KTip rework suggestion

Hi all,

We don't like blockers nowadays. In fact, I am sure we never liked them. From
my point of view the way tips are shown through KTip is clearly blocker for
usability. Or you read tips, or you do what you wanted to do with the
application.

On Akademy I thought we could make tips be 'parallel' with the application
usage. The idea is to give short hints to the user.

I did draw a mockup to know what you think. Tips ideally would fade in and out
while you use the application. With the close button on the right you could
just hide them.

Mockup:
http://media.ereslibre.es/2008/08/ktip.png

What do you think ?


Regards,
Rafael Fernández López.


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Hello,

> We don't like blockers nowadays. In fact, I am sure we never liked
> them.

True :-)

> From my point of view the way tips are shown through KTip is
> clearly blocker for usability.

Just to clarify -- from the text in the mockup I assume not tip itself
but "tip of the day" feature, right?

> On Akademy I thought we could make tips be 'parallel' with the
> application usage. The idea is to give short hints to the user.

MC way, yes!

> I did draw a mockup to know what you think. Tips ideally would fade
> in and out while you use the application. With the close button on
> the right you could just hide them.
>
> Mockup:
> http://media.ereslibre.es/2008/08/ktip.png
>
> What do you think ?

Looks great, finally I could use ToD :-). Few suggestions though:
a) fading away -- I am against it -- change means animation, animation
means user is focusing on ToD instead of text, this is clear case of
distraction, so it makes more harm then good, I rather say ToD should
be fixed per document unless user uses <= => button (prev/next ToD)
b) close button should be next to the text, I spotted this only
because you mentioned closing (currently it looks more like "document
close")
c) a lot of general information is displayed in statusbar, near the
menu the actions are presented, thus I think ToD should be placed at
the bottom (or be configurable)
ad.c) or be part of status bar -- but this requires configurable
status bar, but it is much more powerful, user could configure three
rows (example) status bar and place pieces what she/he likes where
she/he likes

Cheers,

PS. Skipping kde-core-devel because I am not subscribed there.
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Rafael Fernández López wrote:
> I did draw a mockup to know what you think. Tips ideally would fade in and out
> while you use the application. With the close button on the right you could
> just hide them.
>
> Mockup:
> http://media.ereslibre.es/2008/08/ktip.png

Blocking tip of the day is indeed annoying. I like the idea, but I have
two suggestions:
- Position it at the bottom of the window. This makes it less intrusive
and makes it possible to have it go away without moving the whole window
content.

- Use a tooltip palette for it. This would help the user associate this
part of the ui with tips, it would also logically group the text with
the close button on the far right.

Aurélien
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Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

On Wednesday 20 August 2008, Michael Pyne wrote:

> I like the idea but you may also want to get kde-usability involved.

Someone has politely reminded me that your original email was also sent to kde-usability so I apologize for missing that. :)

Regards,

- Michael Pyne

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On Thursday 21 August 2008 16:46:13 Rafael Fernández López wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have seen that probably adding it on the bottom gets us into some
> problems (for instance Konqueror allows you to split the views, so the
> toolbar is on the central widget and not as a statusbar for a reason), also
> Dolphin has its status bar on the central widget...
>
> So, adding it on the top is a good thing IMHO for not making things harder.
>
> The look, IMHO is really nice:
> http://media.ereslibre.es/2008/08/ktipreworktop.png
> http://media.ereslibre.es/2008/08/ktipreworktop2.png

I prefer the the top to the bottom as well.  It is more noticeable.  Could
this have multipurpose besides just tips?

Firefox's save password integration is very nice because it allows you load
the page while you think about saving the password.  Some people may skip
saving a password because they aren't sure if it is correct (and not realize
they can replace it with the correct password later).  This workflow allows
them to verify the password before they have to make a decision.

It could also be a good place to put security warnings and other things.  
Non-intrusive, yet noticeable.

>
> I have to make it actually read the tip database (that won't be hard, I
> guess). Also, probably give it a tip appearance. I have tried that and I
> don't like the results (at least with Oxygen). I think it looks much nicer
> as the rest of the dialog.
>
> Ideas ? Suggestions ?
>
>
> Regards,
> Rafael Fernández López.

--
Celeste Lyn Paul
KDE Usability Project
usability.kde.org
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Hello,

>  Could this have multipurpose besides just tips?
> Firefox's save password integration is very nice because it allows
> you load the page while you think about saving the password.  

This has nothing to do with save-password dialog placement. Besides --
there is now too much complexity -- if you use the same element for
every info what should be displayed when several sources activate --
save-password and security warning for example.

> It could also be a good place to put security warnings and other
> things. Non-intrusive, yet noticeable.

This looks like very good idea, but then "close" meaning should be
rethought (I am not writting any suggestions because I don't have
anything clever in mind).

If this will go in this direction some time ago I proposed something
similar with log feature (for k3b purposes) so user could click on
this "widget" and see the history of warnings, or app information.

