MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver

[M. Adam Davis-2]

Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver module
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967

I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this particular
implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on a variety of factors,
but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure so I know whether to
target it out of the gate, or build in support for the XBEE modules in
case testing comes back with dismal numbers.

The data sheet appears to have lots of info regarding receiver,
transmitter, and antenna performance, but I don't know how to turn
that into "ideal" distance.

Thanks in advance!

-Adam

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[Timothy J. Weber-2]

M. Adam Davis wrote:

> Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver module
> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967
>
> I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this particular
> implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on a variety of factors,
> but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure so I know whether to
> target it out of the gate, or build in support for the XBEE modules in
> case testing comes back with dismal numbers.
>
> The data sheet appears to have lots of info regarding receiver,
> transmitter, and antenna performance, but I don't know how to turn
> that into "ideal" distance.

The data sheet does say "Up to 400m Range (outdoor, line-of-sight)",
which seems pretty impressive on ~20 mA.  And by impressive I mean not
very plausible - but I'll be interested to see.  At $10 in singles, this
could give the XBee a real challenge.
--
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http://timothyweber.org
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[M. Adam Davis-2]

Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely missed that
right on the summary page!

1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll probably have to
support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole bunch of
things.

Nicely low powered, though.

Thanks for looking!

-Adam

On 8/4/08, Timothy Weber <tw@...> wrote:

> M. Adam Davis wrote:
> > Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver module
> > http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this particular
> > implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on a variety of factors,
> > but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure so I know whether to
> > target it out of the gate, or build in support for the XBEE modules in
> > case testing comes back with dismal numbers.
> >
> > The data sheet appears to have lots of info regarding receiver,
> > transmitter, and antenna performance, but I don't know how to turn
> > that into "ideal" distance.
>
> The data sheet does say "Up to 400m Range (outdoor, line-of-sight)",
> which seems pretty impressive on ~20 mA.  And by impressive I mean not
> very plausible - but I'll be interested to see.  At $10 in singles, this
> could give the XBee a real challenge.
> --
> Timothy J. Weber
> http://timothyweber.org
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>

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[Timothy J. Weber-2]

M. Adam Davis wrote:
> Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely missed that
> right on the summary page!

I did the same thing some weeks ago, so I'm glad I looked again today -
maybe the data sheet is so in-flux, phrases appear and disappear from it
as it's viewed by different observers...  I was looking after reading
about it in the Microchip newsletter, and had a hard time finding
anything about it on the web site, so I get the impression it's still
very raw as a product (not just new).

> 1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll probably have to
> support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole bunch of
> things.
>
> Nicely low powered, though.

Yes - certainly compared to the XBee's 100 m on 45 mA.  (XBee is 1/4 the
range on twice the power for twice the price!)  The greater range of the
XBee-Pro is the complicating factor (1500 m on 215 mA).

I don't have an excuse, ahem, motivating project for these right now, so
I'm eager to hear from whoever tries them out first.
--
Timothy J. Weber
http://timothyweber.org
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[Alan Smith-10]

BTW...it is real.  I've seen it, touched it....not used it.  Waiting for a demo unit to do the real range tests, much what I did with the Micrel units, that also go for $10, but of course are not zigbee


--- On Mon, 8/4/08, M. Adam Davis <stienman@...> wrote:

> From: M. Adam Davis <stienman@...>
> Subject: Re: [PIC] MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
> Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 1:10 PM
> Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely
> missed that
> right on the summary page!
>
> 1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll
> probably have to
> support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole
> bunch of
> things.
>
> Nicely low powered, though.
>
> Thanks for looking!
>
> -Adam
>
> On 8/4/08, Timothy Weber <tw@...> wrote:
> > M. Adam Davis wrote:
> > > Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver
> module
> > >
> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967
> > >
> > > I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this
> particular
> > > implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on
> a variety of factors,
> > > but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure
> so I know whether to
> > > target it out of the gate, or build in support
> for the XBEE modules in
> > > case testing comes back with dismal numbers.
> > >
> > > The data sheet appears to have lots of info
> regarding receiver,
> > > transmitter, and antenna performance, but I
> don't know how to turn
> > > that into "ideal" distance.
> >
> > The data sheet does say "Up to 400m Range
> (outdoor, line-of-sight)",
> > which seems pretty impressive on ~20 mA.  And by
> impressive I mean not
> > very plausible - but I'll be interested to see.
> At $10 in singles, this
> > could give the XBee a real challenge.
> > --
> > Timothy J. Weber
> > http://timothyweber.org
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
>
> --
> EARTH DAY 2008
> Tuesday April 22
> Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
> http://www.driveslowly.org
> --
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> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

     
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[Funny N.]

the blue tooth modules are cheap now. Have you considered about it?

 Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com



----- Original Message ----
From: alan smith <micro_eng2@...>
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclist@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 3:53:10 PM
Subject: Re: [PIC] MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver

BTW...it is real.  I've seen it, touched it....not used it.  Waiting for a demo unit to do the real range tests, much what I did with the Micrel units, that also go for $10, but of course are not zigbee


--- On Mon, 8/4/08, M. Adam Davis <stienman@...> wrote:

> From: M. Adam Davis <stienman@...>
> Subject: Re: [PIC] MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
> Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 1:10 PM
> Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely
> missed that
> right on the summary page!
>
> 1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll
> probably have to
> support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole
> bunch of
> things.
>
> Nicely low powered, though.
>
> Thanks for looking!
>
> -Adam
>
> On 8/4/08, Timothy Weber <tw@...> wrote:
> > M. Adam Davis wrote:
> > > Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver
> module
> > >
> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967
> > >
> > > I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this
> particular
> > > implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on
> a variety of factors,
> > > but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure
> so I know whether to
> > > target it out of the gate, or build in support
> for the XBEE modules in
> > > case testing comes back with dismal numbers.
> > >
> > > The data sheet appears to have lots of info
> regarding receiver,
> > > transmitter, and antenna performance, but I
> don't know how to turn
> > > that into "ideal" distance.
> >
> > The data sheet does say "Up to 400m Range
> (outdoor, line-of-sight)",
> > which seems pretty impressive on ~20 mA.  And by
> impressive I mean not
> > very plausible - but I'll be interested to see.
> At $10 in singles, this
> > could give the XBee a real challenge.
> > --
> > Timothy J. Weber
> > http://timothyweber.org
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
>
> --
> EARTH DAY 2008
> Tuesday April 22
> Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
> http://www.driveslowly.org
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

     
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[Sean Breheny]

Beware the range specs. They are probably using different metrics.
What kind of antenna is assumed for the microchip ones?

The real numbers to compare are receive sensitivity for a particular
bit error rate, and transmit power. Compare these versus TX and RX
power consumption. Beware that for the XBEE (not pro) the RX current
is GREATER than the TX current.

Sean


On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Timothy Weber <tw@...> wrote:

> M. Adam Davis wrote:
>> Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely missed that
>> right on the summary page!
>
> I did the same thing some weeks ago, so I'm glad I looked again today -
> maybe the data sheet is so in-flux, phrases appear and disappear from it
> as it's viewed by different observers...  I was looking after reading
> about it in the Microchip newsletter, and had a hard time finding
> anything about it on the web site, so I get the impression it's still
> very raw as a product (not just new).
>
>> 1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll probably have to
>> support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole bunch of
>> things.
>>
>> Nicely low powered, though.
>
> Yes - certainly compared to the XBee's 100 m on 45 mA.  (XBee is 1/4 the
> range on twice the power for twice the price!)  The greater range of the
> XBee-Pro is the complicating factor (1500 m on 215 mA).
>
> I don't have an excuse, ahem, motivating project for these right now, so
> I'm eager to hear from whoever tries them out first.
> --
> Timothy J. Weber
> http://timothyweber.org
> --
> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>

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[M. Adam Davis-2]

No, strikes against bluetooth for this design are
 - doesn't (IIRC) support peer to peer networks
 - much shorter range
 - higher power consumption (due to the high data rate and stack overhead)
 - the stack is overkill for this application
 - still too expensive
 - more components for higher bandwidth (more expensive for better quality)
 - requires a seperate microcontroller to run the bluetooth stack
(more components, higher cost, more PCB real estate)

Further, I haven't seen a bluetooth module I can buy in quantities of
one for $10, whereas $10  802.15.4 radios are starting to pop up all
over the place.  I don't even need the full zigbee stack, just very
simple peer to peer radio packets.

