Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jeff Shanab]

I have been in communication with one of the Chinese lithium-ion battery
companies. Off and on and through a email translator I think, but it was
one I found on alibaba and they sent me some info. "Hipower"
http://www.chinabatteries.net/www/en/prod5.htm

Claims are typical and generic "over 6-7 years up to 2000 cycles
(80%DOD)" Living up to us to interpret that as 80 dod per cycle or 200
cycles to 80% reaining capacity.
2C fast charge to 85%
5C-10C discharge

The charts show 1000 cycles chargeing and discharging at 1C to 100% DOD
and the graph goes from 100% up a few points then tapers off linearly
down to about 95% @ 1000 cycles

PDFs off charts are very lacking and say 3C max for 15seconds. PFFT and
no apecs per cell size :-(



Chargers and BMS for some assembled packs they sell.
They gave me a price list however.  1.5ah/USD for custom packs
the price list starts at 12V10Ah for $60
and goes to 300V600ah for $90,000 !
144V10-0ah is $7200

Can't tell if prices include BMS and charger, info page looks like it
does, price sheet doesn't.




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[Jukka Järvinen]

They have very similar looking cells that what TS is selling. Did you
really mean 1,5Ah/USD ? Not 1,5 USD/Ah ?

If so the price is VERY attractive. But where they get their LiFePO4
material from ? Are they importable ?

-Jukka

Jeff Shanab kirjoitti:

> I have been in communication with one of the Chinese lithium-ion battery
> companies. Off and on and through a email translator I think, but it was
> one I found on alibaba and they sent me some info. "Hipower"
> http://www.chinabatteries.net/www/en/prod5.htm
>
> Claims are typical and generic "over 6-7 years up to 2000 cycles
> (80%DOD)" Living up to us to interpret that as 80 dod per cycle or 200
> cycles to 80% reaining capacity.
> 2C fast charge to 85%
> 5C-10C discharge
>
> The charts show 1000 cycles chargeing and discharging at 1C to 100% DOD
> and the graph goes from 100% up a few points then tapers off linearly
> down to about 95% @ 1000 cycles
>
> PDFs off charts are very lacking and say 3C max for 15seconds. PFFT and
> no apecs per cell size :-(
>
>
>
> Chargers and BMS for some assembled packs they sell.
> They gave me a price list however.  1.5ah/USD for custom packs
> the price list starts at 12V10Ah for $60
> and goes to 300V600ah for $90,000 !
> 144V10-0ah is $7200
>
> Can't tell if prices include BMS and charger, info page looks like it
> does, price sheet doesn't.
>
>
>
>
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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[Stephen West-2]

The prices Jeff quotes indicate around $1.50 / Ah, eg $60 for 4 x 10Ah and
$7200 for 45 x 100 Ah.

Steve

On 27/06/08 6:25 PM, "Jukka Järvinen" <jukka.jarvinen@...> wrote:

> They have very similar looking cells that what TS is selling. Did you
> really mean 1,5Ah/USD ? Not 1,5 USD/Ah ?
>
> If so the price is VERY attractive. But where they get their LiFePO4
> material from ? Are they importable ?
>
> -Jukka
>
> Jeff Shanab kirjoitti:
>> I have been in communication with one of the Chinese lithium-ion battery
>> companies. Off and on and through a email translator I think, but it was
>> one I found on alibaba and they sent me some info. "Hipower"
>> http://www.chinabatteries.net/www/en/prod5.htm
>>
>> Claims are typical and generic "over 6-7 years up to 2000 cycles
>> (80%DOD)" Living up to us to interpret that as 80 dod per cycle or 200
>> cycles to 80% reaining capacity.
>> 2C fast charge to 85%
>> 5C-10C discharge
>>
>> The charts show 1000 cycles chargeing and discharging at 1C to 100% DOD
>> and the graph goes from 100% up a few points then tapers off linearly
>> down to about 95% @ 1000 cycles
>>
>> PDFs off charts are very lacking and say 3C max for 15seconds. PFFT and
>> no apecs per cell size :-(
>>
>>
>>
>> Chargers and BMS for some assembled packs they sell.
>> They gave me a price list however.  1.5ah/USD for custom packs
>> the price list starts at 12V10Ah for $60
>> and goes to 300V600ah for $90,000 !
>> 144V10-0ah is $7200
>>
>> Can't tell if prices include BMS and charger, info page looks like it
>> does, price sheet doesn't.

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[Jukka Järvinen]

That's what I thought too. But wanted to clarify it.

So the price is very near TS pricing.

These cells need to be tested...

