Mac OS X

[John Selverian]

Jeroen,

If your still willing to make a non-X11 Mac version I'll kick in $1000
towards a Mac.  Are there any other supporters out there?

===========================
John S.
 



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[Anders F Björklund]

John Selverian wrote:

> Jeroen,
>
> If your still willing to make a non-X11 Mac version I'll kick in $1000
> towards a Mac.  Are there any other supporters out there?

A few years ago, I started out on a Mac OS port of FOX (without X11).
It used Carbon, and an earlier version of Mac OS X (or Mac OS 9 even)

One problem that it had with FOX was that the "#ifndef WIN32" it uses
can stand for either #ifdef X11 (UI) or #ifdef UNIX (OS). Still there.

The "macintosh" part of the FOX port was later scrapped, so it's using
the regular "unix" things for operating system support outside of UI.

Most of the other problems concerning window parenting and encodings
are no longer any issue for modern versions of Mac OS X (10.3 and up)


Anyway, the code should still be available. I ended up going with the
X11.app version for Mac OS X, so it was never finished nor released...

But here is what it used to look like, running FOX 1.6.20 or something:
http://www.algonet.se/~afb/fox/fox-groupbox-mac.png ("Classic" theme)

Another possibility that was discussed on this mailing list last year,
was starting over with Cocoa and Objective-C++ instead of using this.

I think both approaches has their merits, Carbon would be OK for 1.6 -
but Cocoa is most likely the way to go for FOX 1.8 due to 64-bit etc ?

--anders

PS. I think the new GTK+ port is a nice example of how to do it.
     http://developer.imendio.com/projects/gtk-macosx/ (in Cocoa)


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[Lothar Scholz]

Hello Anders,

Friday, August 29, 2008, 2:17:02 PM, you wrote:

AFB> One problem that it had with FOX was that the "#ifndef WIN32" it uses
AFB> can stand for either #ifdef X11 (UI) or #ifdef UNIX (OS). Still there.

Yes i remember and again Jeroen was blocking even this small
initiative. He is the real problem behind FOX non development
right now.

AFB> Another possibility that was discussed on this mailing list last year,
AFB> was starting over with Cocoa and Objective-C++ instead of using this.

Yes, Carbon is really dangerous for new projects now because his
Steveness announced the end of carbon will come.

The real problem is that FOX like many toolkits (QT and GTK) is too low level
and is having too much X11 ways to do thinks. This is already a real
problem for windows and windows<->X11 are pretty close together.


--
Best regards,
 Lothar                            mailto:llothar@...


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[Anders F Björklund]

Lothar Scholz wrote:

> AFB> Another possibility that was discussed on this mailing list  
> last year,
> AFB> was starting over with Cocoa and Objective-C++ instead of  
> using this.
>
> Yes, Carbon is really dangerous for new projects now because his
> Steveness announced the end of carbon will come.

The end of Carbon has been coming for years, the biggest recent
change was that there won't be any 64-bit support for it either:

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/ 
Carbon64BitGuide/
     "If you want to create a 64-bit application for Mac OS X,
      you need to use Cocoa to implement its user interface."
http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ 
Cocoa64BitGuide/

And since the old code I had kicking around still used QuickDraw,
it's even more dead as it would need to use CoreGraphics/Quartz...

> The real problem is that FOX like many toolkits (QT and GTK) is too  
> low level
> and is having too much X11 ways to do thinks. This is already a real
> problem for windows and windows<->X11 are pretty close together.

That's more of a philosophical problem as I see it, though...
To me that means that FOX will look the same on all platforms.

But I thought that was in the design for FOX (like Qt* and GTK+),
instead of looking native like for instance SWT and wxWidgets do.

* ok, you can skin/theme Qt to _look_ like Aqua (just like Swing)
   but that doesn't mean it'll also feel exactly the same, though


It's very possible to get FOX running on Mac OS X without X11,
so to me it's only a question of whether it would be worth it.
Since it won't look like the other Aqua applications anyway, it
was mostly about "not having a X" and cutting down dependencies.

But I agree with you that the low level of the library made it
easier to fit with the old Carbon and old pixel-based QuickDraw,
than having it cooperate with Cocoa and the vector-based Quartz.
But at any rate, it should be easier than what Mac OS 9 was :-)

--anders


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[Lothar Scholz]

Hello Anders,

AFB> But I thought that was in the design for FOX (like Qt* and GTK+),
AFB> instead of looking native like for instance SWT and wxWidgets do.

AFB> * ok, you can skin/theme Qt to _look_ like Aqua (just like Swing)
AFB>    but that doesn't mean it'll also feel exactly the same, though

Yes, Apperance Manager is just the look. But even on MacOSX at least
the Multimedia Apps don't look Aqua. They have black or metalic
chrome outfits or other "widget" like outfit.

But i meant the techniques for example that FOX
(but GTK is much worse) tries to emulate the terrible complex
focus events of X11. And is trying to stay with the X11 behaviour
instead of addapting the techniques to fit all platforms.

Then the Drag&Drop API is way to low. The cursor handling is stupid
and total outdated and the icons even much much worse (hey, one icon
for all resolutions and states? No icon overlays? A real Toyrus
toolkit).

Still no drag&drop from the outside. I give a shit if this would
require ActiveX items. It is just a very old updated bad X11
implementation.

Selection handling is another thing. I can't get keep the selection in
two different windows because it is not X11 style.

AFB> It's very possible to get FOX running on Mac OS X without X11,
AFB> so to me it's only a question of whether it would be worth it.
AFB> Since it won't look like the other Aqua applications anyway, it
AFB> was mostly about "not having a X" and cutting down dependencies.

Well where is it worth for new applications to use FOX?

I will definitely look at the new Delphis version and
see if it isn't time to use Delphi for Windows and Cocao on Mac with
a new toplevel application toolkit. Tomorrow 3nd september they
will publish a trial version.

I think FOX is done, finished, game over.

--
Best regards,
 Lothar                            mailto:llothar@...


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