Bluetooth is great for many applications, but it isn't the right tool
for this one as far as I can tell.  If I'm wrong I'd certainly like to
know, so tell me if my points are incorrect or mitigated by other
positive factors.

-Adam

On 8/5/08, Funny NYPD <funnynypd@...> wrote:

> the blue tooth modules are cheap now. Have you considered about it?
>
>  Funny N.
> Au Group Electronics, New Bedford, MA, http://www.AuElectronics.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: alan smith <micro_eng2@...>
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <piclist@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 3:53:10 PM
> Subject: Re: [PIC] MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver
>
> BTW...it is real.  I've seen it, touched it....not used it.  Waiting for a demo unit to do the real range tests, much what I did with the Micrel units, that also go for $10, but of course are not zigbee
>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/4/08, M. Adam Davis <stienman@...> wrote:
>
> > From: M. Adam Davis <stienman@...>
> > Subject: Re: [PIC] MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver
> > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
> > Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 1:10 PM
> > Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely
> > missed that
> > right on the summary page!
> >
> > 1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll
> > probably have to
> > support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole
> > bunch of
> > things.
> >
> > Nicely low powered, though.
> >
> > Thanks for looking!
> >
> > -Adam
> >
> > On 8/4/08, Timothy Weber <tw@...> wrote:
> > > M. Adam Davis wrote:
> > > > Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver
> > module
> > > >
> > http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967
> > > >
> > > > I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this
> > particular
> > > > implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on
> > a variety of factors,
> > > > but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure
> > so I know whether to
> > > > target it out of the gate, or build in support
> > for the XBEE modules in
> > > > case testing comes back with dismal numbers.
> > > >
> > > > The data sheet appears to have lots of info
> > regarding receiver,
> > > > transmitter, and antenna performance, but I
> > don't know how to turn
> > > > that into "ideal" distance.
> > >
> > > The data sheet does say "Up to 400m Range
> > (outdoor, line-of-sight)",
> > > which seems pretty impressive on ~20 mA.  And by
> > impressive I mean not
> > > very plausible - but I'll be interested to see.
> > At $10 in singles, this
> > > could give the XBee a real challenge.
> > > --
> > > Timothy J. Weber
> > > http://timothyweber.org
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > EARTH DAY 2008
> > Tuesday April 22
> > Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
> > http://www.driveslowly.org
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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>

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[M. Adam Davis-2]

On 8/5/08, Sean Breheny <shb7@...> wrote:
> Beware the range specs. They are probably using different metrics.
> What kind of antenna is assumed for the microchip ones?

Oh yes, I take RF range measurements with a 1kg grain of salt.  The
antenna is a PCB antenna:

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/images/mchpsiteimages/Module_Transparent_sm.jpg

> The real numbers to compare are receive sensitivity for a particular
> bit error rate, and transmit power. Compare these versus TX and RX
> power consumption. Beware that for the XBEE (not pro) the RX current
> is GREATER than the TX current.

That's really good to know.  I'm anxious to try them out in field
tests.  One advantage to MChip's solution is it's easy to integrate
the part into one's own design.  The xbee modules are large for this
application, and they require significant effort to put the parts on
one's own PCB to save space (not to mention they have a seperate micro
to run the zigbee stack).

-Adam

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[Peter Loron]

Anybody found a supplier for these things? Microchip Direct says  
they'll be in stock late in August. Unfortunately the shipping
+handling charges for two boards doubles the cost of the order. Sigh.

Mouser and Digikey say they wont be shipping until December!