-Jukka

Stephen West kirjoitti:

> The prices Jeff quotes indicate around $1.50 / Ah, eg $60 for 4 x 10Ah and
> $7200 for 45 x 100 Ah.
>
> Steve
>
> On 27/06/08 6:25 PM, "Jukka Järvinen" <jukka.jarvinen@...> wrote:
>
>> They have very similar looking cells that what TS is selling. Did you
>> really mean 1,5Ah/USD ? Not 1,5 USD/Ah ?
>>
>> If so the price is VERY attractive. But where they get their LiFePO4
>> material from ? Are they importable ?
>>
>> -Jukka
>>
>> Jeff Shanab kirjoitti:
>>> I have been in communication with one of the Chinese lithium-ion battery
>>> companies. Off and on and through a email translator I think, but it was
>>> one I found on alibaba and they sent me some info. "Hipower"
>>> http://www.chinabatteries.net/www/en/prod5.htm
>>>
>>> Claims are typical and generic "over 6-7 years up to 2000 cycles
>>> (80%DOD)" Living up to us to interpret that as 80 dod per cycle or 200
>>> cycles to 80% reaining capacity.
>>> 2C fast charge to 85%
>>> 5C-10C discharge
>>>
>>> The charts show 1000 cycles chargeing and discharging at 1C to 100% DOD
>>> and the graph goes from 100% up a few points then tapers off linearly
>>> down to about 95% @ 1000 cycles
>>>
>>> PDFs off charts are very lacking and say 3C max for 15seconds. PFFT and
>>> no apecs per cell size :-(
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Chargers and BMS for some assembled packs they sell.
>>> They gave me a price list however.  1.5ah/USD for custom packs
>>> the price list starts at 12V10Ah for $60
>>> and goes to 300V600ah for $90,000 !
>>> 144V10-0ah is $7200
>>>
>>> Can't tell if prices include BMS and charger, info page looks like it
>>> does, price sheet doesn't.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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[me2]

On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 23:05 -0700, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Chargers and BMS for some assembled packs they sell.
> They gave me a price list however.  1.5ah/USD for custom packs
> the price list starts at 12V10Ah for $60
> and goes to 300V600ah for $90,000 !
> 144V10-0ah is $7200
>
> Can't tell if prices include BMS and charger, info page looks like it
> does, price sheet doesn't.

300V x 600AHr x 80% = 144 KWHr, usable.

$90K/144 = $625 per usable KWHr.

I thought someone said that Tesla was getting its batteries for $300/
KWHr.

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[Neon John]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:44:38 -0600, Alternative Energy Guy
<altenguy@...> wrote:

>On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 23:05 -0700, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>> Chargers and BMS for some assembled packs they sell.
>> They gave me a price list however.  1.5ah/USD for custom packs
>> the price list starts at 12V10Ah for $60
>> and goes to 300V600ah for $90,000 !
>> 144V10-0ah is $7200
>>
>> Can't tell if prices include BMS and charger, info page looks like it
>> does, price sheet doesn't.
>
>300V x 600AHr x 80% = 144 KWHr, usable.
>
>$90K/144 = $625 per usable KWHr.

I ran the price of the 18650 cells offered here:

http://www.szwholesale.com/18650-32vrechargeable1865032v-p-1139.html?osCsid=10430e3440832a29d3d4c0be552642ab

and got $439/kWh.

>
>I thought someone said that Tesla was getting its batteries for $300/
>KWHr.

One can safely assume that if one is  buying thousands of cells at a time, the
above "retail" price could probably be cut in half.  So Tesla, with its
reputation for lies, exaggerations and obfuscation, probably is getting its
CELLS for that price but certainly not a battery pack with BMS and
interconnects.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
You have a magnetic personality... That must be why all your mental floppies are blank.

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[me2]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 10:17 -0400, Neon John wrote:

> I ran the price of the 18650 cells offered here:
>
> http://www.szwholesale.com/18650-32vrechargeable1865032v-p-1139.html?osCsid=10430e3440832a29d3d4c0be552642ab
>
> and got $439/kWh.

I always wonder about quality when buying from a distributor like that.
It makes them look like surplus instead of a brand name product.  I
wonder if they are manufacturing defects that are still operational ?



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[Jeff Shanab]

>
> On Thu, 2008-06-26 at 23:05 -0700, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>  
>> > Chargers and BMS for some assembled packs they sell.
>> > They gave me a price list however.  1.5ah/USD for custom packs
>> > the price list starts at 12V10Ah for $60
>> > and goes to 300V600ah for $90,000 !
>> > 144V10-0ah is $7200
>> >
>> > Can't tell if prices include BMS and charger, info page looks like it
>> > does, price sheet doesn't.
>>    
>
> 300V x 600AHr x 80% = 144 KWHr, usable.
>  

LOL, is that really 4400 lbs of lithium-ion???
> $90K/144 = $625 per usable KWHr.
>
> I thought someone said that Tesla was getting its batteries for $300/
> KWHr.
>  

What worries me as much as the "Chinese Factor" is the amp capacity.  It
is just too hard to tell  from the documentation but it looks like the
same problem I see over and over again with the larger cells. In some
areas they say 5C-10C but other areas and all charts are at or under 1C.
1C continuous, 3C for 15 seconds seems typical for the larger format
cells. They have 10C,1,2,3,4,5C curves and the 5C curves sag to a very
level 2.95V, sweet. the 10C chart is unreadable.

