Kickoff question

[Anne Wilson-5]

Of all the changes I disliked when I first saw KDE 4 I have come to appreciate
all except kickoff.  I know I can use the Classic menu, but I'd really like
to understand why kickoff is the way it is.

Why is it that hovering over tabs changes the view, yet to see what is in a
sub-menu you have to click, then click < if you can't see what you wanted?  I
find kickoff so bad that I hardly use it, but then by now I generally know
the name of the application I want, so there are good alternatives.  For a
less experienced user that isn't so.

I don't believe the change was made without reason, so the question remains,
is the current version the answer to something of which I'm unaware, or is it
a work-in-progress that will fit both the (currently unappreciated) need and
the needs of users like myself?

Thanks for sparing the time to read this, and, hopefully, answer me :-)

Anne


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[Michael Rudolph-3]

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Anne Wilson
<cannewilson@...> wrote:

> Of all the changes I disliked when I first saw KDE 4 I have come to appreciate
> all except kickoff.  I know I can use the Classic menu, but I'd really like
> to understand why kickoff is the way it is.
>
> Why is it that hovering over tabs changes the view, yet to see what is in a
> sub-menu you have to click, then click < if you can't see what you wanted?  I
> find kickoff so bad that I hardly use it, but then by now I generally know
> the name of the application I want, so there are good alternatives.  For a
> less experienced user that isn't so.
>
> I don't believe the change was made without reason, so the question remains,
> is the current version the answer to something of which I'm unaware, or is it
> a work-in-progress that will fit both the (currently unappreciated) need and
> the needs of users like myself?
>
> Thanks for sparing the time to read this, and, hopefully, answer me :-)
>
> Anne

Hi Anne,

I seem to remember, that hovering tabs vs. clicking tabs was made
configurable. But I'm not completely sure about that. There was
definitely a discussion about it on panel-devel@.

Regarding the reasoning behind the design decisions for kickoff, you
might want to start your investigation at suse's site.
http://en.opensuse.org/Kickoff
They brought kickoff about in the KDE3 days, and it was later adopted
for the whole of KDE with version 4.

I hope that helps,

michael
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 28 August 2008 13:12:29 Michael Rudolph wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Anne Wilson
>
> <cannewilson@...> wrote:
> > Of all the changes I disliked when I first saw KDE 4 I have come to
> > appreciate all except kickoff.  I know I can use the Classic menu, but
> > I'd really like to understand why kickoff is the way it is.
> >
> > Why is it that hovering over tabs changes the view, yet to see what is in
> > a sub-menu you have to click, then click < if you can't see what you
> > wanted?  I find kickoff so bad that I hardly use it, but then by now I
> > generally know the name of the application I want, so there are good
> > alternatives.  For a less experienced user that isn't so.
> >
> > I don't believe the change was made without reason, so the question
> > remains, is the current version the answer to something of which I'm
> > unaware, or is it a work-in-progress that will fit both the (currently
> > unappreciated) need and the needs of users like myself?
> >
> > Thanks for sparing the time to read this, and, hopefully, answer me :-)
> >
> > Anne
>
> Hi Anne,
>
> I seem to remember, that hovering tabs vs. clicking tabs was made
> configurable. But I'm not completely sure about that. There was
> definitely a discussion about it on panel-devel@.
>
> Regarding the reasoning behind the design decisions for kickoff, you
> might want to start your investigation at suse's site.
> http://en.opensuse.org/Kickoff
> They brought kickoff about in the KDE3 days, and it was later adopted
> for the whole of KDE with version 4.
>

Yes, Mandriva also first used it in KDE3 days.

I'm not convinced, Michael.  I do totally agree that the application search is
a good addition - providing you can guess the name that you look for.  That
is the only feature of kickoff that I've seen users praise.  However, the
statement 'starting your every-day applications not found on the panel was
both too complicated and required too many mouse clicks' is simply not true.  
It took the same number of mouse clicks as it does in kickoff (assuming that
you had a reasonably large section at the top, like my 10 most-used
applications).  What's more, just using the applications dynamically made
that list, unlike kickoff where I have to right-click to manually add it.