-Pete

On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:53 PM, alan smith wrote:

> BTW...it is real.  I've seen it, touched it....not used it.  Waiting  
> for a demo unit to do the real range tests, much what I did with the  
> Micrel units, that also go for $10, but of course are not zigbee
>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/4/08, M. Adam Davis <stienman@...> wrote:
>
>> From: M. Adam Davis <stienman@...>
>> Subject: Re: [PIC] MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver
>> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
>> Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 1:10 PM
>> Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely
>> missed that
>> right on the summary page!
>>
>> 1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll
>> probably have to
>> support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole
>> bunch of
>> things.
>>
>> Nicely low powered, though.
>>
>> Thanks for looking!
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>> On 8/4/08, Timothy Weber <tw@...> wrote:
>>> M. Adam Davis wrote:
>>>> Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver
>> module
>>>>
>> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this
>> particular
>>>> implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on
>> a variety of factors,
>>>> but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure
>> so I know whether to
>>>> target it out of the gate, or build in support
>> for the XBEE modules in
>>>> case testing comes back with dismal numbers.
>>>>
>>>> The data sheet appears to have lots of info
>> regarding receiver,
>>>> transmitter, and antenna performance, but I
>> don't know how to turn
>>>> that into "ideal" distance.
>>>
>>> The data sheet does say "Up to 400m Range
>> (outdoor, line-of-sight)",
>>> which seems pretty impressive on ~20 mA.  And by
>> impressive I mean not
>>> very plausible - but I'll be interested to see.
>> At $10 in singles, this
>>> could give the XBee a real challenge.
>>> --
>>> Timothy J. Weber
>>> http://timothyweber.org
>>> --
>>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>>> View/change your membership options at
>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> EARTH DAY 2008
>> Tuesday April 22
>> Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
>> http://www.driveslowly.org
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
>
>
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[M. Adam Davis-2]

Ouch!  I hope the contest administrators can russle some up for my
project - otherwise I'll be using fewer Microchip products in the
competition, and I'm sure they want to avoid that!

Guess I'd better email them now, rather than waiting...

-Adam

On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 6:59 PM, Peter Loron <peterl@...> wrote:

> Anybody found a supplier for these things? Microchip Direct says
> they'll be in stock late in August. Unfortunately the shipping
> +handling charges for two boards doubles the cost of the order. Sigh.
>
> Mouser and Digikey say they wont be shipping until December!
>
> -Pete
>
> On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:53 PM, alan smith wrote:
>
>> BTW...it is real.  I've seen it, touched it....not used it.  Waiting
>> for a demo unit to do the real range tests, much what I did with the
>> Micrel units, that also go for $10, but of course are not zigbee
>>
>>
>> --- On Mon, 8/4/08, M. Adam Davis <stienman@...> wrote:
>>
>>> From: M. Adam Davis <stienman@...>
>>> Subject: Re: [PIC] MRF24J40MA - Microchip's 802.15.4 transceiver
>>> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist@...>
>>> Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 1:10 PM
>>> Shoot, I thought I read it carefully and yet I completely
>>> missed that
>>> right on the summary page!
>>>
>>> 1/4 mile in open air under ideal conditions...  I'll
>>> probably have to
>>> support both this and the xbee, which complicates a whole
>>> bunch of
>>> things.
>>>
>>> Nicely low powered, though.
>>>
>>> Thanks for looking!
>>>
>>> -Adam
>>>
>>> On 8/4/08, Timothy Weber <tw@...> wrote:
>>>> M. Adam Davis wrote:
>>>>> Regarding Microchip's new RF transceiver
>>> module
>>>>>
>>> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en535967
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering if anyone knows the range of this
>>> particular
>>>>> implementation?  I realize it depends greatly on
>>> a variety of factors,
>>>>> but I'm hoping someone has a ballpark figure
>>> so I know whether to
>>>>> target it out of the gate, or build in support
>>> for the XBEE modules in
>>>>> case testing comes back with dismal numbers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The data sheet appears to have lots of info
>>> regarding receiver,
>>>>> transmitter, and antenna performance, but I
>>> don't know how to turn
>>>>> that into "ideal" distance.
>>>>
>>>> The data sheet does say "Up to 400m Range
>>> (outdoor, line-of-sight)",
>>>> which seems pretty impressive on ~20 mA.  And by
>>> impressive I mean not
>>>> very plausible - but I'll be interested to see.
>>> At $10 in singles, this
>>>> could give the XBee a real challenge.
>>>> --
>>>> Timothy J. Weber
>>>> http://timothyweber.org
>>>> --
>>>> http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>>>> View/change your membership options at
>>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> EARTH DAY 2008
>>> Tuesday April 22
>>> Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
>>> http://www.driveslowly.org
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--
EARTH DAY 2008
Tuesday April 22
Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
http://www.driveslowly.org
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