Cheers,
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[Anne Wilson-5]

On Friday 22 August 2008 09:45:05 Maciej Pilichowski wrote:
> >  Could this have multipurpose besides just tips?
> > Firefox's save password integration is very nice because it allows
> > you load the page while you think about saving the password.  
>
> This has nothing to do with save-password dialog placement. Besides --
> there is now too much complexity -- if you use the same element for
> every info what should be displayed when several sources activate --
> save-password and security warning for example.

As a user I would much prefer to have all things requiring my attention in one
place, rather than separate places for different types of dialogue/warning.

Anne


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Hello,

> > >  Could this have multipurpose besides just tips?
> > > Firefox's save password integration is very nice because it
> > > allows you load the page while you think about saving the
> > > password.
> >
> > This has nothing to do with save-password dialog placement.
> > Besides -- there is now too much complexity -- if you use the
> > same element for every info what should be displayed when several
> > sources activate -- save-password and security warning for
> > example.
>
> As a user I would much prefer to have all things requiring my
> attention in one place, rather than separate places for different
> types of dialogue/warning.

Wished behaviour is one thing, ergonomic design is another. Test
case -- konq. is about to save entered password, there is a security
problem, and javascript code makes konq. freeze. So -- you have three
messages at the same time.
a) show them all (notice: you will have to use more space)
b) show them one by one
b.1) in time order
b.2) in importance order (what kind?)
c) ?

imho this is too much -- this new ktip is pretty good for presenting
static information, but should not be overused for interaction with
the user because it leads to complexity and this leads to more
problems than it originally solved.

Cheers,
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On Friday 22 August 2008 11:43:33 Maciej Pilichowski wrote:

> Hello,
>
> > > >  Could this have multipurpose besides just tips?
> > > > Firefox's save password integration is very nice because it
> > > > allows you load the page while you think about saving the
> > > > password.
> > >
> > > This has nothing to do with save-password dialog placement.
> > > Besides -- there is now too much complexity -- if you use the
> > > same element for every info what should be displayed when several
> > > sources activate -- save-password and security warning for
> > > example.
> >
> > As a user I would much prefer to have all things requiring my
> > attention in one place, rather than separate places for different
> > types of dialogue/warning.
>
> Wished behaviour is one thing, ergonomic design is another. Test
> case -- konq. is about to save entered password, there is a security
> problem, and javascript code makes konq. freeze. So -- you have three
> messages at the same time.
> a) show them all (notice: you will have to use more space)
> b) show them one by one
> b.1) in time order
> b.2) in importance order (what kind?)
> c) ?

The warning message should take precedence and be an alert, not integrated
message.  It is important for the user to act on the message and so that is
when it is OK to be more disruptive.

The point of having integrated messages for non-critical information is to be
less intrusive.  

Ktips and other help information is non-critical.  Saving a password is
non-critical.  Stopping Javascript from crashing Konqueror is critical and so
a different message notification is necessary and required.

>
> imho this is too much -- this new ktip is pretty good for presenting
> static information, but should not be overused for interaction with
> the user because it leads to complexity and this leads to more
> problems than it originally solved.
>
> Cheers,
> _______________________________________________
> kde-usability mailing list
> kde-usability@...
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usability

--
Celeste Lyn Paul
KDE Usability Project
usability.kde.org
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Hello,

> The point of having integrated messages for non-critical
> information is to be less intrusive.

The problem with password-save confirmation is this, that this
question is the second step of entering password. It is a sequence.

I (personally) don't find useful when beginning of a sequence is
somewhere










                        and the next part of the sequence is somewhere
else. With Ktip this will be the case, with dialog (like
currently) -- no. So there is benefit of keeping dialog -- because
you enter login/password and the next step is displayed in front of
your eyes. You cannot miss it.

And I observed weekend users -- they can read a portion of the screen,
but have difficulties in reading the entire screen. They often
(almost always) miss misplaced notifications, so I bet with Ktip used
as save-password confirmation they end up with dangling question till
closing konq. and probably not knowing that the saving was possible.
(Note that you have to kill the question also when user changes the
page -- so this lead also to annoyance for all users "oh, I get to
this link and then I confirm the save").


Besides -- you said about being "not intrusive". If you answer the
question in both cases (dialog or ktip), well, not much difference.
But with dialog you cannot ignore the question, thus you don't have
to answer this question again. With ktip you can by accident close
konq. with question unanswered, so the next time not only you have to
enter login/password again but you get the confirmation again. Well,
I prefer to see something once and have guarantee of "job well done"  
rather than having system that polite that it allows to forget my
data because it didn't want to interrupt me.

While I like being in control and not interrupted while I am working,
entering password _is_ current work, so I prefer a little guidance
there. After all I am only a human, so I can forget to do this or
that. And it would be bad if computer silently "helps" me in doing
so.

Cheers,

PS. Sorry for lengthy mail :-)
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