Ah well - at least we are not forced to work with it.  Thanks for the link.  
If I can't in all conscience defend the choice I can at least now point users
to the argument in favour of it. :-)

Anne




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On Thursday 28 August 2008 08:34:56 Anne Wilson wrote:

> On Thursday 28 August 2008 13:12:29 Michael Rudolph wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Anne Wilson
> >
> > <cannewilson@...> wrote:
> > > Of all the changes I disliked when I first saw KDE 4 I have come to
> > > appreciate all except kickoff.  I know I can use the Classic menu, but
> > > I'd really like to understand why kickoff is the way it is.
> > >
> > > Why is it that hovering over tabs changes the view, yet to see what is
> > > in a sub-menu you have to click, then click < if you can't see what you
> > > wanted?  I find kickoff so bad that I hardly use it, but then by now I
> > > generally know the name of the application I want, so there are good
> > > alternatives.  For a less experienced user that isn't so.
> > >
> > > I don't believe the change was made without reason, so the question
> > > remains, is the current version the answer to something of which I'm
> > > unaware, or is it a work-in-progress that will fit both the (currently
> > > unappreciated) need and the needs of users like myself?
> > >
> > > Thanks for sparing the time to read this, and, hopefully, answer me :-)
> > >
> > > Anne
> >
> > Hi Anne,
> >
> > I seem to remember, that hovering tabs vs. clicking tabs was made
> > configurable. But I'm not completely sure about that. There was
> > definitely a discussion about it on panel-devel@.
> >
> > Regarding the reasoning behind the design decisions for kickoff, you
> > might want to start your investigation at suse's site.
> > http://en.opensuse.org/Kickoff
> > They brought kickoff about in the KDE3 days, and it was later adopted
> > for the whole of KDE with version 4.
>
> Yes, Mandriva also first used it in KDE3 days.
>
> I'm not convinced, Michael.  I do totally agree that the application search
> is a good addition - providing you can guess the name that you look for.
> That is the only feature of kickoff that I've seen users praise.  However,
> the statement 'starting your every-day applications not found on the panel
> was both too complicated and required too many mouse clicks' is simply not
> true. It took the same number of mouse clicks as it does in kickoff
> (assuming that you had a reasonably large section at the top, like my 10
> most-used applications).  What's more, just using the applications
> dynamically made that list, unlike kickoff where I have to right-click to
> manually add it.
>
> Ah well - at least we are not forced to work with it.  Thanks for the link.
> If I can't in all conscience defend the choice I can at least now point
> users to the argument in favour of it. :-)
>
> Anne

It's basically come down to "this is what we got and no one has created
anything better".  Many of the issues you pointed out have been talked to
death over the past two years.  Some of the issues had patches submitted and
got changed, other issues we couldn't agree on, and the rest are there as
always.  There are two menu replacement ideas out there (Lancelot and
Raptor), but I'm not sure what their status will be for 4.2.

--
Celeste Lyn Paul
KDE Usability Project
usability.kde.org
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 28 August 2008 13:38:22 Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> It's basically come down to "this is what we got and no one has created
> anything better".  Many of the issues you pointed out have been talked to
> death over the past two years.  Some of the issues had patches submitted
> and got changed, other issues we couldn't agree on, and the rest are there
> as always.  There are two menu replacement ideas out there (Lancelot and
> Raptor), but I'm not sure what their status will be for 4.2.

One of the attractions of linux in general and KDE in particular is the wide
choice given.  In the case of kickoff I'm sticking with something I dislike,
purely because I can check things out when answering questions.  In future
I'll be pointing questioners to the link Michael gave me, then reminding them
that they do have options if they still aren't happy.  That's fair enough.  I
just wanted to know if there were any particular reasons that I wasn't aware
of.

Thanks to both of you for talking to me.

Anne


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[AJ Venter]

On Thursday 28 August 2008 13:38:22 Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> It's basically come down to "this is what we got and no one has
> created anything better".  Many of the issues you pointed out have
> been talked to death over the past two years.  Some of the issues had
> patches submitted and got changed, other issues we couldn't agree on,
> and the rest are there as always.  There are two menu replacement
> ideas out there (Lancelot and Raptor), but I'm not sure what their status will be for 4.2.
Lancelot recently had a version 1.0 release.

Ciao
A.J.

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On Thursday 28 August 2008 08:58:38 AJ Venter wrote:

> On Thursday 28 August 2008 13:38:22 Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> > It's basically come down to "this is what we got and no one has
> > created anything better".  Many of the issues you pointed out have
> > been talked to death over the past two years.  Some of the issues had
> > patches submitted and got changed, other issues we couldn't agree on,
> > and the rest are there as always.  There are two menu replacement
> > ideas out there (Lancelot and Raptor), but I'm not sure what their status
> > will be for 4.2.
>
> Lancelot recently had a version 1.0 release.

Yes, but I haven't heard of anyone reviewing it or including it in to 4.2.

>
> Ciao
> A.J.
>
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--
Celeste Lyn Paul
KDE Usability Project
usability.kde.org
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[AJ Venter]

>>
>> Lancelot recently had a version 1.0 release.