If 5C is avail, that changes the whole picture.

With 1C/3Cburst you are required to have 100Ah min cells. Even at that
144V pack only putting out 100 or 300 burst is anemic. (Current
multiplication ends before you get out of intersection) but a 300V 100ah
pack is now 15K and around 800 lbs.

While it would be nice to have 30kwh for 85 to 100 miles
range(350wh/mile), I would rather start with 300V at 50Ah by using cells
that are rated at 10C continuous 30C burst.
This way the pack weight is cut in half and 50-60 miles
range.(300wh/mile) I do less than that daily. and the cells ability to
handle higher current would probably mean longer life.
>
>  

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[me2]

On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 09:00 -0700, Jeff Shanab wrote:

> > 300V x 600AHr x 80% = 144 KWHr, usable.
> >
> $90K/144 = $625 per usable KWHr.
>    
> LOL, is that really 4400 lbs of lithium-ion???

Where did you get 4400 pounds from ?  I haven't looked closely at the
spec sheet but...

144 KWHr / 90 watt hours / Kg = 1600 Kg = 3520 pounds.

> > I thought someone said that Tesla was getting its batteries for $300/
> > KWHr.
> >  
>
> What worries me as much as the "Chinese Factor" is the amp capacity.  It
> is just too hard to tell  from the documentation but it looks like the
> same problem I see over and over again with the larger cells. In some
> areas they say 5C-10C but other areas and all charts are at or under 1C.
> 1C continuous, 3C for 15 seconds seems typical for the larger format
> cells. They have 10C,1,2,3,4,5C curves and the 5C curves sag to a very
> level 2.95V, sweet. the 10C chart is unreadable.

Yep.

> If 5C is avail, that changes the whole picture.
>
> With 1C/3Cburst you are required to have 100Ah min cells. Even at that
> 144V pack only putting out 100 or 300 burst is anemic. (Current
> multiplication ends before you get out of intersection) but a 300V 100ah
> pack is now 15K and around 800 lbs.

300V x 100A x 80% DOD = 24 KWHr.  $15K/24 = $625 /KWHr useable.

800 lbs = 363 Kg.  24,000 KWHr / 363 Kg = 66 watt hours per Kg.

> While it would be nice to have 30kwh for 85 to 100 miles
> range(350wh/mile), I would rather start with 300V at 50Ah by using cells
> that are rated at 10C continuous 30C burst.

Right.

> This way the pack weight is cut in half and 50-60 miles
> range.(300wh/mile) I do less than that daily. and the cells ability to
> handle higher current would probably mean longer life.

Good point.


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[Neon John]

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 09:25:18 -0600, Alternative Energy Guy
<altenguy@...> wrote:

>On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 10:17 -0400, Neon John wrote:
>
>> I ran the price of the 18650 cells offered here:
>>
>> http://www.szwholesale.com/18650-32vrechargeable1865032v-p-1139.html?osCsid=10430e3440832a29d3d4c0be552642ab
>>
>> and got $439/kWh.
>
>I always wonder about quality when buying from a distributor like that.
>It makes them look like surplus instead of a brand name product.  I
>wonder if they are manufacturing defects that are still operational ?

These guys (there are several of 'em) are in Hong Kong and are buying directly
from the Chinese manufacturers.  Not rejects.  The quality is a little better
than typical chinese.  I've purchased perhaps 100 cells from them and
http://www.dealextreme.com, their red hot competitor.  Probably 5-8% have been
bad.  I haven't kept close records.  If you drop 'em a note, they'll replace
the bad ones.

Unless I negotiated a guarantee with them, I don't know that I'd buy a few
hundred cells from them.  But for the quantities that I use in flashlights
(I'm a flashahaulic too :-), small scooters and the like, you can't beat the
price.  Of course, if I were buying hundreds or thousands of cells, I'd be
negotiating directly with the mfrs.  Easy enough to find at places like
alibaba.com and chinasells.com (I think that's the name.)

Chinese manufacturing is quite interesting.  I have a client that has several
things made there.  And there is Bunnie's Blog http://www.bunniestudios.com/.
He's one of those MIT whiz kids who is now involved in manufacturing the
Chumby in China.  His experience, which he documents quite well, is similar to
ours.

