that's a sort of thing we could want to do in the future. Again,
it just "needs to be done", yet another thing on the TODO list...
Samuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Hello,
Still no feedback on this?
Samuel Thibault, le Sun 20 Jul 2008 15:47:18 +0100, a écrit :
> Otavio Salvador, le Thu 17 Jul 2008 20:33:36 -0300, a écrit :
> > Frans Pop < elendil@...> writes:
> > > On Thursday 17 July 2008, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> > >> I do agree it is annoying, but as Sebastien said, it's just about
> > >> installation. I've asked a few people, they said they wouldn't
> > >> complain if it could help others.
> > >
> > > It's annoying for me amongst others. I do huge numbers of installations
> > > and even more boots of the installer during development.
> >
> > For development we could put a variable to disable it, and it wouldn't
> > hurt since it would help blind people a lot.
> >
> > I share the Samuel feeling that it would be good. Samuel could
> > provide an image for us to test and see how bad it would be.
>
> Ok, it wasn't "just" putting a ^G in the menu, because syslinux doesn't
> have beep support in graphical mode...
>
> Anyway, I've put an image on
> http://brl.thefreecat.org/mini-beep.isoSamuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit :
> Still no feedback on this?
(I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility,
the feature was greatly appreciated).
Samuel
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Re: Make syslinux beep?
Samuel Thibault < samuel.thibault@...> writes:
> Samuel Thibault, le Tue 12 Aug 2008 00:10:26 +0100, a écrit :
>> Still no feedback on this?
>
> (I mean feedback from debian-boot, I got some from debian-accessibility,
> the feature was greatly appreciated).
It would be acceptable for release images. Could to work on a patch to
only make it when we're doing a release? (no dailies or local builds)
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---------------------------------------------
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