>Yes, but I haven't heard of anyone reviewing it or including it in to
4.2.

Fairy nuff :)
I built the slackware package for it, so I've been playing with it -
it's pretty neat though I find the applications display a bit cluttered
(that s fixable though, it's just a bit of layout tweaking that's
needed). Dunno if it belongs in 4.2 though - I would say we need some
normal user feedback first - but there's still quite a bit of time for
that. I haven't tried raptor though.

Ciao
A.J.


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On Thursday 28 August 2008, Celeste Lyn Paul wrote:
> > Lancelot recently had a version 1.0 release.
>
> Yes, but I haven't heard of anyone reviewing it or including it in to 4.2.

it's part of the kdeplasma-addons package, so it will be part of 4.2. whether
it will be the default application launcher interface or not is another
question.

unless someone has the time to design and code (both responsibly) the
necessary bits to really improve things, improvements here won't happen until
4.3 as i'm already bookd for 4.2.

--
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On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:
> I'm not convinced, Michael.  I do totally agree that the application search
> is a good addition - providing you can guess the name that you look for.

try typing "process" in the tab, as in "word processor".

names are only one criterion, desktop search integration is available and
eventually we'd like to integrate runners (from krunner) into the kickoff
search as well.

it's one of those things when people don't "click" with something, they start
making assumptions about its interaction. this is fine and expected for user
support discussions, but it would be great if we could find a way to elevate
the conversation when it comes to discussing design and usability that can
impact the actual implementations.

> the statement 'starting your every-day applications not found on the panel
> was both too complicated and required too many mouse clicks' is simply not
> true.

it's really not about the number of mouse clicks as it is the ability to
present a deep hierarchy to the average user in a way that doesn't lead them
to being lost.

kickoff's applications tab was one attempt, and apparently it tested better
with Real Live People. i'm not convinced it's the best possible solution, but
i'm also certain that the traditional menu is no saviour.

> most-used applications).  What's more, just using the applications
> dynamically made that list, unlike kickoff where I have to right-click to
> manually add it.

try the Recent tab, which is exactly what you're looking for.

so the question here is, should "favourites" and "recent" be merged? should
their order be swapped?

--
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 28 August 2008 16:04:43 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:

> On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:

> > I'm not convinced, Michael. I do totally agree that the application

> > search is a good addition - providing you can guess the name that you

> > look for.

>

> try typing "process" in the tab, as in "word processor".

>

Yes, that's fine, but what about the newish user that wants that thingumyjig that lets you put files onto your webspace? He's not going to guess that gftp might be the answer - in fact ftp is probably not in his vocabulary.

I do confess, though, that the Classic menu is/was presented in some distros as one horrific long list, instead of sorting them by purpose. (Shades of XP - ughh!!!)

> names are only one criterion, desktop search integration is available and

> eventually we'd like to integrate runners (from krunner) into the kickoff

> search as well.

>

That would be nice. As an aside, after 6-7 years of constant KDE i never knew that the precursor of krunner existed. It was only after using 4.0 that I accidentally used the right-click-on-the-desktop on a 3.5 box and discovered that I needn't have been doing it from the menu at all (I have problems with function keys on some keyboards.)

> it's one of those things when people don't "click" with something, they

> start making assumptions about its interaction. this is fine and expected

> for user support discussions, but it would be great if we could find a way

> to elevate the conversation when it comes to discussing design and

> usability that can impact the actual implementations.

>

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My reaction to the click vs hover debate is that I want to hover when I'm looking around and click when I can see a place I want to stay :-)

> > the statement 'starting your every-day applications not found on the

> > panel was both too complicated and required too many mouse clicks' is

> > simply not true.

>

> it's really not about the number of mouse clicks as it is the ability to

> present a deep hierarchy to the average user in a way that doesn't lead

> them to being lost.

>

Sure - but I get hopelessly lost in kickoff :-) I can never work out where I will find anything. It's a good job I know the names of the apps.

> kickoff's applications tab was one attempt, and apparently it tested better

> with Real Live People. i'm not convinced it's the best possible solution,

> but i'm also certain that the traditional menu is no saviour.

>

> > most-used applications). What's more, just using the applications

> > dynamically made that list, unlike kickoff where I have to right-click to

> > manually add it.

>

> try the Recent tab, which is exactly what you're looking for.

>

> so the question here is, should "favourites" and "recent" be merged? should

> their order be swapped?