The Chinese rarely understand what they're making.  They're just making
"stuff".   Bunnie likens it to teaching a very bright 4th grade class to make
things. Note where he talks about the chief of QC in the factory making the
Chumby boards not knowing what the Internet is. Notice too, where he talks
about needing to make a change to the injection molded case of the Chumby. The
little manufacturer he is using implemented the change overnight.  Imagine
trying to get that done over here!  A CNC shop dealing in die making would
"put you on their schedule".

You have to delineate every single step of the process and you can't assume
that they know anything about what you're doing.  They're fast learners and
follow directions well.

What this has to do with batteries is this.  If the cells that DXE and QCG
sell come from a factory that is making premium quality cells, say, for Sanyo
or Sony, then they'll be as good as anything you can buy here.  If the factory
is making very low cost cells for some low end consumer goods then the cell
quality will reflect that.  There are a number of high volume places like
http://www.candlepowerforums.com that hold their feet to the fire so the
quality usually varies from OK to very good.

I highly recommend reading this article

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200707/shenzhen

I consider it to be the definitive article on Chinese high tech manufacturing
today.  Much better than the PBS series of about the same name.  Look at the
SEG Electronics Market in Shenzhen, compare that to how much hassle it is to
get parts to prototype with in this country and then quit wondering why
they're kicking our butts in innovation nowadays, especially with consumer
electronics.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources -Albert Einstein

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[Lock Hughes]

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, Neon John <jgd@...> wrote:
> I highly recommend reading this article
> http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200707/shenzhen

Thanks for this Neon
lock


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[James Massey]

G'day All

This is a close look at Thunder-Sky batteries, David Roden asked the
question "did they change the chemistry (of the "12V" versions) to
favor peak current and shallow discharges?"

Here is a summary lifted from data from their datasheets downloaded
off their web pages. Hopefully the lines are short enough to not
over-run the pages:

Nominal Operating max    max   const. standard Life to weight
Ah      voltage   Charge disch disch' disch'   70%DOD    kg

LCP series:
  92Ah 3.0V-4.20V   46A   920A   276A   28.8A  >2000    2.4kg
100Ah 3.0V-4.20V   50A  1000A   300A   30A    >2000    3.0kg
200Ah 3.0V-4.20V  100A  2000A   600A   60A    >2000    5.5kg
600Ah 3.0V-4.20V  300A  6000A  1800A  200A    >2000   14.8kg
600Ah 3.0V-4.20V  300A  6000A  1200A  200A    >2000   14.0kg
(the second 600Ah is the -AHB version)

LFP series
  90Ah 2.5V-4.25V  270A   900A   270A   30A    >3000    3.0kg
160Ah 2.5V-4.25V  480A  1600A   480A   48A    >3000    5.6kg
200Ah 2.5V-4.25V  400A  2000A   400A  100A    >4000    6.0kg
260Ah 2.5V-4.25V  520A  2600A   520A  130A    >4000    8.3kg
300Ah 2.5V-4.25V  600A  3000A   600A  150A    >4000    9.5kg
400Ah 2.5V-4.25V  800A  4000A   800A  120A    >3000   13.0kg

LMP series (sizes between 60 and 400 won't display on their web site)
  60Ah 2.2V-4.35V   60A   600A   180A   20A    >500     2.5kg
400Ah 2.5V-4.3V   400A  1000A(pulse) ?? 100A >2000    13.5kg

LP (12V) series (4 cell packages), 2.5V-4.25v.p.c.
  80Ah 10V-17V    50A    900A(6sec) 150A ?  (3-10 years) 12kg
100Ah 10V-17V    50A   1000A(6sec) 100A ?  (5-10 years) 14kg
160Ah 10V-17V    90A   1000A(pulse)160A ?  (3-10 years) 25kg

Summary:
LMP series do not look to have good life expectancy, and have lower
continuous discharge current.
LP12xx may be made from LMP series cells (certainly not from LCP or
LMP cells) as they have similar characteristics to LMP cells.
LCP series have shorter life than LFP, but price may make the
difference (if less than 2/3 the price) for EV use
LFP series, 160Ah to 300Ah look to be the best type for EV use.

Yes, I know the history of TS in the USA. Yes, I know that there are
lies, damned lies and battery specifications (but from one
manufacturer you'd expect the lie.. um.. "specification parameters"
to be on the same basis.

So, a local engineer who is looking to do an EV conversion has a
relation in China who lives just a couple of hundred kilometers from
the TS factory, and is a "wheeler-dealer" type. This relation knows
not a lot about batteries, and a lot about doing deals in China, so
if he were to do a deal to get batteries for this conversion (and I'd
be able to get cells at the same time) he'd need to be 'primed' so as
to not repeat the TS/USA experience.

What cells are people buying from TS that are performing? Does TS
supply a BMS and is it worth having?

TIA

Regards

[Technik] James


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[milo0105]

Compared with our competitors, we have better quality control, 2 years quantity, as well as fantastic BMS system. Now from 10ah to 600ah single cells are available.