Is there one answer to anything? The nice thing about the Classic menu's implementation was that you could choose whether to use the space for 'most recent' or 'most used' apps. It would be awsome if that could be done - as I think most people would use one or the other. I could always try asking on a ML or two, to see how many people use both :-)

Anne

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On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:

> On Thursday 28 August 2008 16:04:43 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:
> > > I'm not convinced, Michael.  I do totally agree that the application
> > > search is a good addition - providing you can guess the name that you
> > > look for.
> >
> > try typing "process" in the tab, as in "word processor".
>
> Yes, that's fine, but what about the newish user that wants that
> thingumyjig that lets you put files onto your webspace?  He's not going to
> guess that gftp might be the answer - in fact ftp is probably not in his
> vocabulary.

i actually blogged about this a while back: we need people to go through the
application .desktop files and add more meaningful Keywords= entries. i got 2-3
contributions out of this, but the bulk of the work remains.

it's something anyone can do as it's just coming up with decent keyword and
entering them into .desktop files with a text editor =)

> I do confess, though, that the Classic menu is/was presented in some
> distros as one horrific long list, instead of sorting them by purpose.
> (Shades of XP - ughh!!!)

yep.

> > names are only one criterion, desktop search integration is available and
> > eventually we'd like to integrate runners (from krunner) into the kickoff
> > search as well.
>
> That would be nice.  As an aside, after 6-7 years of constant KDE i never
> knew that the precursor of krunner existed.  It was only after using 4.0
> that I accidentally used the right-click-on-the-desktop on a 3.5 box and
> discovered that I needn't have been doing it from the menu at all (I have
> problems with function keys on some keyboards.)

yep. =) i really want to take the command driven concept to a whole new level
on the desktop. we're not the only ones thinking this, of course. the latest
kid on the block is Mozilla Ubiquity, but that's an unsurprising development
now that their UI team is largely the boys from Humanized =)

> > it's one of those things when people don't "click" with something, they
> > start making assumptions about its interaction. this is fine and expected
> > for user support discussions, but it would be great if we could find a
> > way to elevate the conversation when it comes to discussing design and
> > usability that can impact the actual implementations.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by this.  My reaction to the click vs hover
> debate is that I want to hover when I'm looking around and click when I can
> see a place I want to stay :-)

i didn't mean a literal mouse click. i used an english idiom, sorry =/

"it's one of those things when people don't immediately understand a UI (in
this case likely due at least in part to previous experiences), they start
making further assumptions about its interaction."

which is to say, when people migrate themselves from the KMenu to Kickoff and
see "Search" they probably don't immediately think "oh, i can type anything i
want in there" but rather "i can type in application names there" =)

> > > the statement 'starting your every-day applications not found on the
> > > panel was both too complicated and required too many mouse clicks' is
> > > simply not true.
> >
> > it's really not about the number of mouse clicks as it is the ability to
> > present a deep hierarchy to the average user in a way that doesn't lead
> > them to being lost.
>
> Sure - but I get hopelessly lost in kickoff :-)

where do you get lost, exactly? and what is the use scenario you are engaged
in? (so we can possibly fix it)

> I can never work out where
> I will find anything.  It's a good job I know the names of the apps.

again, you really don't need to know the names of apps in kickoff ... =)

also note that the structure of kickoff applications tab hierarchy is identical
to the one in the kmenu. so that's interesting.

> > kickoff's applications tab was one attempt, and apparently it tested
> > better with Real Live People. i'm not convinced it's the best possible
> > solution, but i'm also certain that the traditional menu is no saviour.
> >
> > > most-used applications).  What's more, just using the applications
> > > dynamically made that list, unlike kickoff where I have to right-click
> > > to manually add it.
> >
> > try the Recent tab, which is exactly what you're looking for.
> >
> > so the question here is, should "favourites" and "recent" be merged?
> > should their order be swapped?
>
> Is there one answer to anything?  The nice thing about the Classic menu's
> implementation was that you could choose whether to use the space for 'most
> recent' or 'most used' apps.  It would be awsome if that could be done - as
> I think most people would use one or the other.  I could always try asking
> on a ML or two, to see how many people use both :-)

it would be easy enough to add those kinds of options to kickoff. the question
would be one of defaults and whether or not to put them on the same tab as
favourites or keep them in their own tab.

--
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Thursday 28 August 2008 19:41:09 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:

> On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:
> > On Thursday 28 August 2008 16:04:43 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
> > > On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:
> > > > I'm not convinced, Michael.  I do totally agree that the application
> > > > search is a good addition - providing you can guess the name that you
> > > > look for.
> > >
> > > try typing "process" in the tab, as in "word processor".
> >
> > Yes, that's fine, but what about the newish user that wants that
> > thingumyjig that lets you put files onto your webspace?  He's not going
> > to guess that gftp might be the answer - in fact ftp is probably not in
> > his vocabulary.
>
> i actually blogged about this a while back: we need people to go through
> the application .desktop files and add more meaningful Keywords= entries. i
> got 2-3 contributions out of this, but the bulk of the work remains.
>
> it's something anyone can do as it's just coming up with decent keyword and
> entering them into .desktop files with a text editor =)
>

Let me get the bulk of the userbase migration finished (no more than a week,

all being well), then I'll see if I can help.  You'll need to tell me what
you want me to do.

> > > it's really not about the number of mouse clicks as it is the ability
> > > to present a deep hierarchy to the average user in a way that doesn't
> > > lead them to being lost.
> >
> > Sure - but I get hopelessly lost in kickoff :-)
>
> where do you get lost, exactly? and what is the use scenario you are
> engaged in? (so we can possibly fix it)
>
Well, yesterday, for instance, someone asked how he could run konqueror as
root.  As usual there is more than one way, but I was quite sure that Fedora
has that possibility from kickoff.  Could I find it?  No.  I had put it onto
my Favorites tab, but I'd no idea where I found it originally.  And I
couldn't tell him to use search because I knew that just 'konqueror' would
bring up a user konq, but didn't know what word would bring up the kdesu
version.  In the end I told him that it was easier to use a root konsole to
do it.

> also note that the structure of kickoff applications tab hierarchy is
> identical to the one in the kmenu. so that's interesting.
>
Because I could hover-browse on the Classic menu it wasn't a problem.

> > > so the question here is, should "favourites" and "recent" be merged?
> > > should their order be swapped?
> >
> > Is there one answer to anything?  The nice thing about the Classic menu's
> > implementation was that you could choose whether to use the space for
> > 'most recent' or 'most used' apps.  It would be awsome if that could be
> > done - as I think most people would use one or the other.  I could always
> > try asking on a ML or two, to see how many people use both :-)
>
> it would be easy enough to add those kinds of options to kickoff. the
> question would be one of defaults and whether or not to put them on the
> same tab as favourites or keep them in their own tab.

Seriously, would you like me to do some informal statistics-gathering?

Anne


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[Benno Dielmann]

| > Is there one answer to anything?  The nice thing about the Classic menu's
| > implementation was that you could choose whether to use the space for
| > 'most recent' or 'most used' apps.  It would be awsome if that could be
| > done - as I think most people would use one or the other.  I could always
| > try asking on a ML or two, to see how many people use both :-)
|
| it would be easy enough to add those kinds of options to kickoff. the
| question would be one of defaults and whether or not to put them on the
| same tab as favourites or keep them in their own tab.

I vote in favor of keeping them separated. One thing I love about Kickoff is
the Favorites tab and that it is big and that it's first one. What I don't like
about Recently Used and Most Used collections is that you cant rely on what's
in there. In the Favorites tab, I am in control of what is where so I can
operate it almost blindly. I wouldn't like to have it's place shared with
useless (for me) unreliable icon collections.

But that's just my personal opinion.

Best wishes, Benno.
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[Michael Rudolph-3]

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Anne Wilson <cannewilson@...> wrote:

> On Thursday 28 August 2008 19:41:09 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
>> On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:
>> > On Thursday 28 August 2008 16:04:43 Aaron J. Seigo wrote:
>> > > On Thursday 28 August 2008, Anne Wilson wrote:
>> > > > I'm not convinced, Michael.  I do totally agree that the application
>> > > > search is a good addition - providing you can guess the name that you
>> > > > look for.
>> > >
>> > > try typing "process" in the tab, as in "word processor".
>> >
>> > Yes, that's fine, but what about the newish user that wants that
>> > thingumyjig that lets you put files onto your webspace?  He's not going
>> > to guess that gftp might be the answer - in fact ftp is probably not in
>> > his vocabulary.
>>
>> i actually blogged about this a while back: we need people to go through
>> the application .desktop files and add more meaningful Keywords= entries. i
>> got 2-3 contributions out of this, but the bulk of the work remains.
>>
>> it's something anyone can do as it's just coming up with decent keyword and
>> entering them into .desktop files with a text editor =)
>>
> Let me get the bulk of the userbase migration finished (no more than a week,
> all being well), then I'll see if I can help.  You'll need to tell me what
> you want me to do.

Hi Anne,

I'm pretty sure Aaron talks about this:
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2008/02/simple-but-amazingly-useful.html

If I remember correctly, he explained everything that needs to be
done, but I'm sure he'll confirm this personally anyway.

I hope that helps.

michael
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